Why Did God Hate Esau?

[RDKirk]

Hello RC.

Since God chose Jacob and did not choose Esau, before they were born of course. Is the text telling us that Jacob was saved and Esau was damned?

No. It's not telling us anything about Esau's personal state of salvation. Paul is using it as an example to prove his specific point of the sovereignty of God's choice and His freedom from being obligated by anything a man does.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Colter.

Thanks for your opinion.

God doesn't write books.

God has definitely spoken in the book of Isaiah about His messiah. The Dead Sea scrolls contain the book of Isaiah and in virtually complete form. The Great Isaiah scroll has been dated four times by radiocarbon dating, returning dates between 350 BC and 100 BC. So we know for a fact that the messianic prophecies, contained in the book of Isaiah have not been altered by the Jews. The ancient text was written before Christianity existed.

Non Jews were considered "Gentile dogs." They only allowed Gentiles in because they needed the manpower.

I agree, God grafted these feral dogs into the Christian mix, not something that the Jews expected or even wanted.

And even some of those OT scriptures which have been contorted to apply to Jesus didn't really apply to the Messiah. In fact scant little applies to Jesus. The Jews expectations of a Jewish Messiah was erroneous, Jesus was quite different.

This comment by you is incorrect, the Great Isaiah scroll confirms that the Jews had not altered the text.

 

[klutedavid]

No. It's not telling us anything about Esau's personal state of salvation. Paul is using it as an example to prove his specific point of the sovereignty of God's choice and His freedom from being obligated by anything a man does.

Hello RDKirk.

Do you see this distinction as basically a distinction between faith and works. Paul spends nearly the entire letter to the Romans, hammering the justification before God by faith. God's sovereign election is apart from the law, only through the promise, i.e., Jesus Christ.

Is that the way you interpret the text (Romans 9), not because of works but because of Him who calls?

 

[klutedavid]

Yes. Jacob receives mercy and Esau receives justice.

Hello RC1970.

Because Jacob is chosen and Jacob is also in the direct lineage of Abraham, that is the elected prerequisite. Can you then safely say, that all descendants that are not in the direct lineage of Abraham are cast out?

On the subject of a parallel in the scripture, Issac and Ishmael, Issac was chosen by sovereign election but Ishmael was rejected.

Does this then mean that all the descendants and nations from Ishmael are damned?

Election was only through the lineage of Abraham the scripture states.

 

[Colter]

You are creating a strawman. We are not talking about "fits of rage".
We are talking about "hate". Obviously we can hate someone/something
without having "fits of rage".

So I will simply ask you AGAIN.... does God "hate" the "false prophets" in the church?
Does God "hate" people who are "children of Satan"?

No, God doesn't Hate. Humans hate and project their way of thinking onto God. Hate is an immature emotion. Love is not secondary to anything in the divine nature. Jesus didn't hate anyone, even his enemies.

 

[Colter]

Aren't you a man?

Yes, I know how men think.

 

[Colter]

Hello Colter.

Thanks for your opinion.

God has definitely spoken in the book of Isaiah about His messiah. The Dead Sea scrolls contain the book of Isaiah and in virtually complete form. The Great Isaiah scroll has been dated four times by radiocarbon dating, returning dates between 350 BC and 100 BC. So we know for a fact that the messianic prophecies, contained in the book of Isaiah have not been altered by the Jews. The ancient text was written before Christianity existed.

I agree, God grafted these feral dogs into the Christian mix, not something that the Jews expected or even wanted.

This comment by you is incorrect, the Great Isaiah scroll confirms that the Jews had not altered the text.

The Dead Sea scrolls are copies of what was completed in Babylon.

 

[RDKirk]

Hello RDKirk.

Do you see this distinction as basically a distinction between faith and works. Paul spends nearly the entire letter to the Romans, hammering the justification before God by faith. God's sovereign election is apart from the law, only through the promise, i.e., Jesus Christ.

Is that the way you interpret the text (Romans 9), not because of works but because of Him who calls?

The congregation at Rome was rather unique. It had been originally led by Jewish Christians (particularly, Aquila and Priscilla) for several years. Then by order of Emperor Claudius the Jews (including the Jewish Christians) were expelled from the city. Paul first met Aquila and Priscilla in Corinth during the expulsion. This is all noted in Acts 18:1.

