Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

[sovereigngrace]

1) YES i do
2) Show me the scripture that you believe teaches this
3) for the Blind as well? or Just for people with working eyes? and will those in Japan see with their physical eyes a physical Jesus touch foot on the mount of Olives? How? Scripture please.
4) for the Deaf too, or just for those if us with working ears? Scripture please.
Surely this shouldn't bee to difficult for someone like you who claims "the coming of the lord" is an ongoing event unfolding over the entire intra-advent period..no?

1. What Scriptures do you believe teaches a literal future coming of Christ?
2. What Scriptures do you believe teaches a bodily future coming of Christ?

5) yes I do... I'm Catholic... Christ comes Bodily in every Eucharist every day. so yes, He'll come tomorrow, which is future from today, BODILY.

Do you believe that the new birth is a decision an individual makes to commit to Christ that makes them a new creature and changes them for time and eternity?

 

[sovereigngrace]

How did the cross fulfill all this?:

In this vision, God (the “Ancient of Days,” [v. 9]) sits in judgment over the beasts that had been ruling the earth. He executes judgment and takes their dominion away from them (vv. 11–12).
The dominion of the earth is taken from the beasts and given to “one like a son of man” (v. 13). This one becomes Lord of all and is given to reign over all “peoples, nations, and languages” in a kingdom that will never end (v. 14).​

I did not say the cross fulfilled all this. You are always trying to put words in my mouth. This occurred after the cross. This was the inauguration of His Messianic reign upon heaven's throne. He had to first defeat sin, death, the grave and Satan in order to assume that lofty position.

 

[Christian Gedge]

I would like to join the discussion with a contribution relating to the start time and finish time of the old covenant. ( not AD 70) However, I’m out of town today and can’t get to it right now. Will be back.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Soon in God's view or Soon in Man's View?

You said before that Soon in scripture means Gods view, not man's... is this verse the exception to your rule?

It is talking about those who are on earth just prior to Christ's one and only future coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people; and there shall be heard in her no more the voice of weeping and the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for calamity; for they are the seed of the blessed of Jehovah, and their offspring with them.

Here, Isaiah testifiers that during the New Heavens and earth Period there WILL BE:
BIRTH,
AGEING,
PROCREATION,
VOCATIONS,
THE NEED FOR SHELTER, NOURISHMENT
DEATH,
SINNERS.

You Disagree.
Please us this scripture to demonstrate why it does not teach what I claim.

And Revelation 20?

 

[mkgal1]

I did not say the cross fulfilled all this. This occurred after the cross. This was the inauguration of His Messianic reign upon heaven's throne. He had to first sin, death, the grave and Satan in order to assume that lofty position.

He had to first sin? Is that a typo, I hope?

What event caused this to happen? Or are you still waiting for it to occur?

In this vision, God (the “Ancient of Days,” [v. 9]) sits in judgment over the beasts that had been ruling the earth. He executes judgment and takes their dominion away from them (vv. 11–12).​

 

[sovereigngrace]

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people; and there shall be heard in her no more the voice of weeping and the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for calamity; for they are the seed of the blessed of Jehovah, and their offspring with them.

Here, Isaiah testifiers that during the New Heavens and earth Period there WILL BE:
BIRTH,
AGEING,
PROCREATION,
VOCATIONS,
THE NEED FOR SHELTER, NOURISHMENT
DEATH,
SINNERS.

You Disagree.
Please us this scripture to demonstrate why it does not teach what I claim.

Isaiah 65:17-21 declares, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”

The one thing we know for sure is that Scripture does not contradict itself in any way. The way some theologians explain this passage would lead you to believe that this passage is the one exception to this rule in Scripture. Of course, we know it isn’t (or can’t be). This much-debated passage before us must therefore beautifully correlates with other similar Scripture, which informs us that the Coming of Christ is climactic and that the new earth is totally free of the curse. It is essential that we always interpret difficult passages like this with other clearer and simpler passages.

The first thing we see in this reading is the time period in view; the Old Testament prophet explains that he is specifically speaking of the “new heavens and a new earth.” This is indisputable and cannot be a matter for theological debate. Whilst there are challenging parts to this passage, we can be sure of the fact that the detail described will be fulfilled in the “new heavens and a new earth.” In fact, the wording is so explicit in relation to the time-period that it removes any ambiguity or uncertainty for the reader on that front. This is the first absolute we can establish with this reading.

Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and not imposing a private interpretation on this Old Testament chapter means letting New Testament Scripture locate the “new heavens and a new earth.” Various passages show the removal of the old corrupt heavens and earth at the coming of Christ and their replacement with the new perfect heavens and earth. Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-37: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.”

Revelation expressly locates the new earth after the millennial period and not at the beginning. Revelation 21:1-5 tells us: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more sin on the new earth. You say there is sin on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more death on the new earth. You say there is death on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more pain on the new earth. You say there is pain on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more sorrow on the new earth. You say there is pain on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there are no more tears on the new earth. You say there is tears on the new earth.
Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more corruption on the new earth. You say there is corruption on the new earth.

There is no sin or corruption in the new heavens or on the new earth. There is therefore no death or decay, sickness or rebellion. It is a perfect holy environment that is free of iniquity. 2 Peter 3:13 confirms: “we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” The Bible makes clear that this current earth is purged at the Second Coming of all the repercussions of the fall and perfected for His glory.

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

God in His providence and infinite wisdom has ordained a day when He will finally bring time, evil and the bondage of corruption to an end. This passage speaks of an approaching climactic event in history that will eventually and eternally release all creation from a position of current anguish and despair to a place of total liberation and relief. In fact, there can be no doubt; the central focus of this whole passage is the yearning of “the whole creation” for the day when “the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” There is indeed a termination to the “bondage of corruption” – it is the one and only future all-consummating Coming of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 tells us that the regeneration of the creation occurs at the same time as the regeneration of elect man. The glorious eternal kingdom that the saints inherit at the Coming of Christ is pristine and perfect. It strictly forbids the wicked and all corruption. It declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.

 

[sovereigngrace]

He had to first sin? Is that a typo, I hope?

What event caused this to happen? Or are you still waiting for it to occur?

In this vision, God (the “Ancient of Days,” [v. 9]) sits in judgment over the beasts that had been ruling the earth. He executes judgment and takes their dominion away from them (vv. 11–12).​

This was what happened immediately after Christ's defeated sin, death, the grave and Satan at the cross 2000 years ago.

 

[sovereigngrace]

He had to first sin? Is that a typo, I hope?

What event caused this to happen? Or are you still waiting for it to occur?

In this vision, God (the “Ancient of Days,” [v. 9]) sits in judgment over the beasts that had been ruling the earth. He executes judgment and takes their dominion away from them (vv. 11–12).​

Yes, ooops. Sorry. I reworded it.

 

[mkgal1]

I did not say the cross fulfilled all this. You are always trying to put words in my mouth

I'm not attempting to put words in your mouth. I'm just trying to understand your view. You emphasize frequently how "it was finished" on the Cross, but I've been trying to point out that tied to the Messianic prophecies are judgement and a vindication of His saints.

 

[mkgal1]

This was what happened immediately after Christ's defeated sin, death, the grave and Satan at the cross 2000 years ago.

So, the resurrection?

Do you see how it can be confusing for me to try to follow what you're saying? You accused me of putting words in your mouth when I asked how the Cross fulfilled the removal of the beast's dominion - and now you're describing it to have occurred immediately after He defeated sin, death, and the grave "at the Cross". ???? I've understood your argument to be that "all was finished at the Cross until Jesus returns physically again"? Have you changed your mind on that?

 

[mkgal1]

Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and not imposing a private interpretation on this Old Testament chapter means letting New Testament Scripture locate the “new heavens and a new earth

That's an excellent method, but that isn't what you're following below:

Revelation 21 & 22 tells us that there is no more sin on the new earth. You say there is sin on the new earth

If nothing unclean exists (sin) then why would it be brought up that it wouldn't enter into the New Jerusalem? Rev 22:15 has sin right outside the New Jerusalem - so I can't interpret that to mean "no more sin on the new earth".

Revelation 21:27 ~ But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who practices an abomination or a lie, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Revelation 22:15 ~ Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving and practicing falsehood.​

 

[sovereigngrace]

So, the resurrection?

Do you see how it can be confusing for me to try to follow what you're saying? You accused me of putting words in your mouth when I asked how the Cross fulfilled the removal of the beast's dominion - and now you're describing it to have occurred immediately after He defeated sin, death, and the grave "at the Cross". ???? I've understood your argument to be that "all was finished at the Cross until Jesus returns physically again"? Have you changed your mind on that?

