Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

[Kaon]

There are nearly as many eschatological views as there are denominations in the church. The reality is, all of them cannot be right. So take your stand wherever you like and don't worry about the next person's. IMHO there are no two people who believe it exactly the same way.

That's right: stand for something, and hope that the Father will enlighten us to the full width of the right path. Many of us are on the shoulder median, or edge of the path.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Pretribbers rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it to some imaginary seven-year period at the end, to support their end-time beliefs.

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. Also, it has absolutely nothing to do with the end of time. It rather describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”

Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”

Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10-12: “They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”

Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.”

Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”

Jeremiah 25:9-11: “Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."

Jeremiah 30:3-7: “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

Jeremiah 30:10-11: “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”

This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. Babylon was utterly destroyed. They were only one of many nations over the centuries. Today in this New Testament era, those who oppose God's only nation the Church face the same outcome.

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.

Jeremiah 32:44: “Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD."

Jeremiah 51:1: “Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.”

If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.” I don’t believe there is any question that an objective analyze of this book would come to any other conclusion than the fact that Jeremiah is describing Israel’s captivity in Babylon in his day. There is no mention (or context) of end-times in the prophet’s writings on this matter. Quite the opposite.

The day of trouble that is being highlighted happened long ago in the old covenant period. It does not relate to some supposed future period after Christ returns and saves Israel. Whoever is not saved when Jesus comes is immediately and eternally destroyed.

Many have all been infected with the Scofield interpretation of Scripture instead of the Holy Spirit’s interpretation of the same. I can only conclude that the future location of Jacob’s trouble is a Pretrib invention, misconception and/or misinterpretation.

its funny I noted Jacobs trouble in this context of Jer 31 and spent all of my time expounding that chapter and your rebuttal ignores my entire presentation on Jer 31 and other related passages and focuses on something I mentioned and did not expound. Ill pass on this portion of the debate and would prefer to here your view on Jer 31 and in particular the verses I shared.

 

[sovereigngrace]

its funny I noted Jacobs trouble in this context of Jer 31 and spent all of my time expounding that chapter and your rebuttal ignores my entire presentation on Jer 31 and other related passages and focuses on something I mentioned and did not expound. Ill pass on this portion of the debate and would prefer to here your view on Jer 31 and in particular the verses I shared.

Because i showed you how Jer 30 is long-fulfilled. I also showed you in detail how there will be no 3rd temple. It therefore rendered your thesis moot.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Because i showed you how Jer 30 is long-fulfilled. I also showed you in detail how there will be no 3rd temple. It therefore rendered your thesis moot.

Lets look at Jer 30 and see if your closed case has any loopholes. In Jer 31 we see the city being rebuilt for the LORD and Holy to the LORD and the promise is that it will not be thrown down again at the time it is rebuild there will be dead bodies a plenty. . Now If Jer 30 is speaking about the return from Babylon they were sent there to rebuild and there were no dead bodies in the valley and indeed it was thrown down again. So here is your 1st major contradiction. Jer 30 notes
But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them. Now David is promised 3 times in scripture to be raised up.
so when is this supposed to happen? Jer 30
3 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it. I do not think you can conclude that after 70 years in Babylon we are in the latter days.

Chapter 31 opens with a clear connection to the latter days mentioned at the end of 30

1 “At the same time,” says the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”
2 Thus says the LORD:
The promises here to Israel go on and are what is realized in the latter days

Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘O LORD, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.
9 They shall come with weeping,
And with supplications I will lead them.
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
For I am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.
10 “Hear the word of the LORD, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
11 For the LORD has redeemed Jacob,
And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
Streaming to the goodness of the LORD—
For wheat and new wine and oil,
For the young of the flock and the herd;
Their souls shall be like a well-watered garden,
And they shall sorrow no more at all.

Note in these promises they will sorrow no more at all. Now If the LORD comes as in Zech 14 there will be both dead bodies everywhere and the city will be rebuilt and holy. They will not be diminished they will be gathered back from all nations and they will have no more sorrow from that point on.

This is a brief retort to your closed case and it is not a closed case brother but the LORD is accomplishing every promise to the nation and not to worry there is spiritual Israel too. Replacement theology is ignoring every promise to keep the covenant with Abraham for the land and the people will be holy believers in Jesus and finally realize the intention of God from the beginning.

isaiah 61 is a key text as again the LORD is Zion focused on what is accomplished in the day of vengeance and it is not the destruction of Israel but their salvation.