After 3 to 5 years, Jews were permitted back into the city by Emperor Nero, who had succeeded Claudius. During this time, the Roman Gentile Christians had been on their own. In the letter to the Romans we see that Priscilla and Aquila have returned to the Roman congregation (Romans 16:3-5), and it's now meeting in their house.

So this was not an original all-Gentile congregation like the one in Philippi (which was all-Gentile because of the same decree by Claudius), nor was it an original all-Jewish congregation like the one at Ephesus. It was a mixed congregation that had been led by Jews for a while, then led by Gentiles, then led by Jews again.

In this portion of Romans, Paul is talking to the Roman Jewish believers to set them straight on their relative relationship with God compared to the Gentiles. Later, Paul would address the Gentile believers directly as well.

Paul is certainly making the point to the Jewish Christians that God's selection is not based on their bloodline nor on their adherence to procedure. His choice is not based on anything they could do or say or be by their own desire or will.

The Jewish Christians had no answer to the question--nothing in their custom or law provided a reason why God would have chosen the second-born before they were even born.

 

[toLiJC]

So, there are two Esaus - the unholy character and Esau himself. I was unaware of the existence of both of these characters. So, where did God say, Esau himself I have loved, but the unholy character Esau I have hated?

have you never seen a person that is peaceful/quiet and at least sometimes bad or a person that is bad and at least sometimes good?!, the true God doesn't hate any soul, the evil one is who hates souls and is the main murderer from the beginning, and why must all the details be necessarily presented in Scripture?!, why did God create us with a mind, not only with eyes to read and ears to hear?!

Blessings

 

[RDKirk]

Hello RC1970.

Because Jacob is chosen and Jacob is also in the direct lineage of Abraham, that is the elected prerequisite.

Esau and Jacob were fraternal twins--same father. Esau was just as much in the direct lineage of Abraham as Jacob, and was the first-born at that.

 

[Deadworm]

Romans 9:13 says, "As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”.

I have two questions regarding this text in the book of Romans. Please answer both questions, and provide a brief explanation of your answers if you wish.

1) Why did God hate Esau?

2) What was the consequence of God’'s hate for Esau?

​

Question (2): The answer becomes clear once the citation of Malachi 1:3 in Romans 9:10-13 is recognized. Malachi l:2-3 reads: “’I have loved you [Israel],’” says the LORD. But you ask, 'How have you loved us?' ‘Was not Esau Jacob's brother?’ The LORD says. ‘Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.’” Thus, God's "hatred" of Esau (=Edom) results in the Edom's destruction and in Edom's designation as "the people with whom the Lord is angry forever (1:5)." This is a difficult text because God's hatred" of Isaac finds expression in His permanent "anger" against Edom; so the problematic venom cannot easily be removed from God's "hatred" here. All we can say to mitigate the offense is that God's hatred and anger directed at Esau is by extension directed against the kingdom of Edom and its sins.

Paul invokes arbitrary divine election as an explanation of how God's "hatred" of Esau can be "just" (Romans 9:14-15). But God's "hatred" is not "just" in the modern sense of equal opportunity based on merit. "Mercy" and "justice" here stand in tension and the claim of divine justice boils down to a problematic claim that God makes the rules, and so, "justice" is whatever He wants it to be. Tensions like this have the unfortunate consequence of feeding the secular narrative that dismisses the OT God as an arbitrary tyrant who, among other things, orders the Israelite slaughter of innocent women and children!

Question (1): How can God be defended against such charges? Well, consider 2 versions of a saying of Jesus that illustrate His use of "hate:"
"Whoever comes to me, and does not hate father, mother, wife and children...cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:26)."
"Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son of daughter more than me is not worthy of me (Matthew 10:37)."
As a believer in the 10 Commandments, Jesus cannot literally be insisting on venomous hatred of parents! Jesus' use of "hate" here is in fact an Aramaic idiom that refers to priorities ("more than"). And the divine "hatred" of Esau primarily refers to God's disapproval of Edom's (= Esau) subsequent sins.

 

[RC1970]

Hello RC1970.

Because Jacob is chosen and Jacob is also in the direct lineage of Abraham, that is the elected prerequisite. Can you then safely say, that all descendants that are not in the direct lineage of Abraham are cast out?

