1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Private Member only forums for more serious discussions that you may wish to not have guests or search engines access to.
    • Your very own blog. Write about anything you like on your own individual blog.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Why did God still allow so many people to live in literall Hell conditions?

Discussion in 'Struggles by Non-Christians' started by VCR-2000, Feb 19, 2022.

  1. VCR-2000

    VCR-2000 Well-Known Member

    821
    +299
    United States
    Seeker
    Single
    US-Others
    Never mind my own personal struggles, I know that in history there were a lot of people that lived their whole lives in pure Hell conditions. Yet, God continued to let it stand, no matter how bad it was, and not only that he desires from us that we don't stoop to the same thing and wants us to turn the other cheek and love our enemies.

    If I was a prisoner under the Soviet Union gulag, conditions would be so awful that I can't imagine that I'd have much faith. A lot of faith is just fluff "You may have it awful now, but you get to have the reward of Jesus one day" and dismisses the scars or wounds that people have. People live entire lives being denied desires of their heart or mind like physical or romantic intimacy, greatness and success, even more dire things like lack of food and basic humane resources, and yet when they die here they aren't given a continuation of what could've been or what they would prefer, but just for the sake of merely being with Jesus, and that also seems to be the mindset of most Christians I seen.

    It's like two teams are playing a never-ending game and when it finally comes time to end, the referee suddenly changes all the rules, or you just get a fluff paper saying these platitudes that aren't actually material manifest, like the characters in the movie "The Wizard of Oz" when they finally are able to meet the wizard. It does make entire existence look kind of pointless in that way.

    Back to the topic of horrible evil, I also have to live with the thought that if God allowed Stalin and other ruthless dictators to kill and torture hundred of millions of people, then that could come to even America and broadly the Western world one day and God would still allow it to stand as usual, at least until the end where he then directly intervenes, but the scars and wounds will always be with us and the damage was already done. I just didn't focus life on the horrible evil part as much because I happened to be born and raised in a relatively peaceful time and country. But even today, this is the life of millions if not billions of people.

    People say that we have free will, and I know that, but it feels dismissive to people's struggling when others just say about it is because God gave man free will.
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    +7,846
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    I think Satan was given dominion under covenant and the nasty game he decided to play has a little more time to run because God honours His agreements.
     
  3. Petros2015

    Petros2015 Well-Known Member

    +3,626
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    I'm not sure that we can say what they will be given
    But, if it is good, then I think those who had it bad here
    Will appreciate it more

    Who appreciates a banquet more
    The man who never went hungry a day in his life?
    Or the man who never had a full belly a day in his life?
    But to each where this life left a hole
    That hole will be filled
    I think of this I can be sure
     
  4. Friedrich Rubinstein

    Friedrich Rubinstein Well-Known Member

    998
    +1,064
    Germany
    Christian
    Private
    God wants a relationship with everyone of us. What is important in a relationship? Love. But you can’t have real love without the possibility of hate. Real love requires the freedom of the will to love or to not love. If love is a supreme ethic and freedom is indispensable to love, and God’s supreme goal for you and for me is that we love him with all our heart and love our neighbour as ourselves, for him to violate our free will would be to violate that which is a necessary component so that love can be expressed.
    If you’re asking for God to always "stop the trigger", why not make God stop everything else? Next time you hold a cup of boiling water he makes it frozen water instead. Next time you’re about to cross the road and you’re gonna be hit he pulls your leg back. What you are asking for is a different entity than humanity. As wonderful as it may seem that in stopping that you think he is protecting you from that which is destructive – the greatest denial that you’re asking for is the freedom of your will to be able to choose and to love God with all your heart and all your soul.
    When you’ve got love as a supreme ethic and the freedom of the will to choose that love, all the other contingencies come in and can be explained; why it is possible to either choose or to reject. If you want compliance and some kind of a mechanical response your question itself will self-destruct: You are asking this question because you are free to ask it, and you are free to ask it because you are free to love. And when you love God in spite of all the contraries that you see around us you are trusting him for having the supreme wisdom and the knowledge to ultimately bring a pattern out of it all.
    (Taken from the words of a wise man)
     
  5. DragonFox91

    DragonFox91 Well-Known Member

    +1,746
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    God makes all bad good again.
     