Jesus said he was the one in Isaiah 61 and noted that this day a portion of the 1st sentance was fulfilled in their hearing. The rest of the chapter is what Jesus will accomplish in the day of vengeance. It speaks for itself but again it is note that the city will be built after the day of vengeance.

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

If you read this and take it literally it is what and when Israel is saved and Jesus keeps the prophecy of Luke one.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Lets look at Jer 30 and see if your closed case has any loopholes. In Jer 31 we see the city being rebuilt for the LORD and Holy to the LORD and the promise is that it will not be thrown down again at the time it is rebuild there will be dead bodies a plenty. . Now If Jer 30 is speaking about the return from Babylon they were sent there to rebuild and there were no dead bodies in the valley and indeed it was thrown down again. So here is your 1st major contradiction. Jer 30 notes
But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them. Now David is promised 3 times in scripture to be raised up.
so when is this supposed to happen? Jer 30
3 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it. I do not think you can conclude that after 70 years in Babylon we are in the latter days.

Chapter 31 opens with a clear connection to the latter days mentioned at the end of 30

1 “At the same time,” says the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”
2 Thus says the LORD:
The promises here to Israel go on and are what is realized in the latter days

Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘O LORD, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.
9 They shall come with weeping,
And with supplications I will lead them.
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
For I am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.
10 “Hear the word of the LORD, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
11 For the LORD has redeemed Jacob,
And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
Streaming to the goodness of the LORD—
For wheat and new wine and oil,
For the young of the flock and the herd;
Their souls shall be like a well-watered garden,
And they shall sorrow no more at all.

Note in these promises they will sorrow no more at all. Now If the LORD comes as in Zech 14 there will be both dead bodies everywhere and the city will be rebuilt and holy. They will not be diminished they will be gathered back from all nations and they will have no more sorrow from that point on.

This is a brief retort to your closed case and it is not a closed case brother but the LORD is accomplishing every promise to the nation and not to worry there is spiritual Israel too. Replacement theology is ignoring every promise to keep the covenant with Abraham for the land and the people will be holy believers in Jesus and finally realize the intention of God from the beginning.

isaiah 61 is a key text as again the LORD is Zion focused on what is accomplished in the day of vengeance and it is not the destruction of Israel but their salvation.

Jesus said he was the one in Isaiah 61 and noted that this day a portion of the 1st sentance was fulfilled in their hearing. The rest of the chapter is what Jesus will accomplish in the day of vengeance. It speaks for itself but again it is note that the city will be built after the day of vengeance.

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

If you read this and take it literally it is what and when Israel is saved and Jesus keeps the prophecy of Luke one.

Can I remind you, after they came back from Babylon and took their land, as was promised by multiple prophets, their Messiah came and brought the new covenant and everlasting peace for those who would embrace Him. Faithful Israel embraced him and became the New Testament Church? We have an integrated into that faithful Israel.

 

[mkgal1]

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. Also, it has absolutely nothing to do with the end of time.

It had to do with the "end of time" for Babylon. You even said that yourself, here:​

This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. Babylon was utterly destroyed.

Also notice the language in Isaiah that was used to describe this point in history (which took place around 539 BC when the Medes destroyed Babylon. It was the Babylonian world that came to an end - I hope everyone recognizes that the entire global earth didn't end back then and that even though the text states an end will be put to arrogance and pride, unfortunately that isn't literal):

Isaiah 13:6-13 ~
Judgment on the Day of the LORD​

Wail, for the day of the LORD is near!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Therefore all hands will fall limp,
And every man’s heart will melt.

They will be terrified,
Pains and anguish will take hold of them;
They will writhe like a woman in labor,
They will look at one another in astonishment,
Their faces aflame.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.

For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.

Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud
And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold
And mankind than the gold of Ophir.

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
And the earth will be shaken from its place
At the fury of the LORD of hosts
In the day of His burning anger.​

 

[sovereigngrace]

It had to do with the "end of time" for Babylon. You even said that yourself, here:​

Also notice the language in Isaiah that was used to describe this point in history (which took place around 539 BC when the Medes destroyed Babylon. It was the Babylonian world that came to an end - I hope everyone recognizes that the entire global earth didn't end back then and that even though the text states an end will be put to arrogance and pride, unfortunately that isn't literal):

Isaiah 13:6-13 ~
Judgment on the Day of the LORD​

Wail, for the day of the LORD is near!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Therefore all hands will fall limp,
And every man’s heart will melt.

