Why did Jesus need to die?

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Because GOD is HOLY

And throughout HIS WORD HE showed HIMSELF as HOLY

No man could just come up into the presence without GOD calling and..Consecrating

Moses was called to come up but the people had to stand back. They couldn't even approach the mountain lest HE break out upon them

Basically, this answer is . . . . God is just that way, so that's why.

Which doesn't explain why, really, it merely reasserts that God is that way.

It's OK, perhaps we don't have to understand why.

 

[miknik5]

Basically, this answer is . . . . God is just that way, so that's why.

Which doesn't explain why, really, it merely reasserts that God is that way.

It's OK, perhaps we don't have to understand why.

You do have to understand why

If GOD hadn't covered over HIS HOLY GLORY and had come to us uncovered. ALL would have perished

When HE comes again, those who are uncovered will perish at the brightness of HIS coming


All needed the right COVERING

A Second Passover is coming...And those whose "houses" are covered will be passed over

and those whose "houses" aren't will not be passed over

"Strange fire" is as strange Fire before GOD

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

You do have to understand why

If GOD hadn't covered over HIS HOLY GLORY and had come to us uncovered. ALL would have perished

When HE comes again, those who are uncovered will perish at the brightness of HIS coming


All needed the right COVERING

A Second Passover is coming...And those whose "houses" are covered will be passed over

and those whose "houses" aren't will not be passed over

"Strange fire" is as strange Fire before GOD

But what is the reality those phrases are used, as parables, to describe?

 

[miknik5]

But what is the reality those phrases are used, as parables, to describe?

It is the reality of God's WORD and law fulfilled

Those who are marked are covered

Those who aren't will be found guilty of HIS BLOOD

Genesis 9:5

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

It is the reality of God's WORD and law fulfilled

Those who are marked are covered

Those who aren't will be found guilty of HIS BLOOD

Genesis 9:5

Why did He affirm that word? Why did He pass those laws?

 

[miknik5]

Remember what was accepted and what was said when they demanded HE be crucified

There was a reason for HIS CRUCIFIXION

Some understand this now

Some still do not

Why did He affirm that word? Why did He pass those laws?

Because HE wanted a set apart people called by HIS NAME who would glorify HIS NAME as HOLY amongst all nations

See Ezekiel 36

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Remember what was accepted and what was said when they demanded HE be crucified

There was a reason for HIS CRUCIFIXION

Some understand this now

Some still do not

Because HE wanted a set apart people called by HIS NAME who would glorify HIS NAME as HOLY amongst all nations

See Ezekiel 36

OK your answers all come down to "because He wanted to".

 

[miknik5]

When a man believes in the GOSPEL it is not only the knee buckling/heart rending revelation of how much all of us had fallen and were in need of a Savior but the very HOLINESS of GOD and that GOD in HIS LOVE and long-suffering patience provided a WAY back into HIS PRESENCE in by and through HIS SON because all along HE desired a relationship with HIS disobedient children who were EVER and always going astray

OK your answers all come down to "because He wanted to".

My answer? I said HE wanted to what?

Do something for our good and for our salvation?
Or do something for our downfall?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Not cherry picking, pointing out the lofty statements which Christians have used of Christ from the earliest years of the religion.

It might be cherry picking if I wanted to avoid the places where Christ is spoken of as subject to God, such as Jesus saying, "The Father is greater than I" or where St. Paul says that God is the head of Christ. But that wasn't really germane to my point, my point was to address the high Christological statements present in the New Testament and how the language of the Church remained consistent in that regard. That Christ is spoken of as subject to the Father doesn't cause any injury to my argument.

-CryptoLutheran

You said that Jesus is God because he is placed high. I said that it does not follow from his placement that he is God. You have proven my case.

 

[miknik5]

You said that Jesus is God because he is placed high. I said that it does not follow from his placement that he is God. You have proven my case.

All are called to honor the SON just as they honor The FATHER who sent HIM

Can't get any higher than that

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

When a man believes in the GOSPEL it is not only the knee buckling/heart rending revelation of how much all of us had fallen and were in need of a Savior but the very HOLINESS of GOD and that GOD in HIS LOVE and long-suffering patience provided a WAY back into HIS PRESENCE in by and through HIS SON because all along HE desired a relationship with HIS disobedient children who were EVER and always going astray

My answer? I said HE wanted to what?

