Why did the Lord come to the earth?

[Ligurian]

So before you can receive the Holy Spirit you must learn not to invite friends, family or neighbours home for a meal but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars?
You must learn never so much as to hint to anyone if you fast?
If someone wanted to borrow from you, you must learn to give to them without expecting anything back?
You must really learn from your heart to love people who may be unkind to you and persecute you?
You must learn to give someone who stole from you more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them?
You must learn to leap for joy if you are persecuted?

I could go on and on, but in your view all of the above must be learnt and done without the Holy Spirit's help for you cannot receive the Spirit until you have obeyed the above commands? And according to what you quoted, I am to take it you do not love Jesus if you do not obey his above commands alongside all the others mentioned in the Gospels?
The new covenant did not begin until Jesus had risen from the dead
Jesus did not come to destroy the law, he came to end righteousness of obeying the law, quite a difference.

Quite a stretch.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets;

There's no law in that foundation... who are the "apostles" of Paul?


'Cuz they're definitely not the ones who taught all of this:

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. ...

Matthew 7:24-25 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

John 14:21 He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.

John 12:50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Matthew 26:27 And He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Matthew 28:18-20 16 Then the Eleven Disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All authority is given unto Me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word, and hast not denied My name. (name = character, authority)

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

You didnt confirm if you yourself obey the commandments I quoted to you, possibly it slipped your memory. Only according to your previous post, if you do not you do not have the Holy Spirit, neither can you love Jesus according to your quote I imagine. I will put them up again for you:
So before you can receive the Holy Spirit you must learn not to invite friends, family or neighbours home for a meal but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars?
You must learn never so much as to hint to anyone if you fast?
If someone wanted to borrow from you, you must learn to give to them without expecting anything back?
You must really learn from your heart to love people who may be unkind to you and persecute you?
You must learn to give someone who stole from you more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them?
You must learn to leap for joy if you are persecuted?

I could go on and on, but in your view all of the above must be learnt and done without the Holy Spirit's help for you cannot receive the Spirit until you have obeyed the above commands? And according to what you quoted, I am to take it you do not love Jesus if you do not obey his above commands alongside all the others mentioned in the Gospels?

You don't actually quote the Gospel of the Kingdom... instead, you mangle them by saying what you imagine to be true.

And I could go on and on showing you all the verses which prove that the gospel to the gentiles isn't even close to what Jesus teaches the lost sheep of the House of Israel... but you've yet to acknowledge even three:

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[michael21]

You don't actually quote the Gospel of the Kingdom... instead, you mangle them by saying what you imagine to be true.

And I could go on and on showing you all the verses which prove that the gospel to the gentiles isn't even close to what Jesus teaches the lost sheep of the House of Israel... but you've yet to acknowledge even three:

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

No response again to the point made I see. I hope you are not requiring of others what you do not require of yourself. Jesus reserved his harshest words for the religious who acted that way

 

[.Jeremiah.]

So before you can receive the Holy Spirit you must learn not to invite friends, family or neighbours home for a meal but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars?
You must learn never so much as to hint to anyone if you fast?
If someone wanted to borrow from you, you must learn to give to them without expecting anything back?
You must really learn from your heart to love people who may be unkind to you and persecute you?
You must learn to give someone who stole from you more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them?
You must learn to leap for joy if you are persecuted?

I could go on and on, but in your view all of the above must be learnt and done without the Holy Spirit's help for you cannot receive the Spirit until you have obeyed the above commands? And according to what you quoted, I am to take it you do not love Jesus if you do not obey his above commands alongside all the others mentioned in the Gospels?
The new covenant did not begin until Jesus had risen from the dead
Jesus did not come to destroy the law, he came to end righteousness of obeying the law, quite a difference.

I must agree with Ligurian; you MUST keep his commandments, or you don’t love him. It’s completely obvious to me, because the Lord said it with his own mouth, unless you don’t believe Luke, Matthew, Mark and Moses?

It is written pretty straightforward in many places.

I am wondering how people understand the concept of loving the Lord? It’s really quite simple to me.
And it doesn’t come from saying it.
I can say “I’m the queen of England”, but that doesn’t make it so.
Only my actions can give proof of my claims.

 

[michael21]

I must agree with Ligurian; you MUST keep his commandments, or you don’t love him. I.

OK
So do you obey all of the following, alongside all the other literal commands of Christ in the Gospels? I can quote more if you like
You do not to invite friends, family or neighbours home for a meal but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars?
You never so much as to hint to anyone if you fast?
If someone wanted to borrow from you, you give to them without expecting anything back?
You from your heart love people who may be unkind to you and persecute you?
You would give someone who stole from you more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them?
You would leap for joy if you are persecuted?
Only an honest answer would be following Christ's teaching wouldn't it?

 

[.Jeremiah.]

OK
So do you obey all of the following, alongside all the other literal commands of Christ in the Gospels? I can quote more if you like
You do not to invite friends, family or neighbours home for a meal but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars?
You never so much as to hint to anyone if you fast?
If someone wanted to borrow from you, you give to them without expecting anything back?
You from your heart love people who may be unkind to you and persecute you?
You would give someone who stole from you more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them?
You would leap for joy if you are persecuted?
Only an honest answer would be following Christ's teaching wouldn't it?