  6. Astrifer

    Astrifer New Member

    13
    +30
    United States
    Catholic
    Private
    The root of your issue stems from the question of why God allows evil, period. Instead of asking why God allows awful dictatorships and famine, you could just why God allowed sin to come into the world. The answer that is commonly given is that God allows evil in order to bring about a greater good (ie Christ's Redemption of humanity). God loves us so much that He gave us free will, so that we might choose to love Him instead of simply being bound to Him from the start. Even the angels were given a choice to love Him, and some chose not to, thus becoming demons.

    I also want to touch on something you mentioned about people being denied worldly things "just for the sake of merely being with Jesus." Our time here on Earth is but a brief sojourn in our perpetual existence. Ultimately, we are not here to enjoy ourselves, but to help prepare ourselves and others for the next life. Remember, Christ Himself led a life in service of others and was unjustly tortured and executed. Also, an eternity with Christ is not some "mere" thing. It is the culmination of human existence, a perfect joy, that of an eternal union between Creator and created. The tremendousness of such an existence can never be fully comprehended until one experiences it. So yes, it is something worth striving for, even if it means being denied a pleasant life on Earth.
     
  7. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

    +8,765
    Non-Denom
    Single
    US-Republican
    And yet, there have been Christians who lived in those conditions and kept up strong faith.
     
  8. Alistair_Wonderland

    Alistair_Wonderland Active Member

    317
    +267
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I notice your profile quote is "The world is quiet here". Come now, surely someone with that quote can be more eloquent upon the question as to why noble people suffer so often while wicked people get away with murder. ;)

    As for the original question, the answer is not a simple one. In fact, it is one I am dealing with right now, as I teeter upon an edge from which I may never be healed if I fall. I shall praise God as best I can until I die... what good does it do to resist?... but hopelessness is something I battle every minute of every day.

    The best answer I can give is God's answer in Job. The message is not "how dare you question God?!", as some act like it is, but rather, God calls attention to each of the aspects of nature which are so painstakingly planned out, showing how he accounts for every detail. His message is "You cannot understand now... but trust me. Look at all that I have made, and how I have planned every detail. I have done the same for you. You may not know it now, but one day you will see the truth, and the truth will set you free."
    Not much of an answer, but take that up with Him; I'm just the messenger.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2022
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  9. Saucy

    Saucy Well-Known Member Supporter

    +17,240
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    In life, there will be suffering. That's just a part of the human condition. Even Jesus suffered brutally and died. All of His disciples were murdered. Paul endured stonings and was in prison and beaten. Does this mean God doesn't exist or He doesn't love us?

    Most of human history is full of suffering and hellish conditions. I know it's a Christian cliche, but our home isn't here on earth. Earth is full of sin and sinners. If someone robs from you, kills you, or kills millions, they sinned. Just like if you were to steal from someone, you would be sinning.

    God told us how we are to live our lives. He gave us laws to live by. My previous pastor once said that if we ever wanted to live in a true utopia, we would follow God's laws. They exist for a reason. God is not a cosmic killjoy. We would live like the early church that sold all their possessions and loved each other, gave to those who had need, and so on. There would be no murder, no theft, no single parents, no homelessness, no war, no divorce, no abuse, no rape, no abortion, no adultery, and so on.

    We would all live in perfect unity. But we chose a different route. We are only on this earth for a short time and then there's eternity. Francis Chan had a great illustration during one of his messages. He held up a rope and a few inches of the tip was colored red. He said, "imagine this rope never ends. It starts here, but keeps going and going." The tiny bit colored red is our life here on earth. It's only a short part of our journey. The rest of the rope is an eternity that never ends.

    In the end, no one gets away with anything. A good person might suffer here in an evil world, but they will suffer eternal consequences. Death is the great equalizer.
     
