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Why did God still allow so many people to live in literall Hell conditions?

Discussion in 'Struggles by Non-Christians' started by VCR-2000, Feb 19, 2022.

  1. VCR-2000

    VCR-2000 Well-Known Member

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    My psychological stress the past year or so is at the peak worst it ever was so far. I am just here asking god "Why?" but he just wants to say "It's above all of you". I feel like it is a game. God doesn't want us to pursue or have the desires we want, we are just instruments for fulfilling his own agenda plan. How can I see him as anything other than being like a sort of dictator in this regard? I don't want to be condemned to Hell, but at the same time I can't help my being frustrated.
     
  2. Margot Lugo

    Margot Lugo Member

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    VCR-2000, Although I do not feel qualified to answer your post, I do want you to know that who you are matters to me and your thoughts have touched my heart. If you matter to me, a complete stranger and you have touched even MY heart, can you imagine how much more you touch God's heart when you are feeling upset? And if that's true, and I believe it is, can you imagine your joy IS His joy? I prayed for God to help me discover and fulfill my deepest desire and He brought me back to art. I had to do the work, and He was my muse. Jeremiah 1:5 "I knew you before I placed you in your mother's womb. And before you were born, I consecrated you." God said we can come to His banquet table and ask for anything we want. I will be praying for your peace of mind and the calm that defies all human explanation. You matter. Your voice is heard. Your post broke my heart.
     
  3. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    It is because a clean Heaven is like a clean aquarium to be built. Earth is the filtration system where all the dirt will stay. Earth is for all evil to show up such that evil can be legitimately eradicated once and for all by the legal/lawful process known as the Final Judgment.

    Earth is in its last stage known as the End Time. That's why it is in such a status that evil dominates. Christians are told all the time that earth is not our home. We are more like a traveler passing by. We belong to no nation spiritually but the Kingdom of God. During End Time we need to endure as Jesus put it, those who endure shall be saved in the end.
     
  4. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    The concept of free will is meaningless when you do not have the authority or power to bring to pass your will. You have free will to turn the moon into butter, but you do not have the power to actually do it. How many things within your purview do you actually have the authority and power to change? Unfortunately, relatively little. You can control yourself, and not much more than that.
     
  5. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Have you read what happened to Joseph?

    Genesis chapters 37-50.

    People in their free wills did what they did to Joseph, putting him through horrible things. But Joseph did not allow their evil to have power to decide how he saw things and what he did.

    It is wise to not let evil decide how you see things. Satan has his conspiracy to use evil to keep our attention away from God and to keep us weak so we keep suffering deeply because of not submitting to God in His peace > instead we do well to stay attentive and submissive to God in His peace, how He has us seeing things and having hope in prayer for any and all people >

    "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

    Love "hopes all things" > in 1 Corinthians 13:7.

    Therefore, love has us pray with hope for any and all people > Paul says to do this "first of all" > 1 Timothy 2:1-4.

    With God Joseph created a totally better situation. And because God is all-loving and generously forgiving, He had Joseph helping to save the lives of many people, plus reconciling with his brothers who sold Joseph into slavery.

    God used that situation to bring out God's all-loving purpose. He did not only help Joseph with his own situation, but God had Joseph use his situation to love many other people, including loving and helping his brothers who had so betrayed him.

    Likewise . . . yes, people now are deeply ruined so they are doing their evil . . . while they suffer in themselves the horrible things which will be in hell. > they are paying dearly, for continuing in their evil!! Because of the weakness of their character, they give in to frustration, arguing, complaining, blaming, unforgiveness and other anti-love things.

    But God is using even their evil to bring His good . . . like how He has been still using the crucifixion of His own Son Jesus.

    The free will of evil people can not stop God from doing all that He is committed to doing. And you with God always can do His good in sharing with Him.
     
  6. VCR-2000

    VCR-2000 Well-Known Member

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    I found this quote that echoes some of the sentiments I feel about Heaven, or the impression I get of it.
     
  7. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    What makes you happy here on earth?
    When you are filled with Godly type Love (unselfish, unconditional, sacrificial, serving type Love) you just want to help others. There will be those who enter heaven never having the opportunity to obtain Godly type Love, so it is my hope and desire to protect and preserve (SERVE) them for all eternity. If the apostle Paul has a mansion in heave and I have a cardboard box, will Paul not invite me to live with him?
     
  8. VCR-2000

    VCR-2000 Well-Known Member

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    Why should I even be forced to exist at all? Sometimes I understand why atheists would find non-existent unconsciousness restful. I definitely don't want to go Hell but I am not good enough to want or go to Heaven. Why isn't there any other options?
     
  9. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Nobody is good enough to go to heaven. That is why we need a savior. Jesus died for your sins. Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. His name is Jesus.
     
  10. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    It is like: with God or without God.
    Nothing would last long without God preserving it.
    Become a new person.
     
  11. Victor E.

    Victor E. Disciple of Christ Supporter

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    Short answer, we live in a world that is currently in a fallen state of being.

    Since the fall, sin and death entered the world and now we all see the consequences therein for the wages of sin is death.

    Even the wildlife is cursed and fallen.. it has the fear and dread of mankind since the time of Noah.