Wow.

It appears to me that you just don’t get it.

I doubt you will believe if I quote some verses FROM the Lord, to support what I believe.

 

[.Jeremiah.]

OK
So do you obey all of the following, alongside all the other literal commands of Christ in the Gospels? I can quote more if you like
You do not to invite friends, family or neighbours home for a meal but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars?
You never so much as to hint to anyone if you fast?
If someone wanted to borrow from you, you give to them without expecting anything back?
You from your heart love people who may be unkind to you and persecute you?
You would give someone who stole from you more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them?
You would leap for joy if you are persecuted?
Only an honest answer would be following Christ's teaching wouldn't it?

Matthew, Mark, Luke and Leviticus all say the same thing.

 

[Ligurian]

Jesus did not come to destroy the law, he came to end righteousness of obeying the law, quite a difference.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

I am to take it you do not love Jesus if you do not obey his above commands alongside all the others mentioned in the Gospels?

You don't actually quote the Gospel of the Kingdom...
instead, you mangle them by saying what you imagine to be true.

No response again to the point made I see. I hope you are not requiring of others what you do not require of yourself. Jesus reserved his harshest words for the religious who acted that way

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

 

[michael21]

Matthew, Mark, Luke and Leviticus all say the same thing.

I see from your two replies you are unable to confirm you obey the commandments of Christ put before you. Do I take it from your scripture quotation you do not love Jesus?

 

[michael21]

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

It appears two people who insist Christ's literal commands in the Gospels must be obeyed in order to show you love Jesus cannot themselves confirm they obey Jesus commands put before them

 

[Ligurian]

OK
So do you obey all of the following, alongside all the other literal commands of Christ in the Gospels? I can quote

Quote: To repeat or copy (words from a source such as a book), usually with acknowledgment of the source.

Paraphrase: The adaptation or alteration of a text or quotation to serve a different purpose from that of the original.

Matthew 22:15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle Him in [his] talk.

 

[Ligurian]

Wow.

It appears to me that you just don’t get it.

I doubt you will believe if I quote some verses FROM the Lord, to support what I believe.

Do you understand this parable, .Jeremiah.?

Matthew 13:3 And He spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when He sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

 

[Ligurian]

It appears two people who insist Christ's literal commands in the Gospels must be obeyed in order to show you love Jesus cannot themselves confirm they obey Jesus commands put before them

Unfortunatley, on websites such as these people never can admit to error

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.KJV

 

[michael21]

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.KJV

If you cannot confirm you yourself obey Jesus commands when they are put to you, it surprises me you quote the verse you do

 

[michael21]

Lets help you out here:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal 6:2
You obey the law by loving others, the more you love them the more naturally you obey the law. Doesn't work if you look to individual commandments in the Gospels and insist they individually must be obeyed, you yourself are always guilty that way.
Love fulfills the law

 

[Ligurian]

OK
You do not to invite friends, family or neighbours home for a meal but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars?
You never so much as to hint to anyone if you fast?
If someone wanted to borrow from you, you give to them without expecting anything back?
You from your heart love people who may be unkind to you and persecute you?
You would give someone who stole from you more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them?
You would leap for joy if you are persecuted?

Dunno where you got your 1st and 5th not-really-quotes from...
but these actual quotes are from Matthew, KJV:

6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(He doesn't say from the heart... if you're hoping for love by persecuting... Revelation 11:12 their enemies John 17:9 I pray not for the world)

5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
(He doesn't say leap for joy... but He does say who the persecuters are... and what happens to them. Matthew 18:7 woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!)

Matthew 10:6-42, is called Jesus' Commandments in Matthew 11:1.

... and all through the Gospel of the Father.

1 Peter 4:17-18 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the Gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

James 1:18 Of his own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. ("faith without works is dead")

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (Esaias 40:3, John 1:23)

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of Eternal Life.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

This is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

 

[michael21]

Dunno where you got your 1st and 5th not-really-quotes from...
but these actual quotes are from Matthew, KJV:

6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(He doesn't say from the heart... if you're hoping for love by persecuting... Revelation 11:12 their enemies John 17:9 I pray not for the world)

5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
(He doesn't say leap for joy... but He does say who the persecuters are... and what happens to them. Matthew 18:7 woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!)

Matthew 10:6-42, is called Jesus' Commandments in Matthew 11:1.

... and all through the Gospel of the Father.

1 Peter 4:17-18 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the Gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

James 1:18 Of his own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. ("faith without works is dead")

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (Esaias 40:3, John 1:23)

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of Eternal Life.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

This is the Gospel of the Kingdom.

why do you keep this up? You cannot confirm you obey Christ's commands put to you can you? Strange

 

[Ligurian]

Lets help you out here:
Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal 6:2
You obey the law by loving others, the more you love them the more naturally you obey the law.