  10. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    +2,004
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    The common notion that "God is in control of everything" is at the root of these sort of questions.
    God is completely sovereign, but He is not controlling everything that is happening in the world. He could, but He just does not control everything. Look out your window. Watch the news. If one thing is self-evident, it is that the world is not under the complete control of a benevolent God.
    Atheists and Agnostics very often use this argument against theists. They will hold up the condition of the world as proof that there is no God. Those that believe that God is in control of everything stumble and mumble about... but they are at a loss as to how to answer. The answer is easy and simple. God is not now, nor has He ever been in complete control.
    The fact is this. We are living in a world that is free and is a world of the possible. Only a world of the possible gives God what He is looking for. He had to create a free-running world. Only then could He receive the one thing He was desiring. That is a family that freely and fully loved Him, worshiped Him, and believes in Him. Of course, this created risk. There is a risk that things will go south. And of course, they did.
    What is our role? How should we approach these facts? We have one and only one choice. We must believe. We must have faith. Those who come to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. This includes believing in His judgment.
    To me, this translates into a job. It is my job as a believer to believe. No doubting. No questioning. Seeking... but no questioning. And certainly, no contradicting. All else is His job. We do our job and let Him do His. Trust Him. He will make everything right.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  11. SANTOSO

    SANTOSO Well-Known Member

    +1,165
    Indonesia
    Christian
    Married
    Beloved one, have you not heard what apostle James :

    “For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.”
    ‭‭James‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Didn’t those who make others lived in hellish conditions —self seeking ? They were. Were they not envious of themselves? They were.
    Were there evil there? There were.

    If you said that God continued to let it stands— that people lives in a pure hell conditions, they should still be living in hellish conditions. But now they are not ! If they are not, that means that God don’t let them live in hellish conditions now. So God don’t let it stand, as you perceived.

    Were there confusion ? There were.

    Should we be confused ? We should not. How we should not be confused.

    This is what apostle Paul said to us:
    “For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.”
    ‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1:29-30‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    If we should suffer hellish conditions, we should not only believe in Christ but also to suffer for His sake, having the same conflict which we saw in apostle Paul and now we hear is apostle Paul, that is, faith and love in Christ Jesus.

    So we should not be confused because it has been granted to us to suffer on behalf of Christ, that we should not only believe in Him but also to suffer for His name’ sake.

    If you are concerned that you are like many only having a faith that is a fluff, it is because you have not obtained precious faith.

    This we heard:
    “Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
    ‭‭II Peter‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Beloved one, obtain this precious faith with apostles and bond servants of Christ by the righteousness of God and Savior Jesus Christ.
    Then, you will have the strength of God to suffer for His name’s sake.

    You said,”You may have it awful now, but you get to have the reward of Jesus one day" and dismisses the scars or wounds that people have.”

    Do Jesus dismiss the scars or wounds that people have ? No.

    For we heard:
    “and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Did we only suffer for His name’s sake ? No but also indeed we suffer WITH HIM.

    So there were scars or wounds that we had ,inasmuch Jesus also had, for Jesus suffered with us.

    Are we confused that we have to suffer like this ? This we heard:

    “always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.

    For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.”
    ‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭4:10-11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    “For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds through Christ.”
    ‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Beloved one,if we are suffering for His name’sake, we suffer with Him, we shall also abound with consolation through Christ.

    Beloved one, all desires of the hearts and minds whether they be physical or romantic intimacy, greatness and success, even more dire things like lack of food and basic humane resources, that you said. Let us understand this, that we heard:

    For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: and that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.”
    ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    It is because of the love of Christ that constrained us, that we should not live unto ourselves but unto Him, which died for us and rose again.

    As we also heard:“And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
    ‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭3:4-6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Beloved one, you cannot compare Jesus with wizard. Jesus is not a fairy tale character. And you should not compare the gospel with the wizard of oz. Are you concerned about ending? This we heard in the gospel:

    “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he ( Christ) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”
    ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:21-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬
    So before the end come, the question is: Do you belong to Christ? This question that matters answering.

    Are you concerned about ruthless dictators ? For it is written:
    “And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.”
    ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭13:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    Weren’t ruthless dictators terrible ? The Lord said that He will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

    Beloved one, are you still going to judge God, God stands with the terrible ? Are you still going to judge Jesus, that He dismisses the scars and wounds of His beloved ? Are you envious that you were born in peaceful time and country ? Didn’t we hear those who were envious also self seeking that they are confused and didn’t perceive evil there in their hearts? Beloved one, repent, for you didn’t know what you were saying.