Do something for our good and for our salvation?
Or do something for our downfall?

We're not at all talking about whether God wants to do us good, we're talking about why did God giving us salvation have to involve Jesus dying on the cross. In all your answers the only thing you have ever come up with is (a) colorful language such as the word "covering" and (b) He requires it. To some, God slaying His Son on the cross because He requires it seems . . . . odd. Why not just skip that part?

 

[miknik5]

We're not at all talking about whether God wants to do us good, we're talking about why did God giving us salvation have to involve Jesus dying on the cross. In all your answers the only thing you have ever come up with is (a) colorful language such as the word "covering" and (b) He requires it. To some, God slaying His Son on the cross because He requires it seems . . . . odd. Why not just skip that part?

You can tell HIM that you knew better what was best

Okay?

 

[miknik5]

But by doing so you'd be professing yourself above HIS SON thereby treating HIS SON's sacrifice as an unholy, unnecessary and even secondary thing

 

[Grafted In]

We're not at all talking about whether God wants to do us good, we're talking about why did God giving us salvation have to involve Jesus dying on the cross. In all your answers the only thing you have ever come up with is (a) colorful language such as the word "covering" and (b) He requires it. To some, God slaying His Son on the cross because He requires it seems . . . . odd. Why not just skip that part?

God Himself began the creation of man with one law : Do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The cost of breaking that one law was death, both a physical death and a spiritual death.
Adam and wife broke that law and as a result all of mankind still dies a physical death and a spiritual death.
So, death....the shedding blood had to occur to satisfy that law. But not just any blood. It had to be the blood of a sinless man. Therefore since there was no such sacrifice because all of mankind was corrupted by sin and therefor unable to satisfy the requirement of innocent blood, God, Himself became man, lived a life free of any sin and therefore the only sacrifice able to satisfy the Law.
Jesus Christ is both man and God and He willingly and purposefully took our sins upon Himself to pay the price for the sins of all mankind. All that man had/has to do to be made pure again in His eyes is to believe on Him as the redeemer, the perfect sacrifice Who paid the price that he simply could not pay for himself.
If you look at that purely from the position that God slew His Son, the natural mind would easily see injustice carried out by God against His Son. But if you can grasp the fact that Jesus being crusified was not God slaying His Son, but His Son, in who dwells ALL of the fullness of The Godhead, willingly laid down His life on the cross. He became a man with all of the sadness and joy, all the pain and comfort, all the trials, all the heartaches, all the emotional things that we all have, yet did not break one single law chose to die for all of mankind. He was not murdered in the spiritual sense. He went to that cross because He loves us that much...a sinless man laying down His sinless human existence to pay for our sins. As God in the flesh He could have chosen not to do so. But He went to that cross, He willingly accepted the beatings, the mocking, the horible torture, having His beard physically ripped from His face, endured the lashes of the whip that literally ripped skin and flesh as it tore at His body. He willing endured all of that for us. He felt pain just as we would have. It hurt to be crucified, it hurt to be whipped. It hurt to be betrayed, spit on and mocked by the very ones who He was laying down His life for, but just the same, He loved those who crucified Him and all of mankind who had hurt Him and would continue to hurt Him with their sin.
We all are responsible for His death. We all are responsible for the unimaginable pain and suffering both physical and mental, as well as emotional.
The is how much He loves us.
To look at what He chose to do, imagine being in front of a judge having been convicted of murder.
The judge looks you in the eye and says " This court has found you guilty of murder. Therefore I sentence you to die at the end of this hearing". He picks up the gavel , slams it down hard on the desk, declares "This case is closed. Release the guilty man". Then he stands up, removes his robe, stretches his hands out to be handcuffed and demands that the sentence be carried out emediately... on him.

 

[Grafted In]

Sorry double post

 

[ViaCrucis]

You said that Jesus is God because he is placed high. I said that it does not follow from his placement that he is God. You have proven my case.