Christ's earthly ministry, death and resurrection was D-Day. It was the key battle of time. His second coming is V-Day. It is the final implementation of His earthly assignment. It is the full and final realization of Christ's great eternal victory. It sees the eternal destruction of every enemy of righteousness and introduction of the perfect state.

This is a great mystery described by many able theologians as the contrast between the already/not yet. There is a definite contrast yet correlation between time and eternity, the seen and the unseen, the corruptible and the incorruptible, the imperfect and the perfect, the physical and the spiritual, the natural and the supernatural, the earthly and the heavenly. Preterist only see the past. Futurist only see the future. Balanced Bible believers see no conflict, just an incredible blessed mysterious revealing master-plan that will soon be fully and wholly realized.

 

[sovereigngrace]

That's an excellent method, but that isn't what you're following below:

How so?

 

[mkgal1]

I did not say the cross fulfilled all this. You are always trying to put words in my mouth. This occurred after the cross.

This was what happened immediately after Christ's defeated sin, death, the grave and Satan at the cross 2000 years ago.

Can you see how it's confusing to grasp your belief framework?

What caused this to happen - what fulfilled Daniel 7:11-12?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Can you see how it's confusing to grasp your belief framework?

What caused this to happen - what fulfilled Daniel 7:11-12?

No!

In case you didn't realize, the resurrection occurred 3 days after the cross. Christ's death was not enough in itself. The resurrection was the victory over sin, death and the grave!

 

[mkgal1]

How so?

I've edited post #654 to elaborate.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Can you see how it's confusing to grasp your belief framework?

What caused this to happen - what fulfilled Daniel 7:11-12?

This is what you do with the Scriptures also. You twist them to say the opposite to what they mean.

This occurred after the cross (namely the resurrection).

This was what happened immediately after Christ's defeated sin, death, the grave and Satan at the cross 2000 years ago (namely the resurrection).

I am saying the exact same thing!

 

[mkgal1]

No!

In case you didn't realize, the resurrection occurred 3 days after the cross. Christ's death was not enough in itself. The resurrection was the victory over sin, death and the grave!

I realize that (and I still wonder what you do with all that was fulfilled at Pentecost, but that may be another discussion another time) - but is that what you're referring to? That the Resurrection fulfilled the prophecy of the stripping away of the dominion of the beasts in Daniel 7:11-12?

Because I believe the Resurrection stripped the High Priest of His role (he could no longer offer the annual sacrifice of Yom Kippur with the Holy of Holies exposed).....but the early church was still suffering from persecution.....and hadn't experienced the relief that they expected from a literal and physical removal of the dominion of the apostate religious system that was crushing them.

A side note: Something I recently read, about the 40 years from the Cross until the destruction of the Temple on every annual Yom Kippur: the scapegoat ritual was still followed, and against the law of chance, the chosen lot never came up in the right hand and the cord never came up white again.....and the western light never burned again.....revealing nothing but darkness and desolation in the Holy of Holies.


The Talmuds state:

"Forty years before the Temple was destroyed (30 A.D.) the chosen lot was not picked with the right hand, nor did the crimson stripe turn white, nor did the westernmost light burn; and the doors of the Temple’s Holy Place swung open by themselves, until Rabbi Yochanon ben Zakkai spoke saying: 'O most Holy Place, why have you become disturbed? I know full well that your destiny will be destruction, for the prophet Zechariah ben Iddo has already spoken regarding you saying: 'Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour the cedars' (Zech. 11:1).' Talmud Bavli, Yoma 39b​

 

[mkgal1]

This is what you do with the Scriptures also. You twist them to say the opposite to what they mean.

This occurred after the cross (namely the resurrection).

This was what happened immediately after Christ's defeated sin, death, the grave and Satan at the cross 2000 years ago (namely the resurrection).

I am saying the exact same thing!

It would be much more clear if you just stated that in the first place (at the Resurrection).
"After the Cross" leaves quite a bit of room.

You've yet to give an example of your accusation of where I've "twisted Scripture to say the opposite of what they mean".....or how this is even an example of me twisting anything. IOW.....it's just an empty insult tossed my way again.