They will be terrified,
Pains and anguish will take hold of them;
They will writhe like a woman in labor,
They will look at one another in astonishment,
Their faces aflame.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.

For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.

Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud
And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold
And mankind than the gold of Ophir.

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
And the earth will be shaken from its place
At the fury of the LORD of hosts
In the day of His burning anger.​

Not so! It is "mystery Babylon" in the NT, not ancient Babylon. It is a symbol used in Revelation, like Sodom, Egypt and Jerusalem, to represent the evil of this world.

 

[mkgal1]

Not so! It is "mystery Babylon in the NT. It is a symbol used in Revelation, like Sodom, Egypt and Jerusalem, to represent the evil of this world.

I don't understand what you're asserting isn't so. Are you suggesting Isaiah 13 isn't about the end of Babylon in 539 BC? Because I wasn't bringing up anything in the NT.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't understand what you're asserting isn't so. Are you suggesting Isaiah 13 isn't about the end of Babylon in 539 BC? Because I wasn't bringing up anything in the NT.

I thought you were apply this to this NT era?

 

[mkgal1]

I thought you were apply this to this NT era?

Uh, no. I was applying it to 539 BC - when the Medes destroyed Babylon (that is the context I understand Isaiah 13 to be). Do you notice the language there? Certainly the global earth wasn't destroyed then....nor the earth literally shaken from its place. That's apocalyptic language used repeatedly throughout the Hebrew literature of the Old Testament to describe God's judgement (Days of the Lord).

Isaiah 24 is another excellent example of that - historically this was when Nebuchadnezzar invaded Israel (587 BC) and carried away the Israelites into captivity. In Matthew Henry's commentary on Isa 24, he writes, " Sin has turned the earth upside down; the earth is become quite different to man, from what it was when God first made it to be his habitation" ~ Isaiah 24 Bible Commentary - Matthew Henry (concise)

Isaiah 24:4-23 ~
4The earth mourns and withers;

the world languishes and fades;

the exalted of the earth waste away.5The earth is defiled by its people;

they have transgressed the laws;

they have overstepped the decrees

and broken the everlasting covenant.6Therefore a curse has consumed the earth,

and its inhabitants must bear the guilt;

the earth’s dwellers have been burned,

and only a few survive.7The new wine dries up, the vine withers.

All the merrymakers now groan.8The joyful tambourines have ceased;

the noise of revelers has stopped;

the joyful harp is silent.9They no longer sing and drink wine;

strong drink is bitter to those who consume it.10The city of chaos is shattered;

every house is closed to entry.11In the streets they cry out for wine.

All joy turns to gloom;

rejoicing is exiled from the land.12The city is left in ruins;

its gate is reduced to rubble.13So will it be on the earth

and among the nations,

like a harvested olive tree,

like a gleaning after a grape harvest.14They raise their voices, they shout for joy;

from the westa they proclaim the majesty of the LORD.15Therefore glorify the LORD in the east.

Extol the name of the LORD, the God of Israel

in the islandsb of the sea.16From the ends of the earth we hear singing:

“Glory to the Righteous One.”

But I said, “I am wasting away! I am wasting away!

Woe is me.”

The treacherous betray;

the treacherous deal in treachery.17Terror and pit and snare await you,

O dwellers of the earth.18Whoever flees the sound of terror

will fall into a pit,

and whoever climbs from the pit

will be caught in a trap.

For the windows of heaven are open,

and the foundations of the earth are shaken.19The earth is utterly broken apart,

the earth is split open,

the earth is shaken violently.20The earth staggers like a drunkard

and sways like a shack.

Earth’s rebellion weighs it down,

and it falls, never to rise again.21In that day the LORD will punish

the host of heaven above

and the kings of the earth below.22They will be gathered together

like prisoners in a pit.

They will be confined to a dungeon

and punished after many days.

23The moon will be confounded

and the sun will be ashamed;

for the LORD of Hosts will reign

on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,

and before His elders with great glory.​

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't understand what you're asserting isn't so. Are you suggesting Isaiah 13 isn't about the end of Babylon in 539 BC? Because I wasn't bringing up anything in the NT.

Isaiah 13 is speaking about the second coming. The Prophet Isaiah warned men of the destructive character of the day, saying in Isaiah 13:6-9, “Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty … the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.”

The day of the Lord is the day of His wrath, a wrath that is poured out on the earth and “the sinner” (note – sinner not the saints). The righteous are caught up before the wrath is poured out at Christ’s Coming, and the whole wicked are destroyed.