    To God the Father be thanksgiving through Christ. Amen
     
  12. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Well-Known Member

    604
    +464
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Single
    I know this is easy for me to write, as I never been persecuted, but it's truth...
    Why does God owe us anything good? Why? What did we ever give Him? He created us to love Him and serve Him, God told us what will happen when we disobey Him, we rebelled and our relationship with God died. God could have destroyed humanity the moment we sinned, and it would be just. Why? Because God is love and good, thus He must hate all evil and He wants to destroy it. The punishment for sin is death, but God, because He is so loving, didn't yet judge us according to our sins, but in His loving nature wanting to show His mercy and forgiveness to save many.

    But, there is no forgiveness without shedding blood, our sins still must be punished by death, otherwise God is not just. Jesus Christ took this punishment for our sins, and whoever believes in His perfect work on the cross, will be saved. That's it (read the story about Moses and the bronze serpent to get the better idea).

    Now why did God allow Satan to deceive us and humanity to fall? Everything God does is for God's glory. By us falling, God the Son glorified the Father on the cross. In this God showed His incredible love and mercy. This of course does in no way mitigates our sin.

    Why does God allow evil to happen in our lives? First of all, we deserve nothing, and no matter how bad things are, they are still not what we deserve, hell. Not even Holocaust is as bad as hell.
    We must understand that God has all the wisdom and knowledge, we in comparison have grain of sand of wisdom and knowledge in a universe full of sand. God sees it all, we don't. This is where faith comes from, knowing that God has everything in control, and everything is going according to God's plan, in whatever He decide will give Him the most glory. God can do everything He wants, and He will do so. God is an also active God, meaning He will interfere in our life in such way that He achieves whatever He wants to achieve. Can He do that? Absolutely. Remember, we were created for Him, not God for us. We rebelled, we deserved hell yesterday, but God chose to show mercy.

    I don't know if you read the Old Testament, especially Judges...but if you haven't, every time God's people (Israel in that time) fallen away from God and did evil, God would send a foreign country to beat them up and suppress them, making them suffer. God's people would then call God's name, repent of their evil, and they would fully turn their heart to God, serving, obeying and loving God. God allows the difficulties today for the same reason. For example, covid, God wanted to show the humanity that all the earthly things and lives they are holding onto have no value whatsoever, and that God is their only hope, not only against covid, but sin. Because we in ourselves have no hope. Look what a microscopic virus did to humanity. When you are dying, what good is your wealth, career, family, the way you lived etc. nothing (I can tell you this from an experience as I was close to death from a brain tumour, nothing mattered and when I realized this and cried in hopelessness, God saved me). Only thing that matters is your relationship with God and whether you are washed in Jesus' blood or not.

    I am not saying, the reason for every hard thing in our lives is for repentance. That could be the main reason, or one of the reason, many times only God will know why He allows such and such a thing and it's not up to us to figure it out, but just to trust Him and depend on Him. God is in control and that is all we need to know. And that God has not yet dealt with us according to our sins, but there will be a time, and it is coming, so repent whilst you can and you are still alive, because one day you will die, and then it's too late.
     
  13. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,271
    Uruguay
    Christian
    Single
    Just my little opinion here, God needs faith from us, God can move mountains if we have faith, God can have all compasion for us but if we don't believe he is getting his hands tied, someone can correct me if i'm wrong but i think is this way how it works.
     
  14. angelsaroundme

    angelsaroundme Well-Known Member

    +1,036
    United States
    Christian
    Celibate
    We are living in a time of rising loneliness, anxiety, depression, and mental illness. There is a lot of suffering, although much of its invisible until we share it.

    I try to see the world as a slow road to progress. People didn't always have indoor toilets, microwaves, etc. For a long time, most couldn't read. We now live on average twice as long as people did in the 1700s. I'm not saying the things we have make up a 100% for those we lack. It doesn't. It does however suggest that things can change. The future may be one where loneliness and mental illness are rarer than ever before. Our present sufferings may be the seeds of a better world.