On the subject of a parallel in the scripture, Issac and Ishmael, Issac was chosen by sovereign election but Ishmael was rejected.

Does this then mean that all the descendants and nations from Ishmael are damned?

Election was only through the lineage of Abraham the scripture states.

The verse (really the whole chapter) proves that God is not concerned with linage when it comes to salvation.

 

[Colter]

Question (2): The answer becomes clear once the citation of Malachi 1:3 in Romans 9:10-13 is recognized. Malachi l:2-3 reads: “’I have loved you [Israel],’” says the LORD. But you ask, 'How have you loved us?' ‘Was not Esau Jacob's brother?’ The LORD says. ‘Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.’” Thus, God's "hatred" of Esau (=Edom) results in the Edom's destruction and in Edom's designation as "the people with whom the Lord is angry forever (1:5)." This is a difficult text because God's hatred" of Isaac finds expression in His permanent "anger" against Edom; so the problematic venom cannot easily be removed from God's "hatred" here. All we can say to mitigate the offense is that God's hatred and anger directed at Esau is by extension directed against the kingdom of Edom and its sins.

Paul invokes arbitrary divine election as an explanation of how God's "hatred" of Esau can be "just" (Romans 9:14-15). But God's "hatred" is not "just" in the modern sense of equal opportunity based on merit. "Mercy" and "justice" here stand in tension and the claim of divine justice boils down to a problematic claim that God makes the rules, and so, "justice" is whatever He wants it to be. Tensions like this have the unfortunate consequence of feeding the secular narrative that dismisses the OT God as an arbitrary tyrant who, among other things, orders the Israelite slaughter of innocent women and children!

Question (1): How can God be defended against such charges? Well, consider 2 versions of a saying of Jesus that illustrate His use of "hate:"
"Whoever comes to me, and does not hate father, mother, wife and children...cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:26)."
"Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son of daughter more than me is not worthy of me (Matthew 10:37)."
As a believer in the 10 Commandments, Jesus cannot literally be insisting on venomous hatred of parents! Jesus' use of "hate" here is in fact an Aramaic idiom that refers to priorities ("more than"). And the divine "hatred" of Esau primarily refers to God's disapproval of Edom's (= Esau) subsequent sins.

Good points.

 

[RC1970]

Question (2): The answer becomes clear once the citation of Malachi 1:3 in Romans 9:10-13 is recognized. Malachi l:2-3 reads: “’I have loved you [Israel],’” says the LORD. But you ask, 'How have you loved us?' ‘Was not Esau Jacob's brother?’ The LORD says. ‘Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.’” Thus, God's "hatred" of Esau (=Edom) results in the Edom's destruction and in Edom's designation as "the people with whom the Lord is angry forever (1:5)." This is a difficult text because God's hatred" of Isaac finds expression in His permanent "anger" against Edom; so the problematic venom cannot easily be removed from God's "hatred" here. All we can say to mitigate the offense is that God's hatred and anger directed at Esau is by extension directed against the kingdom of Edom and its sins.

Paul invokes arbitrary divine election as an explanation of how God's "hatred" of Esau can be "just" (Romans 9:14-15). But God's "hatred" is not "just" in the modern sense of equal opportunity based on merit. "Mercy" and "justice" here stand in tension and the claim of divine justice boils down to a problematic claim that God makes the rules, and so, "justice" is whatever He wants it to be. Tensions like this have the unfortunate consequence of feeding the secular narrative that dismisses the OT God as an arbitrary tyrant who, among other things, orders the Israelite slaughter of innocent women and children!

Question (1): How can God be defended against such charges? Well, consider 2 versions of a saying of Jesus that illustrate His use of "hate:"
"Whoever comes to me, and does not hate father, mother, wife and children...cannot be my disciple (Luke 14:26)."
"Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son of daughter more than me is not worthy of me (Matthew 10:37)."
As a believer in the 10 Commandments, Jesus cannot literally be insisting on venomous hatred of parents! Jesus' use of "hate" here is in fact an Aramaic idiom that refers to priorities ("more than"). And the divine "hatred" of Esau primarily refers to God's disapproval of Edom's (= Esau) subsequent sins.