We can see that the day of the Lord is the day of His wrath, a wrath that is poured out on the earth in which “the sinner” shall be destroyed. The passage you quote along with many forbid the possibility of sinners surviving in order to populate the new earth.

Isaiah 13:10-13 continues, “For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.”

Scripture repeatedly identifies this day when “the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place,” when the sun and the host of heaven will at last fail to give their light, when the wicked are finally punished and “cease” their iniquitous ways, as the day of the one final climactic Coming of Christ. It is a day which comes unexpectedly “as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up” (2 Peter 3:10). This is the same solemn day that Christ warned would suddenly arrive with the glory of His Coming. It will witness “the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken” (Matthew 24:29-31). It is a day that sees both the destruction of the wicked and the elements.

The prophet declares, “And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease.”

Joel 3:12-17 says, “Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.”

This passage describes a climactic point in history that sees the replacing of the old arrangement of the heavens and the earth (with its inbuilt sin, wickedness and decay) with a new just eternal state of the “new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This reading points to a day when the “stranger” (or Wªzaariym) or foreigner or profane man will never again be permitted to “pass through” the habitation of the righteous in Jerusalem. This is undoubtedly speaking of the eternal abode of the believer, which follows the Second Coming, after the wicked have been finally judged and received their awful sentence. It is only then that mankind will be finally

 

[sovereigngrace]

Uh, no. I was applying it to 539 BC - when the Medes destroyed Babylon (that is the context I understand Isaiah 13 to be). Do you notice the language there? Certainly the global earth wasn't destroyed then....nor the earth literally shaken from its place. That's apocalyptic language used repeatedly throughout the Hebrew literature of the Old Testament to describe God's judgement (Days of the Lord).

Isaiah 24 is another excellent example of that - historically this was when Nebuchadnezzar invaded Israel (587 BC) and carried away the Israelites into captivity. In Matthew Henry's commentary on Isa 24, he writes, " Sin has turned the earth upside down; the earth is become quite different to man, from what it was when God first made it to be his habitation" ~ Isaiah 24 Bible Commentary - Matthew Henry (concise)

Isaiah 24:4-23 ~
4The earth mourns and withers;

the world languishes and fades;

the exalted of the earth waste away.5The earth is defiled by its people;

they have transgressed the laws;

they have overstepped the decrees

and broken the everlasting covenant.6Therefore a curse has consumed the earth,

and its inhabitants must bear the guilt;

the earth’s dwellers have been burned,

and only a few survive.7The new wine dries up, the vine withers.

All the merrymakers now groan.8The joyful tambourines have ceased;

the noise of revelers has stopped;

the joyful harp is silent.9They no longer sing and drink wine;

strong drink is bitter to those who consume it.10The city of chaos is shattered;

every house is closed to entry.11In the streets they cry out for wine.

All joy turns to gloom;

rejoicing is exiled from the land.12The city is left in ruins;

its gate is reduced to rubble.13So will it be on the earth

and among the nations,

like a harvested olive tree,

like a gleaning after a grape harvest.14They raise their voices, they shout for joy;

from the westa they proclaim the majesty of the LORD.15Therefore glorify the LORD in the east.

Extol the name of the LORD, the God of Israel

in the islandsb of the sea.16From the ends of the earth we hear singing:

“Glory to the Righteous One.”

But I said, “I am wasting away! I am wasting away!

Woe is me.”

The treacherous betray;

the treacherous deal in treachery.17Terror and pit and snare await you,

O dwellers of the earth.18Whoever flees the sound of terror

will fall into a pit,

and whoever climbs from the pit

will be caught in a trap.

For the windows of heaven are open,

and the foundations of the earth are shaken.19The earth is utterly broken apart,

the earth is split open,

the earth is shaken violently.20The earth staggers like a drunkard

and sways like a shack.

Earth’s rebellion weighs it down,

and it falls, never to rise again.21In that day the LORD will punish

the host of heaven above

and the kings of the earth below.22They will be gathered together

like prisoners in a pit.

They will be confined to a dungeon

and punished after many days.

23The moon will be confounded

and the sun will be ashamed;

for the LORD of Hosts will reign

on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,

and before His elders with great glory.​

Isaiah 24:1-7 tells us: “Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merry hearted do sigh.”

Isaiah 24:17-23 declares: “Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.”

This is the climactic second coming!