    I know you'd still rather not suffer, at least not so much, and I would rather not too. But I do take some solace in the fact that suffering can have purpose.
     
  15. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    +4,354
    Non-Denom
    Single
    I hold the opinion that mankind cannot run the world. Cannot form a government that is free of corruption. We have trouble running our family, at times, let alone running the country.

    God must let the nations run freely and destroy lives and the future. How else can God prove to anyone that mankind can't run the show. God is giving you free reign to do and act as you see fit. Yet our problems are increasing. Greed and corruption are shredding every country around the world. The wealthy, the powerful, the ambitious, always climb to the top and always have.

    We cannot correct ourselves because we are addicted to our own passions and desires. We always favor our own opinion, our own view, and ignore everyone else.

    Join a political party and address the issues. What could possibly go wrong?
     
  16. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,665
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    At times, I think about how others suffer a lot more than I do. And I understand that if I got into a very hard thing . . . I would need to answer to God, not demand that He answer to me!

    And simply do what He has me doing. And now while things are nicer for me, I can pray for ones in very hard suffering and trouble, and prayer can help.

    I have been through a little bit. Once I was walking interstate with the clothes on my back, and it was getting colder, at night. I had just a jersey, and it seemed cold enough to kill me by morning. It was too cold to stop and rest, plus I would not have energy enough to keep moving all night to keep warm. But I knew God can give us wisdom what to do in any situation, but I must not have any complaining in me, and I thought of how the Psalm writer never saw God's children begging; so I understood I should simply trust God.

    Adam and Eve started off with no other humans to help them, with no clothing; so I knew God could do what He pleased with me :)

    I heaped leaves and got some sleep under the leaves and woke up alive and did not get sick. And there were drops of frozen water on leaves on the pile, at least one morning

    But I would say that was nothing compared to what a lot of people go through. So, I offer them in prayer for however God pleases to bless others . . . and for whatever He has me do for people. And pray for Him to have me ready in case I get into any very hard thing, including having me ready to do what is loving anyone else while I am in something . . . to be all-loving.
     
  17. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

    +8,238
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Others
    Struggle is healthy for the soul. Fish lay thousands of fertilized eggs and only a few fish make it to adulthood. Were the people you know avoiding being eaten from the day they were born?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2022
  18. Waymarker

    Waymarker Newbie

    145
    +58
    Christian
    Single
    Most problems in the world are caused by the people themselves for not using the simple gift of commonsense that we're all born with..:)
     
  19. VCR-2000

    VCR-2000 Well-Known Member

    821
    +299
    United States
    Seeker
    Single
    US-Others
    That not everything in this world is controlled by God makes more sense than saying he just controls everything to happen. Otherwise, God would be responsible for evil and sin, too.
     
  20. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Well-Known Member

    604
    +464
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Single
    Are you sure about that? Just because God allows evil, it does not mean He is responsible for it. God is indeed in control of evil and demons.

    1 Samuel 16:14 “But the spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.”

    God, in His sovereignty, allowed an evil spirit to torment Saul ( for His purpose of establishing the throne of David. God sent the evil spirit, as punishment for Saul’s rebellion. The Lord does not do evil, but evil spirits are subject to His control and can operate only within the boundaries He sets.

    1 Kings 22:22 “And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.”

    God does allow evil to us to happen, sometimes in order to punish us, sometimes in order to discipline so we repent and turn back to God. Sometimes it is so He reveals His glory like when He hardened pharaoh in Exodus. Why? Because He chose to reveal 10 miracles, so His people would believe, and He chose this as a punishment of Egypt.

    God can do whatever He wants and whatever He allows it is to His glory. God was absolutely in control when satan rebelled and deceived us and we fell. We did God allow it all, knowing it would happen? So He can reveal His mercy and forgiveness and that the Son glorifies the Father on the cross. Does that make us any less responsible and guilty? Absolutely not. Was God in control? Absolutely yes. God is an active God, He dwells upon His word, and is active, so that His perfect will is fulfilled.
     
Loading...