First, God's choice is not arbitrary, He has a "purpose".
Second, God's rejection of Esau has no view to his future actions "neither having done any good or evil".

 

[5thKingdom]

No, God doesn't Hate. Humans hate and project their way of thinking onto God. Hate is an immature emotion. Love is not secondary to anything in the divine nature. Jesus didn't hate anyone, even his enemies.

While I appreciate your "feelings" on the subject... you neglected to provide Scripture
to support your opinion. Let's just assume that we are not talking about God hating
SATAN and all the fallen angels. Let's assume we are only talking about people.

Psalm 5:5 seems to disagree with you:
Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: THOU HATEST all workers of iniquity.

In proverbs 6 seems to disagree with you also:
Pro 6:16 These six things DOTH THE LORD HATE: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

It is probably safe to say that God does not only hate the "hands" of murderers...
He hates every other part of them... since not only the "hands" are destined for
an eternity of torment.

1Co6 indicates God hates more than just murderers...
since all manner of EVIL PEOPLE must suffer eternal torment.

1Co 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor
abusers of themselves with mankind,1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards,
nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Lev 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you:
for they committed all these things, and THEREFORE I ABHORRED THEM.

Hos 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I HATED THEM: for the wickedness
of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes
are revolters.


So I have provided 5-6 passages of SCRIPTURE saying that God HATES people...
do you have ANY SCRIPTURE that supports your "feelings" that God does not
hate people?

 

[toLiJC]

What does that MEAN... that God hated the "unholy character of Esau....
the unholy person IN (Esau), not Esau himself...."?

What SCRIPTURE teaches such a thing?

And what do you mean God did not have "enough good opportunity" to save Esau?
God is the one who MAKES such opportunities... is He not?

Jim

.

the Bible is full of scriptures, it is another question whether everyone who reads the Bible understands it right (without deceiving themselves) - how can you imagine the true God, Who had done only good through His Son, being full of hatred for His Own creatures that He have made after His Own image?! (1 John 1:5, 1 John 4:7-16, James 3:8-10)

has God managed to remove all evil from humankind for the last millennia and to provide all humans with abundant and eternal life?!, or if someone says that He has always been able to do it but has not wanted to, then how is it possible that the One, whose mercy surpasses the human mercy zillions of times, has always been able to save the world but has quite deliberately not done it given that there have been some people to want there to be full salvation and abundant/eternal life for everyone but have not had the power to save the world (which has been the only thing that has prevented them from achieving it)?!, or is He worse than humans?!, for example, if you are a parent of many children and love each of them very much and have everything necessary to provide each of them with everything they need to live paradisaically for a full lifetime, won't you provide each of them with a full life?!, how much more does the Heavenly Father love His creatures humans and want to provide each of them with abundant and eternal life?!, otherwise He would be a dictator, oppressor, exploiter, manipulator, conspirator, and who knows what else of this kind if He was able to provide the souls with abundant and eternal life at any time but did quite deliberately not do it...

Blessings

 

[5thKingdom]

.... the true God doesn't hate any soul...

Then why are there so many souls DESTINED in eternal torment?
Why are only the elect SAVED from that torment?

 

[5thKingdom]

how can you imagine the true God, Who had done only good through His Son, being full of hatred for His Own creatures that He have made after His Own image?!

I can imagine the True God as a "consuming fire" and a HATER of some people
because that is exactly what the Bible says.

So what do we do with Scriptures that state that God HATES certain people?
Do we simply ignore those Scriptures... or do we HARMONIZE them into our doctrine?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Yes, I know how men think.

Yet, you free from the weakness of every other man?

You said, "Men tend to create God in their own image." I agree, and I can point to many of your posts in which you are engaged in just that.

 

[toLiJC]

Then why are there so many souls DESTINED in eternal torment?
Why are only the elect SAVED from that torment?

let's say the true God is not so powerful that He can prevent the souls from being born under sin and death for all the time's infinity, let's say He can save the souls for some long period of time, longer than a millennium, let's say that period is tens of thousands of years long or more, but not infinitely long, let's say there is something in the universe that doesn't allow there to be indefinitely lasting life for the souls, and that thing is not the true God Himself, but is a constant and indestructible part of the universe like Him...

or as some people say let's suppose/assume...

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.",

Revelation 21:6 "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.",

Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Blessings