Why did Jesus need to die?

[Paul of Eugene OR]

But God did sin, didn't he?
So then... Jesus did not actually atone for our sins, did he? . . . . .
.

You almost have it here. The truth about the need for Christ's death on the cross is astonishing and scandalous.

God freely forgives sin (for those who repent, of course, not just sinners who regret being caught) . . . . and He doesn't require their death.

But that is contrary to the law. The law would require their punishment.

So God is guilty of breaking the law by accepting sinners. HE is therefore . . . guilty.

This is the scandal and the astonishment.

HE pays the penalty for HIS OWN SIN . . . the sin of accepting us . . . by His death on the cross.

And so He is not guilty after all, having accepted . . and paid . . . the penalty.

Most are not ready to understand this and so the reason for the cross comes out as "paying for our sins".

 

[Alla27]

You almost have it here. The truth about the need for Christ's death on the cross is astonishing and scandalous.
God freely forgives sin (for those who repent, of course, not just sinners who regret being caught) . . . . and He doesn't require their death.
But that is contrary to the law. The law would require their punishment.
So God is guilty of breaking the law by accepting sinners. HE is therefore . . . guilty.

What?! God is a sinner?! God breaks law?! did you just made this up? or is this biblical claim?

This is the scandal and the astonishment.

Duh.

HE pays the penalty for HIS OWN SIN . . . the sin of accepting us . . . by His death on the cross.

Please, give me at least one verse in the Bible where God claims that He is a sinner and He paid for His own sin?

Most are not ready to understand this and so the reason for the cross comes out as "paying for our sins".

May be because there is no such claim from God.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

What?! God is a sinner?! God breaks law?! did you just made this up? or is this biblical claim?

Duh.

Please, give me at least one verse in the Bible where God claims that He is a sinner and He paid for His own sin?


May be because there is no such claim from God.

If you prefer to insist that it is merely a desire of God to see somebody die since there was sin . . . but anybody's death will do, not necessarily that of the sinner . . . go right ahead and see it that way.

But notice . . . the results are exactly the same.

 

[Alla27]

sam

If you prefer to insist that it is merely a desire of God to see somebody die since there was sin . . . but anybody's death will do, not necessarily that of the sinner . . . go right ahead and see it that way.

But notice . . . the results are exactly the same.

It doesn't matter what I prefer. I only asked you: where does God claim that He is a sinner(He breaks the law) and that He died for His own sin? I wouldn't mind if you just told me that you made it up and that it is not biblical claim.
When I die I will pay price for my own sins. And no other sinner can redeem me. (according to you God sinned). But how can I be forgiven(Mercy of God) that at the same time God would not rob Justice?

 

[-57]

Why shouldn't He?

Good question: why should God accept my payment for my sins? Hmm. May be because He is the author of this kind of payment? Why shouldn't God accept something He created Himself? like penalty for ANY sin is death.

Are you innocent? Jesus is. Have you fulfilled the law? Jesus did. Have you ever sinned? Jesus didn't.
So, you think you can pay the price? Where does the bible teach you can?

 

[-57]

are you saying that some eternal things have a beginning? how does it make them eternal then?

Yup. Eternal into the future. Not the past like Jesus was.

 

[Alla27]

Are you innocent? Jesus is. Have you fulfilled the law? Jesus did. Have you ever sinned? Jesus didn't.
So, you think you can pay the price? Where does the bible teach you can?

Yes, I have sinned I will pay the price when I am dead. Death is the price for all my sins. But how can I be redeemed, forgiven, saved which is Mercy of God so at the same time God would not rob Justice?
If God the Father forgives me after I paid for my sins(I died) then the moment He forgives me He robs Justice. Can God rob Justice and still be Just?

 

[-57]

where does it say here that it is God's plan that someone had to be killed to pay for sins of others?
Let's say you tell me that you will go to dangerous place. I know the place, I know people of this place. I tell myself: "Oh, he will be robbed and killed"
Do I just foretell the future fact or this is my plan that you have to be robbed and killed?
Where did God claim that it was His PLAN that His Son had to be killed by someone in order to take sins of others upon Himself? Or is this just your own understanding/ideas?

Isaiah 53. Did you read it? If so I would re-read it.

I am not saying anything. I am not allowed to share LDS Doctrine here.
So, where does God of Israel claim that it was His plan that in order for Christ to take upon Himself my sins or your sins He had to be killed or dead?

Your question clearly indicates you didn't read Isaiah 53.

 

[Alla27]

Yup. Eternal into the future. Not the past like Jesus was.

So, if God the Father is eternal it means He is the future but not the past. Correct?
how is something that has the beginning can be called eternal?

 

[-57]

Yes, when I am dead. Death is the price for all my sins. But how can I be redeemed, forgiven, saved which is Mercy of God so at the same time God would not rob Justice?
If God the Father forgives me after I paid for my sins(I died) then the moment He forgives me He robs Justice. Can God rob Justice and still be Just?

You can't.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

You post as if you can get to the Father on your own.

 

[-57]

So, if God the Father is eternal it means He is the future but not the past. Correct?
how is something that has the beginning can be called eternal?

God the Father is eternal from the past and into the future. So is Jesus as well as the Holy Spirit
You on the other hand will be eternal into the future. Eternal with God or eternally separated.

