Why Christians should reject Partial Preterism

[Brian Mcnamee]

Can I remind you, after they came back from Babylon and took their land, as was promised by multiple prophets, their Messiah came and brought the new covenant and everlasting peace for those who would embrace Him. Faithful Israel embraced him and became the New Testament Church? We have an integrated into that faithful Israel.

You have dodged every contradiction I have pointed out and skipped to your conclusion which is the church and Israel are now one. I have addressed your Jer 30 question and you ignore all of the Jer 31 problems your view holds. i showed you many other places where and when the dead bodies will be there and the rebuilding of Jerusalem will take place and Israel will believe in Jesus. I showed you what is accomplished in Isaiah 61 and how Luke 1 is also fulfilled in the future. You avoid Jer 31 and the clear statements and context and raise the white flag when pressed. The fact is the Temple Institute has replicated everything for hte 3rd temple that will be the stage for the man of sin to be revealed in and the abomination of desolation to take place in. Isaiah 61 the acceptable year of the LORD is over soon and the day of vegeance of God takes place. Did you see how Zion central the day of vengeance is and that is when Israel is saved. I can take all those passages and they fit with a future fulfillment and I still have us under the new covenant and there is a spiritual Israel too. Eat the chicken and spit out the bones.

 

[DavidPT]

What are you talking about? What do you mean "destroys Amil"? Quite the opposite!

Isaiah 14:15-18, Isaiah 24:21-22 and Isaiah 66:22-24 all correlate. When Jesus comes the demonic realm is destroyed by being banished to the Lake of Fire. None of these passages make any mention of a future sin-cursed millennial period. That is because they relate to the new heavens and new earth. The wicked and the demons are placed as an eternal reminder to the righteous of the eternal justice of God.

Isaiah 14:15-18: “Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.”

Isaiah 24:21-22: “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.”

Isaiah 66:22-24: “For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”

Where is there any mention of any release of Satan and his demons? It is not there. This relates to the new earth, not some future millennium. I am at a loss to see where you think this teaches Premil. Where does it say that Satan will be released 1,000 years after Christ's Coming? Where does it say that devils will be released 1,000 years after Christ's Coming?

I agree those passages you provided correlate, to some degree anyway. But I don't agree, in case this is your position, that being visited after many days is referring to the following in Isaiah 66---and they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me.

For one, this is talking about men, not satan and his demons. And for another, visited, in this context seems to be meaning like in a judgmental sense.

Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.


If verse 21 is basically referring to Revelation 19:18-21, that tells us that the timing is the 2nd coming. That places the events of verse 22 above as post the 2nd coming. What then explains---And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited---if not Revelation chapter 20?

 

[sovereigngrace]

You can call it whatever you like, but I'm not a history scholar (nor was I alive to witness the events that covered biblical history) - so I DO rely on the work of others that have devoted their lives to this work.

Care to address the actual content?

I did! Would you care to answer the many questions I have previously submitted on this thread that you've avoided?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I agree those passages you provided correlate, to some degree anyway. But I don't agree, in case this is your position, that being visited after many days is referring to the following in Isaiah 66---and they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me.

For one, this is talking about men, not satan and his demons. And for another, visited, in this context seems to be meaning like in a judgmental sense.

Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.


If verse 21 is basically referring to Revelation 19:18-21, that tells us that the timing is the 2nd coming. That places the events of verse 22 above as post the 2nd coming. What then explains---And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited---if not Revelation chapter 20?

It is talking about the lake of fire in eternity!!!

 

[DavidPT]

It is talking about the lake of fire in eternity!!!

As far as I can tell, in Revelation 20, the lake of fire is never described as a prison, but that the bottomless pit is. The BP and LOF are obviously not the same thing. In Revelation 20 it indicates satan is eventually loosed from his prison, meaning the same prison he was cast into at the beginning of that chapter.

In Isaiah 24:22, it also makes mention of a prison and a pit, both of which that are also mentioned in Revelation 20. In Isaiah 24:22 in indicates 'they' shall be gathered together. How can 'they' not include the host of the high ones that are on high, apparently meaning satan and his demons? But if they are cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming like you seem to believe, and that Revelation 20 never describes the LOF as a prison or a pit, why then is Isaiah 24:22 making mention of a prison and a pit in 2nd coming context, when the LOF is not described as that, but that the bottomless pit is?

