Why did Jesus need to die?

[Alla27]

Didn't you see the red word?

I don't see words "for ever and ever". I see words "eternal destruction". So, please answer this simple question: what is eternal destruction?
P.S. one more question: what does "eternal" mean"? Thank you.

 

[Alla27]

Being an atheist I understand you need to look at it that way...But, there are other ways to look at it.

Do I understand you correctly that you were an atheist? I was an atheist.

 

[Alla27]

ONE MORE QUESTION:

What if Jesus was killed by accident? Let's say big rock fell on Him. He would bleed. So, it would be no cross, no Calvary. Would He still pay for our sins by dying this way?
if "no" why not? if "yes" how?

 

[-57]

If I die I will payoff the debt completely because the only payment for any sin is death. It is Justice of God. But then Mercy will be completely robbed.
So, Heavenly Father knows if I pay for my debt completely by dying forever He will do Justice but He will rob Mercy. Can God rob Mercy?
So, how does the atonement work? (I think we are getting closer to the answer).


P.S. I am a sinner. I will pay for my debt when I die. Death is the penalty. It is Justice of God.
Someone may ask: why don't Father just forgives Alla? The answer is this: if Father does forgive me then He will ROB Justice. Can God rob Justice?
how does the atonement work?

It has been explained to you several times justice is not robbed....BECAUSE...Jesus paid the debt. If Jesus satisfied the justice, how is it robbed when God grants mercy to a believer?
Secondly God owes no one mercy. Mercy can't be robbed.
I also think it would be nice if you began to back up your belief presented above with scripture rather than what you feel.

 

[-57]

Do I understand you correctly that you were an atheist? I was an atheist.

Perhaps I should have said "I understand you need to look at it that way considering you're an atheist"

 

[-57]

ONE MORE QUESTION:

What if Jesus was killed by accident? Let's say big rock fell on Him. He would bleed. So, it would be no cross, no Calvary. Would He still pay for our sins by dying this way?
if "no" why not? if "yes" how?

You present an impossible hypothetical scenario. The bible fortells a death on the cross. An inoccent lamb led to slaughter.

 

[-57]

I don't see words "for ever and ever". I see words "eternal destruction". So, please answer this simple question: what is eternal destruction?
P.S. one more question: what does "eternal" mean"? Thank you.

Lasting or existing forever.

 

[-57]

how does the atonement work?

Atonement is a reparation (the making of amends for sin) for a wrong. According to Christian theology the reconciliation (restoration of a relationship) of God and humankind through Jesus Christ.

 

[Alla27]

You present an impossible hypothetical scenario. The bible fortells a death on the cross. An inoccent lamb led to slaughter.

If Jesus had to die in order to pay for my sins then He could die naturally. He would still save me according to you.
We both believe that God knows what happens in the future. God knew that it will be people who will reject the truth and will have desire to kill Jesus. So, God told people what would happen in the future. But where does the Bible claim that this was God's plan all along? Where does God claim that He wanted(His will) that someone would become so evil that he or she or they would wanted to kill an innocent person?

Then it will make a killer/killers of Christ a saint(s) because he or she/they would do WILL of God. To do will of God is righteousness and not a sin.

 

[Alla27]

Lasting or existing forever.

Would it mean that it had no beginning?

 

[Alla27]

It has been explained to you several times justice is not robbed....BECAUSE...Jesus paid the debt. If Jesus satisfied the justice, how is it robbed when God grants mercy to a believer?

But why does Jesus have to pay for my debt if I can do it BY DYING MYSELF. I sinned I will die 100% guarantee. Justice WILL BE served. Why do I need someone else to pay for my sins then?

I also think it would be nice if you began to back up your belief presented above with scripture rather than what you feel.

I can't not only back my believes I can not even share my believes in this thread. That is why you don't know my believes. But I can ask you questions here. You answer them and I appreciate this.

 

[-57]

If Jesus had to die in order to pay for my sins then He could die naturally. He would still save me according to you.
We both believe that God knows what happens in the future. God knew that it will be people who will reject the truth and will have desire to kill Jesus. So, God told people what would happen in the future. But where does the Bible claim that this was God's plan all along? Where does God claim that He wanted(His will) that someone would become so evil that he or she or they would wanted to kill an innocent person?

Then it will make a killer/killers of Christ a saint(s) because he or she/they would do WILL of God. To do will of God is righteousness and not a sin.

Isaiah 53.

Are you saying there could have been a better way?

 

[-57]

Would it mean that it had no beginning?

Not always.

 

[-57]

But why does Jesus have to pay for my debt if I can do it BY DYING MYSELF. I sinned I will die 100% guarantee. Justice WILL BE served. Why do I need someone else to pay for my sins then?

Why should God accept your payment?

 

[Steve Petersen]

because the forgiveness of sin requires the shedding of blood. That is why before Christ died animals had to be sacified in order for Israel to stay clean in God's sight.

Why does forgiveness require the shedding of blood? Because God made it a rule. If your are not covered by Jesus' blood, you fry forever.

Next question: Who asks to be born? The odds are pretty good that most people who were born are gonna fry forever.

 

[Alla27]

Why should God accept your payment?

Why shouldn't He?

Good question: why should God accept my payment for my sins? Hmm. May be because He is the author of this kind of payment? Why shouldn't God accept something He created Himself? like penalty for ANY sin is death.

 

[Alla27]

Not always.

are you saying that some eternal things have a beginning? how does it make them eternal then?

 

[Alla27]

Isaiah 53.

where does it say here that it is God's plan that someone had to be killed to pay for sins of others?
Let's say you tell me that you will go to dangerous place. I know the place, I know people of this place. I tell myself: "Oh, he will be robbed and killed"
Do I just foretell the future fact or this is my plan that you have to be robbed and killed?
Where did God claim that it was His PLAN that His Son had to be killed by someone in order to take sins of others upon Himself? Or is this just your own understanding/ideas?

Are you saying there could have been a better way?

I am not saying anything. I am not allowed to share LDS Doctrine here.
So, where does God of Israel claim that it was His plan that in order for Christ to take upon Himself my sins or your sins He had to be killed or dead?

 

[Steve Petersen]

If I die I will payoff the debt completely because the only payment for any sin is death. It is Justice of God. But then Mercy will be completely robbed.
So, Heavenly Father knows if I pay for my debt completely by dying forever He will do Justice but He will rob Mercy. Can God rob Mercy?
So, how does the atonement work? (I think we are getting closer to the answer).


P.S. I am a sinner. I will pay for my debt when I die. Death is the penalty. It is Justice of God.
Someone may ask: why don't Father just forgives Alla? The answer is this: if Father does forgive me then He will ROB Justice. Can God rob Justice?
how does the atonement work?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Then we have the entire chapter of Ezekiel 18.

 

[Alla27]

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And I will not argue with Paul. So, I will die. I will pay price for my sins. It calls Justice. But then if God decides to give me gift of eternal life/shows Mercy He will rob Justice.

I noticed that Paul says something interesting. He says that gift of eternal life NOT just by forgiving me but THROUGH Jesus Christ. It is NOT enough for God to say: "I forgive Alla".
So, I have to assume that through Jesus Christ SOMEHOW both Justice and Mercy will be satisfied. Somehow through Christ Justice will not rob Mercy and Mercy will not rob Justice.
How? this is the question!