Why Christian nations are not acting Christian

[Kettriken]

Bush wasn't voted into office the first time for a war for oil. He was voted in because we'd had enough of Clinton and his people in the 90's,

Just to be clear, for those who weren't there, Bush wasn't voted in at all. It's possible that he could have legitimately won the electoral college, but thanks to the supreme court at the time, we'll never know. The majority of the populace certainly didn't vote for him, by a margin of over half a million people.

 

[Martinius]

I’m terrified by this conclusion… Really… I feel awful thinking about it….

So does it mean true Christians are few and far between? Like a rarity? And millions upon millions are anything but? Not just in modern history, but throughout 2000 years

Very dark scenario…

Not quite that long. Maybe only 1700 or 1800 years. The turning point was likely Constantine and the Roman Empire, which made Christianity into a state sponsored religion, and amalgamated the two and in a fairly short time made the church a temporal power.

Another poster mentioned the "Christian worldview". There has never been such a thing, since the majority of people in the world have not been members of a Christian faith. During the era of exploration, conquest and missions many people were "converted" via baptism. It seemed to be a production line process, trying to save souls and add numbers to church membership. But that did not make them Christians.

The other problem with the idea of a "Christian worldview" is that there has been more animosity than agreement among the various Christian denominations, and within those denominations. And rather than serve God through following Jesus in the Gospels, they turn it around, so that Jesus and the Gospels serve their beliefs and purposes. Big example: the tele-evangelists who build secular empires and massive wealth by fleecing those they entrap in their scams.

We can't depend on or look to anyone but God, and within ourselves, for the answers. It is what WE do individually that determines the validity of our own Christianity, not what a church tells us or what Sacraments we receive. I would worry more about myself and how I am doing in living my Christian faith, rather than about the entire world, or any part of it. It starts with me, and you.

Oh yes, Merry Christmas to all.

 

[James_Lai]

Just to be clear, for those who weren't there, Bush wasn't voted in at all. It's possible that he could have legitimately won the electoral college, but thanks to the supreme court at the time, we'll never know. The majority of the populace certainly didn't vote for him, by a margin of over half a million people.

Yes, but my point was they supported such policies represented by Mr G W Bush

 

[bèlla]

There’s a difference between liking the idea of a thing — who I am and what I think — and what I’ve done. Distinguishing between the two is an integral part of discernment.

Repetition is a common tool for disarming as is group think. Both rely on assumptions and human nature. We believe what we hear and readily accept it without validation. We repeat it and the idea becomes ingrained and spreads.

When in doubt look for the buts and contradictions. Listen for the omission of action and application. There’s always a smoking gun.

The bible is the best selling book. But most Christians have never read it all. It’s the manual for their beliefs but they’re oblivious to its contents. They’re more conversant with cell phones and the Internet.

Don’t ignore that. If you want to know what matters to a man. What he really values. Look at his investments. See where his time is spent and what occupies his mind.

When in doubt plot it on a pie. Where do the slices go? What are his priorities? What is he neglecting? This is the principle behind the concept Gladwell addressed.

You develop proficiency where you marinate and bear witness in your behavior. It always comes out. Spend an hour a day on an instrument and you’ll become more adept. Do the same with God and you’ll have an equitable result.

You can’t treat Him like a porcelain doll and expect the same. On display and rarely handled. You don’t know Him and its obvious.

~bella

 

[eleos1954]

Even before the birth of the nation there was extermination of native populations, warring for land and dominance, slavery etc

Yes .... true .. and that's the point ... the evil nature of mankind has been going on globally since the fall of mankind. So why "point the finger" at America?

Romans 2:1

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on another. For on whatever grounds you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

 

[trophy33]

Hello.
In the non-Christian non-Western world people love developed science, economics etc of the West. However, they see the Christian West as an epitome of evil on the global scene…. Wars, occupations, colonizations, robbing the nations, exploitation, slavery, opium trade, genocide, etc

There’s a disconnect between Christian teaching and actions of governments for many centuries up until today.

Why do you think there’s such stark contrast?

Everyone sees what he wants to see. If you will look for the good that came from Christian countries to the rest of the world, you will find it.

If you will look for evil that came from Christian countries, you will find it too.

Of course, countries that are in political enmity to the West will emphasize the bad things.

 

[James_Lai]

Everyone sees what he wants to see. If you will look for the good that came from Christian countries to the rest of the world, you will find it.

If you will look for evil that came from Christian countries, you will find it too.

Of course, countries that are in political enmity to the West will emphasize the bad things.

True, but this way we could dismiss absolutely anything. It’s like answering a question why a criminal commited his acts by saying, he was also a good gardener!

 

[trophy33]

True, but this way we could dismiss absolutely anything. It’s like answering a question why a criminal commited his acts by saying, he was also a good gardener!

A country is not a single individual, but a huge mass of people and of complex politics, wars, revolutions, of a long history going centuries back. Its not surprising that both good and evil can be found.

It applies to any country - christian, muslim, atheist, buddhist, with primitive religions etc.

One could make a case that Christian countries were quite ethical compared to others or compared to before they became Christian. For example, compare Rome before and after Christianity.

 

[angelsaroundme]

"The American taxpayer has been generous to foreign countries. Between the years 2013 and 2018, nearly $300 billion in U.S. taxpayer money flowed as 'aid' to countries outside the United States."