 

[sovereigngrace]

You have dodged every contradiction I have pointed out and skipped to your conclusion which is the church and Israel are now one. I have addressed your Jer 30 question and you ignore all of the Jer 31 problems your view holds. i showed you many other places where and when the dead bodies will be there and the rebuilding of Jerusalem will take place and Israel will believe in Jesus. I showed you what is accomplished in Isaiah 61 and how Luke 1 is also fulfilled in the future. You avoid Jer 31 and the clear statements and context and raise the white flag when pressed. The fact is the Temple Institute has replicated everything for hte 3rd temple that will be the stage for the man of sin to be revealed in and the abomination of desolation to take place in. Isaiah 61 the acceptable year of the LORD is over soon and the day of vegeance of God takes place. Did you see how Zion central the day of vengeance is and that is when Israel is saved. I can take all those passages and they fit with a future fulfillment and I still have us under the new covenant and there is a spiritual Israel too. Eat the chicken and spit out the bones.

I have showed you that the NT forbids your fixation with the restoration with the old covenant.

For what purpose do you believe there will be a millennial temple?

You have not demonstrated that.

 

[sovereigngrace]

As far as I can tell, in Revelation 20, the lake of fire is never described as a prison, but that the bottomless pit is. The BP and LOF are obviously not the same thing. In Revelation 20 it indicates satan is eventually loosed from his prison, meaning the same prison he was cast into at the beginning of that chapter.

In Isaiah 24:22, it also makes mention of a prison and a pit, both of which that are also mentioned in Revelation 20. In Isaiah 24:22 in indicates 'they' shall be gathered together. How can 'they' not include the host of the high ones that are on high, apparently meaning satan and his demons? But if they are cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming like you seem to believe, and that Revelation 20 never describes the LOF as a prison or a pit, why then is Isaiah 24:22 making mention of a prison and a pit in 2nd coming context, when the LOF is not described as that, but that the bottomless pit is?

Scripture uses multiple terms to describe the exact same person or thing. This is common from Gen to Rev. This is avoiding the issue.

 

[DavidPT]

I have showed you that the NT forbids your fixation with the restoration with the old covenant.

For what purpose do you believe there will be a millennial temple?

You have not demonstrated that.

Even though I'm Premil, I at least agree with you about this. Fortunately it is not a requirement in order to be Premil, that one has to agree to this alleged Millennial temple, which I'm assuming is meaning the one in Ezekiel.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It is plainly prophesied; there will be a new Temple.
It will be built by the Lord's people, to the Glory of God and His Shekinah glory will come into it. Ezekiel 43:1-4 It will be the focus of worship and offerings to God will be made in it. Isaiah 56:7
But in the last days it will be defiled by a man empowered by Satan, Revelation 13:2, 2 Thess 2:4

I put it to you: it is you that that is biased and careless in your interpretation of prophecy.

The over 100 prophesies that tell of a forthcoming terrible Day sent by the Lord to destroy His enemies have not happened yet.
I reject pre-trib and Scofield. But I do know what happened in history and I can see that much Bible prophecy awaits fulfilment. Prophesies that describe cosmic events and worldwide disaster, have not yet occurred, but we can see that they could in todays situation.

Where in the New Testament does it teach the rebuilding of the Jewish temple? Where does it talk about the restart of blood sacrifices for sin? Where does it teach the restoration of the old covenant priesthood? Nowhere! And you accuse me of being "biased and careless in [my] interpretation of prophecy???

 

[sovereigngrace]

Even though I'm Premil, I at least agree with you about this. Fortunately it is not a requirement in order to be Premil, that one has to agree to this alleged Millennial temple, which I'm assuming is meaning the one in Ezekiel.

Yes! The New Testament forbids the re-introduction of the old covenant.

 

[DavidPT]

Scripture uses multiple terms to describe the exact same person or thing. This is common from Gen to Rev. This is avoiding the issue.

Give me some examples then and show how it applies in this particular case. Until you at least do that first, your point is not doing much for me.

 

[mkgal1]

I did!

The only response I recall is that you're placing Isa 13 in the future (and just keep repeating that belief) - when v. 17 mentions the Medes (which played a part in the destruction of Babylon almost 600 years before Christ). That's taking the Scripture out of its proper context in order to fit a pre-conceived framework:

Isaiah 13:7 ~ Behold, I will stir up against them the Medes, who have no regard for silver and no desire for gold​

 

[sovereigngrace]

Give me some examples then and show how it applies in this particular case. Until you at least do that first, your point is not doing much for me.