 

[DavidPT]

Isaiah 24 is another excellent example of that - historically this was when Nebuchadnezzar invaded Israel (587 BC) and carried away the Israelites into captivity. In Matthew Henry's commentary on Isa 24, he writes, " Sin has turned the earth upside down; the earth is become quite different to man, from what it was when God first made it to be his habitation" ~ Isaiah 24 Bible Commentary - Matthew Henry (concise)

The ruin of the Redeemer's enemies must make way for his kingdom, and then the Sun of Righteousness will appear in full glory. Happy are those who take warning by the sentence against others; every impenitent sinner will sink under his transgression, and rise no more, while believers enjoy everlasting bliss.

Isaiah 24 Bible Commentary - Matthew Henry (concise)

From that same Commentary you posted, can you explain how MH was not applying this part to the eternal age? If he was applying this to this present earth age, past or future, how can there be everlasting bliss in an age that is not even everlasting to begin with?

 

[DavidPT]

Isaiah 24:1-7 tells us: “Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merry hearted do sigh.”

Isaiah 24:17-23 declares: “Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.”

This is the climactic second coming!

Of course it is the climatic 2nd coming. Which BTW destroys Amil. Meaning this part----they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited

Amil can't explain---and after many days shall they be visited--post the 2nd coming. Clearly that is when it would have to be meaning.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Uh, no. I was applying it to 539 BC - when the Medes destroyed Babylon (that is the context I understand Isaiah 13 to be). Do you notice the language there? Certainly the global earth wasn't destroyed then....nor the earth literally shaken from its place. That's apocalyptic language used repeatedly throughout the Hebrew literature of the Old Testament to describe God's judgement (Days of the Lord).

Isaiah 24 is another excellent example of that - historically this was when Nebuchadnezzar invaded Israel (587 BC) and carried away the Israelites into captivity. In Matthew Henry's commentary on Isa 24, he writes, " Sin has turned the earth upside down; the earth is become quite different to man, from what it was when God first made it to be his habitation" ~ Isaiah 24 Bible Commentary - Matthew Henry (concise)

Isaiah 24:4-23 ~
4The earth mourns and withers;

the world languishes and fades;

the exalted of the earth waste away.5The earth is defiled by its people;

they have transgressed the laws;

they have overstepped the decrees

and broken the everlasting covenant.6Therefore a curse has consumed the earth,

and its inhabitants must bear the guilt;

the earth’s dwellers have been burned,

and only a few survive.7The new wine dries up, the vine withers.

All the merrymakers now groan.8The joyful tambourines have ceased;

the noise of revelers has stopped;

the joyful harp is silent.9They no longer sing and drink wine;

strong drink is bitter to those who consume it.10The city of chaos is shattered;

every house is closed to entry.11In the streets they cry out for wine.

All joy turns to gloom;

rejoicing is exiled from the land.12The city is left in ruins;

its gate is reduced to rubble.13So will it be on the earth

and among the nations,

like a harvested olive tree,

like a gleaning after a grape harvest.14They raise their voices, they shout for joy;

from the westa they proclaim the majesty of the LORD.15Therefore glorify the LORD in the east.

Extol the name of the LORD, the God of Israel

in the islandsb of the sea.16From the ends of the earth we hear singing:

“Glory to the Righteous One.”

But I said, “I am wasting away! I am wasting away!

Woe is me.”

The treacherous betray;

the treacherous deal in treachery.17Terror and pit and snare await you,

O dwellers of the earth.18Whoever flees the sound of terror

will fall into a pit,

and whoever climbs from the pit

will be caught in a trap.

For the windows of heaven are open,

and the foundations of the earth are shaken.19The earth is utterly broken apart,

the earth is split open,

the earth is shaken violently.20The earth staggers like a drunkard

and sways like a shack.

Earth’s rebellion weighs it down,

and it falls, never to rise again.21In that day the LORD will punish

the host of heaven above

and the kings of the earth below.22They will be gathered together

like prisoners in a pit.

They will be confined to a dungeon

and punished after many days.

23The moon will be confounded

and the sun will be ashamed;

for the LORD of Hosts will reign

on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,

and before His elders with great glory.​

Why do Partial Preterists have to always hide behind the writings of others??? Can they not expound the Word of God for themselves. Your previous repeated plagiarism was a telling indictment on the weakness of your position.

 

[mkgal1]

Isaiah 13 is speaking about the second coming.

Maybe there's a possibility that you've become obsessed with the Second Coming (His return) and have, erroneously, applied most Scripture to that (when, instead, there were other points in history related to the Israelites)?

Isaiah 13:17 ~ Behold, I will stir up against them the Medes, who have no regard for silver and no desire for gold.......