"Each year, the U.S. spent about $47 billion. Half the aid went to Africa and the Middle East in FY2018, the latest year available for these statistics." - Forbes

"To get a sense of the often-invisible ways in which persons of faith help others, consider giving to the poorest of the poor overseas. The most conspicuous philanthropy done in this area is carried out by the Gates Foundation. Gates contributions in Africa and other low-income countries are the signature effort of the world’s largest charitable foundation, and have had heroic effects, in areas ranging from malaria protection to HIV control to eradicating polio."

"With the marvelous Gates generosity in mind, now absorb this: members of U.S. churches and synagogues send four and a half times as much money overseas to needy people every year as the Gates Foundation does! Much of this religious charity is applied in the hardest places, with high efficiency and low overhead, by Christians who 'go the last mile' into rural, extremely poor, or dangerous areas where governments and international bureaucracies have no effective reach. (See 'Modern Missionaries' in the Spring 2018 issue of Philanthropy.)" - Philanthropy Roundtable

 

[Torah Keeper]

There are plenty of countries where the majority of the population are Christians, yet the government, laws, schools, and culture is overwhelmingly non-Christian. It's a case of the 1% ruling the 99%. And the people think their votes actually do something. In a true democracy the majority will always win.

For a nation to be a truly Christian nation, it must be a theocracy. Only Vatican City comes closest, although it isn't really a nation but a semi-independent city.

Even if a country is 99% Christian, it doesn't mean they will vote for a new theocratic government. Part of the problem is Christians are broken into too many denominations, each thinking they are the best. It's like lots of political parties. It's a mess.

 

[Sketcher]

Just to be clear, for those who weren't there, Bush wasn't voted in at all. It's possible that he could have legitimately won the electoral college, but thanks to the supreme court at the time, we'll never know. The majority of the populace certainly didn't vote for him, by a margin of over half a million people.

He won the electoral vote, therefore he was voted in. It was so close, the Supreme Court had to settle the matter. When the Democrats failed to make their case to take the election, they turned around and claimed that Bush stole it. They couldn't steal it, so they chose to lie and say the other side did.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Interesting explanation, thank you

So you’re saying religion isn’t adequate for real life. And what religion prescribes is not implemented? Two aspects

Religion is just a set of rules people follow, the covenant before Jesus was all about rules that were not followed.

What's new about the present covenant is the spiritual transformation and the resulting ongoing relationship with God.

A good quote that emphasizes relationships is James 1:27 - "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

 

[Kettriken]

He won the electoral vote, therefore he was voted in. It was so close, the Supreme Court had to settle the matter. When the Democrats failed to make their case to take the election, they turned around and claimed that Bush stole it. They couldn't steal it, so they chose to lie and say the other side did.

He received the electoral votes, therefore he was elected, based on how the courts ruled. He was not voted in by the majority of the populace, but note, I never said he stole the presidency. If anything the courts did that. Thanks to them we will never know if the recount would have shown that Gore received more votes in a few critical counties. Claiming that Democrats tried to steal the election is a false witness, unless you have evidence that the rest of us are not privy to.

I would say this is a distraction from the main theme of this thread, but it is actually pretty symptomatic of how Christians in a supposedly Christian nation end up not acting as such. (Not saying you, Sketcher, specifically, just generally how we get in these pickles through investment in worldly politics.)

 

[Sketcher]

He received the electoral votes, therefore he was elected, based on how the courts ruled. He was not voted in by the majority of the populace, but note, I never said he stole the presidency. If anything the courts did that. Thanks to them we will never know if the recount would have shown that Gore received more votes in a few critical counties. Claiming that Democrats tried to steal the election is a false witness, unless you have evidence that the rest of us are not privy to.

I heard Democrats on the news and in the media falsely claim that Bush stole it. They weren't shy about it either. And the Court was right to call them out on their recount shenanigans.

I would say this is a distraction from the main theme of this thread

I agree.

 

[Kettriken]

I heard Democrats on the news and in the media falsely claim that Bush stole it. They weren't shy about it either. And the Court was right to call them out on their recount shenanigans.

I can hear Democrats and Republicans on television say all manner of things, if I wish to subject myself to it. However, my statement was about evidence that Democrats had tried to steal the 2000 election, as you claimed. When a local election that is won by 537 votes sways a national election, we should be quite sure the count is correct, particularly when the rest of the country votes for the other guy. Asking for a recount, as the Democrats in that situation did, hardly counts as shenanigans.

 

[Sketcher]

I can hear Democrats and Republicans on television say all manner of things, if I wish to subject myself to it. However, my statement was about evidence that Democrats had tried to steal the 2000 election, as you claimed. When a local election that is won by 537 votes sways a national election, we should be quite sure the count is correct, particularly when the rest of the country votes for the other guy. Asking for a recount, as the Democrats in that situation did, hardly counts as shenanigans.

But having inconsistent standards for the recounts certainly does.

 

[Kettriken]

But having inconsistent standards for the recounts certainly does.

Such as...?

 

[Sketcher]

Such as...?

Such as those that came to the attention of the Supreme Court in that case.

 

[Kettriken]

Such as those that came to the attention of the Supreme Court in that case.

By all means, enlighten us.

Keep in mind, the entire premise of this was that Bush was voted in because people had enough of Clinton, etc. which based on the numbers was not true. Bush was elected on a fluke, no matter which way you cut it. Just like Trump.

 

[Sketcher]

By all means, enlighten us.

The case can be looked up, I don't care to debate it here anymore.

Keep in mind, the entire premise of this was that Bush was voted in because people had enough of Clinton, etc. which based on the numbers was not true. Bush was elected on a fluke, no matter which way you cut it. Just like Trump.

Not flukes, there were enough people who voted for them to get them elected according to the system we have, and those who voted for them had their reasons.