    One thing that didn't change from the fall of mankind in the Garden is that God gave mankind dominion over the earth.

    Even today, mankind clearly has dominion because man was made in the similitude of God (man is vastly more intelligent than all other creation).

    So the pain, the hunger, and the destitution in the world today is a result of the greed of man.

    Do we not have billionaires and very wealthy people who could easily do something about the horrific things we see today?

    They have far more money than they will ever spend in their lifetime.. yet they want more.

    The love of money.. it is the root of all kinds of evil.

    One day, Christians will be with the Lord in paradise.. where there is no more tears or sorrow.

    Living in this paradise forever.

    The time we have on earth is just a vapor in the wind.. here today and gone tomorrow.

    This.. this is the hope that Christians cling to, and their relationship with God is sufficient to hold them in their faith..
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2022
  12. VCR-2000

    VCR-2000 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the world has always been fallen, but within it's 6000-so year history, certain periods had relatively much less sin and evil than others.
     
  13. Victor E.

    Victor E. Disciple of Christ Supporter

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    Any time periods you specifically have in mind?

    From my understanding, the farther this world gets away from the Garden of Eden.. the farther it gets from God.

    Surely we have grown more civilized, advanced in science/medicine, and in technology.. but with this advancement through the ages come great evils.

    I can certainly think of earlier time periods where there were less overarching issues.

    As man advances.. so does their hubris and self-sufficiency (there was one time man tried to build a building to reach the heavens - the tower of Babel - Genesis 11:4-6).

    At some point.. something's got to give right?

    I believe archeology has found evidence of very advanced civilization(s) that were suddenly wiped out.

    There is nothing truly new under the sun.. it has happened before and it will happen again.

    Interesting to note, before the world was wiped out by a flood (Noah's time) I'm sure the population of humans was enormous and very advanced (if the book of Enoch tells us anything).

    Just a few of my thoughts.
     
  14. VCR-2000

    VCR-2000 Well-Known Member

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    I think the last breath of any good in this world at all was from the 1950s to the 1990s.
     
  15. Victor E.

    Victor E. Disciple of Christ Supporter

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    Ah yes, I believe those were simpler times as well.

    People generally seemed to hold more conservative values.
     
  16. Newwave

    Newwave New Member

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    Agreed, and for the reasons you outlined, I find it hard to be a believer. It seems like people are rewarded for being the most vile evil types of people and in many cases the “good” are punished. I say “good” in quotations because maybe there really truly is no such thing as good or evil as Nietchze believed, and that the whole idea of good and evil is merely a social construct and nothing more.

    I often wonder if the whole idea of religion is just a red herring created by people in power to try to control the masses behavior so that the ruthless could inherit the planet.
     
  17. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    No, only those in hell actually live in "pure hell." Life on this globe can get incredibly awful but the very worst condition a person may be in here on earth is only a pale shadow of the horror of the "blackness of darkness forever," where there is never-ending "wailing and gnashing of teeth" and tormenting eternal flames from which there will never be relief. However bad things may become in our lives here, the suffering has an end. Not so in hell.

    At times, God has intervened. Repeatedly, He rescued Israel; often, He protected His prophets; Christ healed folk at every turn; God saved us from eternal punishment through Jesus. But He cannot do so all the time. He can't constantly interrupt what we have chosen to do and be without effectively negating our free agency. If we are to truly, freely choose Him in love, God cannot reverse or negate all our free - but evil - choices. To be able to love God, we must be able also to hate Him. And when people choose to hate Him, evil results and the pain, destruction and death that always attend evil. It is this evil, reflected in the many diseases that afflict humanity, in the myriad instances of "man's inhumanity to man," and in the psychological "hell" of minds and hearts deep in the darkness of Self-worship that manifests our wretchedness, freely chosen, not God's. And He allows our sin to bear its terrible fruit because it is a necessary feature of the free agency He has given to us.

    Justice will be done; no one "gets away with it." God who knows and sees all will one day call all people to account for their deeds, rewarding them accordingly. We might want a more immediate accounting (always only for the other person, of course, never for us), but God's ways are better than ours and we ought to trust to His superior justice, informed by His perfect holiness, knowledge, love and mercy rather than our own fallible, ignorant human sense of justice.

    Matthew 16:26-27
    26 "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
    27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.


    1 Peter 4:3-5
    3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry.
    4 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you;
    5 but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.


    Hebrews 10:30-31
    30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


    And rejecting God would improve the experience of the gulag how, exactly? Rather than having God as a "strong tower," as a divine support in the midst of the horrors of the gulag, you would throw off any connection to Him and endure the gulag alone, relying on your meager, weak, human power, your suffering empty of any eternal, divine meaning? Really? How does that make any sense? This seems to me a perfect example of "cutting off your nose to spite your face."

    The former doesn't necessarily require the latter. Acknowledging heaven to come doesn't necessitate a denial of the suffering of the here-and-now. The Bible often acknowledges the suffering of various individuals (not least among them, Christ himself) and it offers divine succour to those who would take it.

    2 Corinthians 1:3-5
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
    4 who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
    5 For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ.