 

[Alla27]

Isaiah 53. Did you read it? If so I would re-read it.
Your question clearly indicates you didn't read Isaiah 53.

Please, tell me which verse particular indicates that Christ had to be killed or dead in order to take our sins upon Himself? Where does it say(verse please) that God planned that in order for Christ to take our sins upon Himself He had to be killed or dead.

P.S. If God knew that Jesus would be killed by men He could foretell this future fact through Isaiah. But where did Isaiah say that Christ HAD to be killed(dead) in order to take our sins upon Himself? verse, please.

 

[Alla27]

God the Father is eternal from the past and into the future. So is Jesus as well as the Holy Spirit
You on the other hand will be eternal into the future. Eternal with God or eternally separated.

Ok, let's assume you are correct and there are things that are eternal even though they have the beginning. How do you know that eternal destruction is something that has the beginning?

 

[Alla27]

You can't.

Yes, I can pay for my sins according to the Bible. The price is death. But how can I be redeemed/forgiven/saved from death and at the time Justice wouldn't be robbed?

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

I never denied this.

You post as if you can get to the Father on your own.

Nope. I say that I will pay the price for my sins the moment I die. Death is the price everyone pays for his/her own sins.
And I did NOT say anything about how to get to Father.
So, I died - price for my sins. It is Justice. There is no redemption for me. But God the Father is Mercy. He wants to forgive me. But the moment God the Father forgives me He robs justice. Can God rob justice and still be just?

 

[-57]

Please, tell me which verse particular indicates that Christ had to be killed or dead in order to take our sins upon Himself? Where does it say(verse please) that God planned that in order for Christ to take our sins upon Himself He had to be killed or dead.

P.S. If God knew that Jesus would be killed by men He could foretell this future fact through Isaiah. But where did Isaiah say that Christ HAD to be killed(dead) in order to take our sins upon Himself? verse, please.

10

 

[-57]

Ok, let's assume you are correct and there are things that are eternal even though they have the beginning. How do you know that eternal destruction is something that has the beginning?

Have you stood before the white throne yet?

 

[-57]

Yes, I can pay for my sins according to the Bible. The price is death. But how can I be redeemed/forgiven/saved from death and at the time Justice wouldn't be robbed?

You can't rob justice. I've explained this to you several times. I won't be explaining it again.

To answer the question "how can I be redeemed/forgiven/saved from death"
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.....and I'm talking about believing in the real Jesus.

I never denied this.

You denied it when you said you could pay for your own sin and come to the Father on your own.

Nope. I say that I will pay the price for my sins the moment I die. Death is the price everyone pays for his/her own sins.
And I did NOT say anything about how to get to Father.
So, I died - price for my sins. It is Justice. There is no redemption for me. But God the Father is Mercy. He wants to forgive me. But the moment God the Father forgives me He robs justice. Can God rob justice and still be just?

I'd watch what I say....You're telling us that Jesus taking on your justice is robbing justice? I see that statement as heretical.

 

[Alla27]

10

Isaiah 53:
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; [/quote]
where does it say here that Christ will take our sins while being killed or dead?

he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

where does it say here that Christ takes our sins upon Himself while being killed or dead?

God knew that Christ will be tortured and killed. God let it happen because He did not take agency from Christ's killers. So, God knew what some people would do to Jesus. But He still sent Him to save all of us. That was sacrifice of Father - He sent His Son knowing that He will SUFFER.
But where did God say that "taking sins upon Christ" is "to be killed/to be dead"?
What if Christ takes our sins by SUFFERING PAIN?
But does Jesus have to be killed to suffer pain? Is "to be killed" the only way to suffer/ to drink bitter cup?

 

[Alla27]

Have you stood before the white throne yet?

No. How does this fact tell me that eternal destruction is something that has a beginning?

 

[Alla27]

You can't rob justice. I've explained this to you several times. I won't be explaining it again.

To answer the question "how can I be redeemed/forgiven/saved from death"
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.....and I'm talking about believing in the real Jesus.

You denied it when you said you could pay for your own sin and come to the Father on your own.


I'd watch what I say....You're telling us that Jesus taking on your justice is robbing justice? I see that statement as heretical.

I want to be clear about my statements:

1)According to the Bible I sin when I break God's laws.
2)According to the Bible penalty for sin is death.
3)I will die. To be dead = to pay price for my sins according to the Bible. So, the moment I die I start to pay for my sins. Death = hell. I am in hell paying for all my sins
4)According to Justice I am irredeemable (not deplorable). If God the Father forgives me He WILL rob Justice BECAUSE Justice DEMANDS that I stay dead(in hell) for ever and ever
5)According to the Bible I can not redeem myself from hell/death, God the Father can not redeem me because Justice demands that I stay in hell(dead)/pay price for my sins for ever. God the Father can not rob Justice and still be just. That is why He can NOT just say: "I forgive you, my child". Hands of God the Father are tied.
6) But God the Son(Jesus Christ) can REDEEM me from hell(according to the Bible). ONLY Him. He can redeem me and at the same time Justice won't be robed and Mercy won't be robed.
ONLY Christ can satisfy both Justice and Mercy.

Question: where did God say that in order for Christ to redeem me(take my sins upon Himself) He had to be killed or while He is dead?