Quoting R.C. Sproul (even though I know your assumptions and conclusions you draw on that. God has revealed His Truth to the Church - not to sole individuals) I've yet to find ANY commentator agreeing with you that Isaiah 13 is about Jesus' Second Coming in the future. This is PAST......539 BC, to be more specific:

R. C. Sproul wrote: Yet these astronomical events do not have to be interpreted in this manner. As commentators have noted, the Old Testament prophets often speak of the overthrow of human kingdoms and cataclysmic events in history using metaphors such as the falling of stars from the sky and the darkening of the heavens. For example, Isaiah 13 uses astronomical imagery (v. 10) to predict Babylon’s fall to the Medes (v. 17), who were later conquered by the Persians. These were no small events, it was a crisis of great proportions when one empire fell to another in the ancient world. One’s whole way of life might change: a new religion might be imposed on the conquered nation; the tax system would be different; no one knew how the new empire would treat its new citizens. The changing of empires was epoch-making; consequently, it might feel as if the very universe itself was out of whack at such times, and the people living in these circumstances used vivid images, like those in Isaiah, to convey this reality. Apparently, Jesus in Matthew 24:29–31 is using this very imagery to depict Jerusalem’s fall. ~ The Judgment of Jerusalem​

 

[sovereigngrace]

Of course it is the climatic 2nd coming. Which BTW destroys Amil. Meaning this part----they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited

Amil can't explain---and after many days shall they be visited--post the 2nd coming. Clearly that is when it would have to be meaning.

What are you talking about? What do you mean "destroys Amil"? Quite the opposite!

Isaiah 14:15-18, Isaiah 24:21-22 and Isaiah 66:22-24 all correlate. When Jesus comes the demonic realm is destroyed by being banished to the Lake of Fire. None of these passages make any mention of a future sin-cursed millennial period. That is because they relate to the new heavens and new earth. The wicked and the demons are placed as an eternal reminder to the righteous of the eternal justice of God.

Isaiah 14:15-18: “Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.”

Isaiah 24:21-22: “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.”

Isaiah 66:22-24: “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”

Where is there any mention of any release of Satan and his demons? It is not there. This relates to the new earth, not some future millennium. I am at a loss to see where you think this teaches Premil. Where does it say that Satan will be released 1,000 years after Christ's Coming? Where does it say that devils will be released 1,000 years after Christ's Coming?

 

[keras]

What would be the purpose of a 3rd temple? Why would Israel need it?

It is plainly prophesied; there will be a new Temple.
It will be built by the Lord's people, to the Glory of God and His Shekinah glory will come into it. Ezekiel 43:1-4 It will be the focus of worship and offerings to God will be made in it. Isaiah 56:7
But in the last days it will be defiled by a man empowered by Satan, Revelation 13:2, 2 Thess 2:4

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. Also, it has absolutely nothing to do with the end of time. It rather describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Many have all been infected with the Scofield interpretation of Scripture instead of the Holy Spirit’s interpretation of the same. I can only conclude that the future location of Jacob’s trouble is a Pretrib invention, misconception and/or misinterpretation.

I put it to you: it is you that that is biased and careless in your interpretation of prophecy.

The over 100 prophesies that tell of a forthcoming terrible Day sent by the Lord to destroy His enemies have not happened yet.
I reject pre-trib and Scofield. But I do know what happened in history and I can see that much Bible prophecy awaits fulfilment. Prophesies that describe cosmic events and worldwide disaster, have not yet occurred, but we can see that they could in todays situation.

 

[mkgal1]

Why do Partial Preterists have to always hide behind the writings of others??? Can they not expound the Word of God for themselves. Your previous repeated plagiarism was a telling indictment on the weakness of your position.

You can call it whatever you like, but I'm not a history scholar (nor was I alive to witness the events that covered biblical history) - so I DO rely on the work of others that have devoted their lives to this work.

Care to address the actual content?

 

[mkgal1]

From that same Commentary you posted, can you explain how MH was not applying this part to the eternal age? If he was applying this to this present earth age, past or future, how can there be everlasting bliss in an age that is not even everlasting to begin with?

I was really only referring to this specific quote of Matthew Henry's in that commentary, because he used language that we use today ("my world was shattered when...." or "my world was shaken...." or "that was earth-shattering news" etc) that was similar to the ancient Hebrew's apocalyptic language when he wrote:

" Sin has turned the earth upside down; the earth is become quite different to man, from what it was when God first made it to be his habitation"​