What I'm saying is: your point is moot. I could turn it on you: how many times in Scripture is the bottomless pit called a prison? Once! So your reasoning is self-defeating. People and places are given multiple descriptions. That does not negate the fact that they relate to the same subject matter.

Jesus is called Jesus, Lord, Christ, Savior, Redeemer, Messiah, etc., etc. That does not negate the fact that it is talking about the same person. I could give you countless examples. I just don't have the time.

 

[keras]

Where in the New Testament does it teach the rebuilding of the Jewish temple? Where does it talk about the restart of blood sacrifices for sin? Where does it teach the restoration of the old covenant priesthood? Nowhere! And you accuse me of being "biased and careless in [my] interpretation of prophecy???

Nowhere; SG? That's careless of you;
The new Temple is clearly stated in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and in Revelation 11:1.
It is prophesied and described many times in the OT and Jesus will reign from it during the Millennium.
Christians will be the priests in it. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:10

 

[sovereigngrace]

The only response I recall is that you're placing Isa 13 in the future (and just keep repeating that belief) - when v. 17 mentions the Medes (which played a part in the destruction of Babylon almost 600 years before Christ). That's taking the Scripture out of its proper context in order to fit a pre-conceived framework:

Isaiah 13:7 ~ Behold, I will stir up against them the Medes, who have no regard for silver and no desire for gold​

Now will you address my previous questions?

 

[mkgal1]

Now will you address my previous questions?

You're going to have to remind me which specific questions you're referring to. If they are the heavily loaded questions - then, no. I'm done playing that game.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Nowhere; SG? That's careless of you;
The new Temple is clearly stated in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and in Revelation 11:1.
It is prophesied and described many times in the OT and Jesus will reign from it during the Millennium.
Christians will be the priests in it. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:10

There is only one temple in the New Testament. The temple is Christ and His body. There is no need for a physical temple since Calvary and the ripping of the curtain in 2. Is the cross not enough for you? Why do you need others sin offerings for 1000 years after the coming of Christ? It doesn't make sense. It is wrong. It is unbiblical.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You're going to have to remind me which specific questions you're referring to. If they are the heavily loaded questions - then, no. I'm done playing that game.

OK then, please answer these simple questions:

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13:24-30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, (1) Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but (2) gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 37-43 continues, “He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (or aion or age); and the reapers are the angels. (1) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (or aion or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (2) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

John 11:21-27 records: “Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Christ had previously taught in John 6:39-44, 54, where He said, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day …No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day ... Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Christ tells us in John 12:48, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Romans 8:19-23: “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

2 Peter 3:10-13 couldn't be clearer: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 tells us: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

Revelation 22:3 tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Is this past or future? What event does this refer to?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Nowhere; SG? That's careless of you;
The new Temple is clearly stated in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and in Revelation 11:1.
It is prophesied and described many times in the OT and Jesus will reign from it during the Millennium.
Christians will be the priests in it. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:10

Where in Revelation 20 does it teach the re-introduction of animal sacrifices in a supposed future millennial kingdom?

Where elsewhere in the New Testament (the fuller revelation) does it teach the re-introduction of animal sacrifices in a supposed future millennial kingdom?

Where in Revelation 20 does it teach the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem in a supposed future millennial kingdom?

Where elsewhere in the New Testament (the fuller revelation) does it teach the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem in a supposed future millennial kingdom?

Where in Revelation 20 does it teach the restoration of the old covenant priests in a supposed future millennial kingdom?

Where elsewhere in the New Testament (the fuller revelation) does it teach the restoration of the old covenant priests in a supposed future millennial kingdom?

Why do Premils insist on promoting the restoration of a such useless, pointless, worthless, meaningless and redundant sin offerings?

 

[mkgal1]

OK then, please answer these simple questions:

There's no need for a repeat of that. There were plenty of answers in this other thread already: When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

The problem is, for one, this is YOUR framework......loaded with your presumptions about what the answers would mean. I don't view things in black and white with clear lines of distinction. There's a thread of God's grace running all throughout the Bible - there's ONE story of God's people being told and His desire to restore humanity through Christ. There are overlaps and, at the same time, marked events that "shook the worlds" and reigns of nations into something new - and then it started all over again. Things of God don't typically fit neatly into a list of 100 questions. There's depth......much more than can be expressed in questions asking "was this past or future....?" (not allowing for explanations, discussion, or difference of opinions).