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Evanescent Grace.
Don't know your fearless leader Calvin so well then, if you haven't heard of it.
John Calvin explains: “Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.” (3.2.11, Institutes,
Yeah it sounds like nonsense to me too.
Actually makes perfect Biblical sense.Yeah it sounds like nonsense to me too.
Lol. Jesus taught this in a parable:Whoa thank you very much for this quote. Calvin really was a heretic if he truly believed in this concept because right now he's just making God look like the Sith Lord Emperor Palpatine.
Effervescent meaning: of a liquid) giving off bubbles; fizzy.Note you used Effervescent grace. Makes a difference.
Do you have this quote in full without all the [...]?
Note you used Effervescent grace. Makes a difference.
Do you have this quote in full without all the [...]?
I'll try to look up the full quote when I'm not on my phone.
I'll try to look up the full quote when I'm not on my phone.
No need. Calvin was referring to the parable of the soils and wheat and tares.Effervescent meaning: of a liquid) giving off bubbles; fizzy.
Works for me.A bubbly faith that goes flat after a while.
I'll try to look up the full quote when I'm not on my phone.
What’s interesting is Arminius would probably have no problem with this quote from Calvin. Interesting.“The reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy, they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy. In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.” – John Calvin (Book 3, Chapter 2:11)
“As by the revolt of the first man, the image of God could be effaced from his mind and soul, so there is nothing strange in His shedding some rays of grace on the reprobate, and afterwards allowing these to be extinguished.” – John Calvin (Book 3, Chapter 2:12)
“God is undoubtedly ready to pardon whenever the sinner turns. Therefore, he does not will his death, in so far as he wills repentance. But experience shows that this will, for the repentance of those whom he invites to himself, is not such as to make him touch all their hearts. Still, it cannot be said that he acts deceitfully; for though the external word only renders, those who hear it, and do not obey it, inexcusable, it is still truly regarded as an evidence of the grace by which he reconciles men to himself.” – John Calvin (Book 3, Chapter 24:15)
There is one example in that quote above.
Where does even repentance come from?
Acts 11: NASB
17“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”18When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
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Here's a little tidbit that most Reformer's neglect to tell you. John Calvin was not the father of the Reformed tradition. As a matter of fact he never even wanted to be remembered the way he is today. He encouraged people who subscribed to his way of thinking to integrate within other churches. It was his followers who would go on to create TULIP and the theology of Calvinism while adding onto their own little sprinkles and removing some of the more questionable beliefs that Calvin possessedThat makes no sense in the context of irresistible grace, though. Why would God temporarily enlighten those he never intended to regenerate?
Temporary enlightenment is what Arminius taught as prevenient grace. What I’m saying is that is that the Calvin quote is probably the closest the two theologies come.That makes no sense in the context of irresistible grace, though. Why would God temporarily enlighten those he never intended to regenerate?
This thread is not intended to be so much a round-and-round debate (though that could happen) but rather to "get the definitions on the table".
Essentially it is the issue of whether the Gospel invitation is for all - and "whosoever will" or is it a "selection" system where God "Selects" some for salvation and simply fails to select others thus God is the only actor/determination and the choice of the lost person is not a factor that determines anything at all.
The arminian model is an open system... where the Gospel is open to all "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.
The Calvinist model is one where God pre-selects those He is willing to save ... a selection that has nothing at all to do with the person selected.
In any case this thread is here for "the definitions".
It is not hurtful to either side - to be able to define from scripture what the point is on each side.
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In Arminianism free will exists because of the supernatural act of God in "drawing all mankind unto Him" John 12:32 and as a result we have
Evangelism where "we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5
Evangelism where it is not God's WILL that ANY should perish (2 Peter 3) and yet only 'the FEW' of Matthew 7 are ultimately saved?
Evangelism where Christ "is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
Evangelism where "God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave.."... yes really?
Evangelism where "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14?
And when someone chooses to be lost anyway God's response is
Evangelism where "he came to His own and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
Evangelism where Christ laments "Oh Jerusalem .. how I WANTED to spare your children.. but YOU would not"? Matt 23
He laments - "what more could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4
I will leave it to Calvinists to post the texts that they feel define Calvinism's view of evangelism.
But I have seen this offered in the past (I think you have to use some significant degree of inference to get to Calvinism in these texts)
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Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Acts 13
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
44The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
47 For this is what the LORD has commanded us: "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region. 50But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium. 52And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
As I understand it - In Calvinism - if you choose salvation and that "makes a difference" then God is deprived of some level of glory/honor and this is one reason they object to the Arminian form of the Gospel.
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1. BTW two points to remember: - Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that the supernatural drawing of God is more than sufficient to enable all the choice that depravity disables. That is not "the difference" between the two views.
2. Highly subjective summations/condemnation of "the other view" that you do not share - is not considered a compelling form of definition or debate, nor is it accepted by those who do not already agree with you - as proof of anything.
So Universalism?In some contexts - like the one Paul uses above - all of humanity is either "Jew" or "Gentile" so then if God is granting repentance that leads to life to both groups - that is all mankind.
Honestly Gwen just have faith in Jesus and grow in his grace knowing that you are saved. It's not the worse thing in the world if you don't know everything about the doctrines of calvinism and arminianism. It's the stupidest debate in the church's history imoThank you for raising this issue. It has been just yonks since I was familiar with this issue. In reading the post, I would say that I am an Armenian. The center of my belief is Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? The scripture predates so many issues and Jesus the Christ, but is still the basis of a belief pleasing to God. Everything else is added to this.
And, we all know folk who are not just or merciful. Those who want to lead God will never experience his mercy perhaps.
I would just add we have to continue to learn about God. We must read the Bible cover to cover. At least every 12-18 months.Honestly Gwen just have faith in Jesus and grow in his grace knowing that you are saved. It's not the worse thing in the world if you don't know everything about the doctrines of calvinism and arminianism. It's the stupidest debate in the church's history imo
You may think whatever you like but everything has context. The truth is you don't actually think that. If a black person in 1955 drank from a water fountain after I said, "Anyone is free to drink from that white-only water fountain," they know that's not true. They know that "anyone" has context and there are specific people to whom the "anyone" applies others to whom it does not apply.I kinda think anyone means anyone.
Try that if you're black in white supremacist congregation. Try that if you're leper or have ebola.If you get up in front of the church and say, anyone is invited to the potluck, I'm not going to assume you only mean the people in the congregation at that moment.
Prevenient Grace is not the same thing as 'Temporary Enlightenment." Prevenient Grace is the doctrine that while someone may be living a life in total depravity the spirit of God is still able to awaken them to their sin state and bring about an awareness of who God is and enables them to make the choice to either accept him or reject him which leads to becoming born again and being forgiven of their sins which is what is known as God's justifying grace.Temporary enlightenment is what Arminius taught as prevenient grace. What I’m saying is that is that the Calvin quote is probably the closest the two theologies come.
Actually Dave, you can believe that you are saved but your salvation is ultimately in God's hands. As the text states, many are called but few are chosen.I know I'm saved and bet all that I had on it.
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