    Psalm 46:1
    1 God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.


    Scripture also puts that suffering in its proper eternal context, giving us important, balancing perspective on it.

    Romans 8:18-21
    18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
    19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
    20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
    21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.


    1 Peter 5:10-11
    10 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.
    11 To him be the dominion forever and ever. Amen.


    God has not made us for ourselves, to serve our own interests, but for Himself. God is the vital Center of Everything; the universe revolves around Him; He is the Ultimate Thing, the Ground of All Reality, the Highest and Best Person we can ever know. Everything is far, far, far downhill from Him. And so, when God offers to us communion with Himself, He has offered to us the greatest gift He could possibly offer. Romance, worldly success, money and power, comfort - these all are tepid, silly things compared to God. But only when one understands properly who God is. If God is small in one's mind, a distant, bearded, smiling "Big Guy in the Sky," nice, harmless, eager to support our agenda, essentially just a super-powered human, it can be very difficult to see why one should take much interest - or comfort - in Him. But such a God is not revealed in Scripture:

    Revelation 1:12-18
    12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
    13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
    14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
    15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
    16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
    17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
    18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.


    Job 40:6-14
    6 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
    7 “Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
    8 Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be in the right?
    9 Have you an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?
    10 “Adorn yourself with majesty and dignity; clothe yourself with glory and splendor.
    11 Pour out the overflowings of your anger, and look on everyone who is proud and abase him.
    12 Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low and tread down the wicked where they stand.
    13 Hide them all in the dust together; bind their faces in the world below.
    14 Then will I also acknowledge to you that your own right hand can save you.


    Deuteronomy 10:17
    17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God...


    1 Timothy 6:13-16
    13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
    14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.


    Here's a good example of the diminishment of God. The "Wizard of Oz"? God is like the "Wizard of Oz"? Have you not read the Bible? Yikes! God couldn't be more unlike this fictional character, a mere human masquerading as something more. So long as God remains small in your thinking, a fraud, like the Wizard of Oz, the sort of faulty ideas you've expressed in your OP will continue to plague you.

    Only as America continues to reject God and drift into the vacuum of meaning that results and the social chaos that inevitably follows. When people forsake God, they inevitably replace Him with themselves; when they throw off God's law and rule, they become their own Law Giver, every person doing that which is right in their own eyes. In such a state, a society descends into disorder, delusion, conflict and violence, growing ripe for a "Strong Man" to assert himself, promising peace, and order, and equality - but at a price: He must rule unopposed, his word being law.

    Such "Strong Men" appear all throughout human history - the worst of them, though, coming to power in the last hundred years or so: Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, Kim Jong-Il, Castro, Hugo Chavez, and so on. God warns of such terrible evil in His word, offering the blessing and peace of His right rule instead. But if we will not be under His authority, we cannot benefit from His protection and goodness.

    But this all starts with God shrinking to insignificance in the minds of people while they swell to inordinate importance at the same time. When this happens, creatures asserting themselves over their Creator, He sends them "a strong delusion that they might believe a lie," judging them according to their own choices, allowing them to race headlong, free of divine constraint, into the darkness and destruction that always lies at the end of people seeking their own way over His.

    Romans 1:21-31
    21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
    23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
    24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
    25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
    26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
    27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
    28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
    29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
    30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
    31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;


    Well, as someone has rightly pointed out, "facts don't care about your feelings." What is true is important, not what we might feel about what is true. See above.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2022
  18. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    Psalm 37:4
    Take delight in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.


    Delighting in the Lord first is the key. God does indeed fill the desires of our hearts when those desires are in accordance with his will, but not sinful desires or desires that we think we want- but if we saw the long term picture actually would not want.

    1 John 5:14
    And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.
    According to his will not ours. The further a person or a society moves away from God the more their desires are sinful, so not in accordance with God's will. The closer someone is to God the more what they desire will be in accordance with God's will.

    God's overall plan is that humans repent and be cleansed from sin and have a relationship with him. Once the full number has come in then God will end this world. God will not end things until there are no more to turn to him.

    If you think God should step in and stop evil, why? If the person having evil committed upon him is also evil why should God rescue him? If the person is righteous and one of God's children God might step in. My father was saved from death many times, one time he believes by angel who stopped him from going with someone who had offered him a bed for the night. Perhaps that 'good Samaritan' really had plans to murder him, only God knows. God certainly has given me the major things that I prayed for, but that doesn't mean I haven't known hardship. Some of that hardship helped me become stronger and more empathetic to others going through similar things. Good like that can come from bad.

    Romans 8:28
    And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
    Again it is only for those who love God. If you don't love God or accept his free gift of Jesus expect nothing. Why should God give to you if you turn your back and spit on him?

    The problem is we often think of ourselves as good or decent and we are not. Before we come to Christ if we could see our sin as God sees it we would be dropping under the weight and darkness of it all.
    “Come now, and let us reason together,” saith the Lord. “Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
    Imagine instead each person is a horrible looking monster covered in blood and filth and stench and this would be more like who we are before we came to Christ.

    Romans 5:8

    8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
    If God came and died for each one of us in this state, has he not done enough for this world?
     
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