Doesn't work if you look to individual commandments in the Gospels and insist they individually must be obeyed, you yourself are always guilty that way.
Love fulfills the law

I'm glad you see the difference between Paul's "Christ crucified" and Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom of God. Galatians 2:7-9

 

[Clare73]

Please don’t get offended from my post here.

My goal is to learn. I am quite new to Christianity and still learning.

My problem is possibly that I have a deep thirst to learn more about the Lord. All the time. I study the Bible virtually every day.

Today, during my study, something new came to me. Oddly, a concept that was causing me some mental anguish was relieved when reading a chapter in Zechariah. I surely wasn’t expecting it, but it led me into a further search. I decided to put my findings into words and post it here. I am seeking constructive comments and guidance.

Personally, I focus primarily on the OT, and heavily on the gospels, particularly the words of Jesus. If you have information to assist me, please use those portions of our beautiful Bible. Thanks to all.

So here we go:


It doesn’t seem to make sense that Jesus died on the cross for our sins.


Let’s examine this concept from statements in the gospels which give us information relative to the life of Jesus. I will considerably simplify this for brevity.


Jesus was born.


At age 12, he visits the temple.


He is a carpenter until age 30.


When he was around 30 years old, he is baptized and begins a ministry.


From this point until his day of crucifixion he traveled around Judea; enlisted some followers, performed miracles, taught the people, schooled the pharisees, and had a few temptations.


Let’s now focus on the final day.


It appears that some people think that Jesus’ purpose was to die on a cross for the sins of some people. Let’s examine this claim.


First, it must be that the Lord came to the earth for some purpose.

Unless there is a purpose, why do anything?

We probably all agree that the Lord had a purpose, but what is that purpose?

After the arrival on earth, the Lord proceeded to exercise various means available to him to reach his intended result.

And when the result occurs, following his purpose, then the purpose has been completed, or finished.


Matthew 5:17-18: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


(The law and prophets are the Christian Old Testament.)

Which are the ONLY scriptures that Jesus ever spoke of.


From the above, it appears that we can see the purpose.

His purpose was stated by the Lord himself, so hopefully, we cannot disagree.


Now, what exactly MUST be fulfilled? Is it a few select verses here and there?


John 5:39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


The Lord himself again tells us the answer. ALL the scriptures testify of him, then all must be fulfilled. What are these scriptures he speaks about? Most people would probably conclude that they are what Christians refer to as the Old Testament. That’s it.


The life of Jesus and his work are spoken of throughout the Scriptures, there is no doubt.


So the purpose of the Lord, fulfilling the scriptures, would be his ‘enactment’ of all events in those scriptures. When is this purpose, then, completed?


Many times in the gospels the Lord speaks about fulfilling the scriptures. The night before his death, he chastened Peter, after Peter cut an ear off a servant:


Matthew 26:52-54 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


The final time on the cross:


John 19:24 24. They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.


And it continues:


John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.


We see that the purpose that the Lord came for was accomplished.


After being accomplished, Jesus spoke his final words:


John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

“It is finished”.
His final words tell us that his purpose was finished.
Nothing else to do, so Jesus “gave up the ghost”
He gave his own life, no one on earth took it.
He had accomplished his purpose.

The death of the empty body hanging on the cross came AFTER his purpose was finished.
It appears that the death is merely the end of the earthly body, since the purpose of Jesus was accomplished by the spirit within, which was released by him just before his death.

Jesus said: "The Son of Man came to give his life as a ransom for many." Matthew 20:28.

His purpose was finished by his atoning death.

Rather transparent and flimsy attempt to unseat the atoning death of Christ for the sake of an heretical theology.

 

[Guojing]

I hear what you’re saying.

However (I dislike using that word), I really prefer to listen to what the Lord says.

But I do understand how Paul’s words speak dearly to religion.

My wife and I were studying a concept from Romans earlier today.
I don’t dismiss Paul, there are many wonderful comments from him, but I prefer the Lord’s own words.

I have seen way too many instances where alleged Christians use Paul’s misunderstood words for evil deeds, while disregarding what the Lord says on the subject.

Strange though, one time in a Bible study, someone brought up something that he wanted to do, that I thought was wrong.
I didn’t say it was wrong, instead I quoted a beautiful verse from Paul.
The person did not recognize what Paul was saying because it conflicted with his own desire.

Since, I’m old and relatively new to the Lord’s kingdom, I will have to limit what I read. When I read the Bible, I do so to understand it.
There are times, when my wife and I read a verse, and spend an hour discussing it.

One year in a Bible study, we all were going to read the Bible on a daily basis. There was a book that got you through the Bible in one year.
So on January 1 we started, and is all we did was take turns reading verses. I like to read and understand what the Lord is saying.

You sound like a red letter Christian? Red Letter Christians – Staying true to the foundation of combining Jesus and justice, Red Letter Christians mobilizes individuals into a movement of believers who live out Jesus’ counter-cultural teachings.

 

[Ligurian]

why do you keep this up? You cannot confirm you obey Christ's commands put to you can you? Strange

Because you can't admit that you didn't quote anything, and I refuse to bow down to your man-made words.