My argument is not that "Jesus is placed high, therefore He is God", my argument is that the Christological language used throughout the New Testament identifies Jesus as being divine, as God; and that it is precisely this kind of language that was continued to be utilized in the years that came following. Your argument, it would seem, is to just ignore that and conclude that the language of Christ as subject to the Father is all that matters; the problem is that in that case accusing me of cherry picking is simply false, because my argument isn't lessened or changed based upon these statements (if my argument were that Christ is described as God and never as a servant, then you could accuse me of this); but seeing as you are thoroughly dismissing the rather lofty Christological language used in the New Testament, not even addressing it or engaging it in any way, then the charge of cherry picking belongs only to you in this instance.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Nihilist Virus]

My argument is not that "Jesus is placed high, therefore He is God", my argument is that the Christological language used throughout the New Testament identifies Jesus as being divine, as God; and that it is precisely this kind of language that was continued to be utilized in the years that came following. Your argument, it would seem, is to just ignore that and conclude that the language of Christ as subject to the Father is all that matters; the problem is that in that case accusing me of cherry picking is simply false, because my argument isn't lessened or changed based upon these statements (if my argument were that Christ is described as God and never as a servant, then you could accuse me of this); but seeing as you are thoroughly dismissing the rather lofty Christological language used in the New Testament, not even addressing it or engaging it in any way, then the charge of cherry picking belongs only to you in this instance.

-CryptoLutheran

Angels are divine beings and they are subject to God. That's enough to dismantle your entire case.

The earliest of Christians thought of Jesus as a heavenly high priest - not God, but above all other created beings.

 

[miknik5]

Angels are divine beings and they are subject to God. That's enough to dismantle your entire case.

The earliest of Christians thought of Jesus as a heavenly high priest - not God, but above all other created beings.

Well. Do angels say exactly what GOD has given them to say?

Is what they say TRUTH?

And of course let it be clear that we are making a distinction between the angels in the presence of GOD from the fallen angels

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

God Himself began the creation of man with one law : Do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The cost of breaking that one law was death, both a physical death and a spiritual death.
Adam and wife broke that law and as a result all of mankind still dies a physical death and a spiritual death.
So, death....the shedding blood had to occur to satisfy that law. But not just any blood. It had to be the blood of a sinless man. Therefore since there was no such sacrifice because all of mankind was corrupted by sin and therefor unable to satisfy the requirement of innocent blood, God, Himself became man, lived a life free of any sin and therefore the only sacrifice able to satisfy the Law.
Jesus Christ is both man and God and He willingly and purposefully took our sins upon Himself to pay the price for the sins of all mankind. All that man had/has to do to be made pure again in His eyes is to believe on Him as the redeemer, the perfect sacrifice Who paid the price that he simply could not pay for himself.
If you look at that purely from the position that God slew His Son, the natural mind would easily see injustice carried out by God against His Son. But if you can grasp the fact that Jesus being crusified was not God slaying His Son, but His Son, in who dwells ALL of the fullness of The Godhead, willingly laid down His life on the cross. He became a man with all of the sadness and joy, all the pain and comfort, all the trials, all the heartaches, all the emotional things that we all have, yet did not break one single law chose to die for all of mankind. He was not murdered in the spiritual sense. He went to that cross because He loves us that much...a sinless man laying down His sinless human existence to pay for our sins. As God in the flesh He could have chosen not to do so. But He went to that cross, He willingly accepted the beatings, the mocking, the horible torture, having His beard physically ripped from His face, endured the lashes of the whip that literally ripped skin and flesh as it tore at His body. He willing endured all of that for us. He felt pain just as we would have. It hurt to be crucified, it hurt to be whipped. It hurt to be betrayed, spit on and mocked by the very ones who He was laying down His life for, but just the same, He loved those who crucified Him and all of mankind who had hurt Him and would continue to hurt Him with their sin.
We all are responsible for His death. We all are responsible for the unimaginable pain and suffering both physical and mental, as well as emotional.
The is how much He loves us.
To look at what He chose to do, imagine being in front of a judge having been convicted of murder.
The judge looks you in the eye and says " This court has found you guilty of murder. Therefore I sentence you to die at the end of this hearing". He picks up the gavel , slams it down hard on the desk, declares "This case is closed. Release the guilty man". Then he stands up, removes his robe, stretches his hands out to be handcuffed and demands that the sentence be carried out emediately... on him.

Beautiful language and it captures the essense of the substitution explanation for the need for Christ's death on the cross. This language has a long, cherished history in our religion.

There is also the identification language that is amply represented in the New Testament. Christ becomes one with us. He enters our hearts. He takes on our sin, so that God even sees Christ as representing sin on the cross; and afterwords, when He is resurrected, we have faith we also will be resurrected with Him. Some find identification language more reasonable than substitution language.

Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
NASU