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Why Christian nations are not acting Christian

BigV

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Did Christ renounce all that he had? How about his disciples? Did he renounce them? Wouldn't "all" necessarily include them? How about his robe? Doesn't it fall under the universal category of "all," too?

these are good questions, and we have some supposed history of the Christian church, that was in fact selling all possessions and having all things in common (see Acts 4). Now, there’s an issue with Jesus’s teachings, because there is no central authority on how literal one should interpret them. But when it comes to communism, we find that teachings of Jesus work in unison. Where else would you expect to ask and receive if not in a commune? Why the “woe” to the well fed and to the rich if those are just hyperbole? Btw, even IF Luke 14:33 is figurative, it still should mean that you should have as few possessions as possible. Jesus was also teaching against resisting evil, which is tough to do for someone who wants to protect their family especially if they are living in a rough part of the world. Amazing how Jesus blew the chance to make his message clear, instead, his followers must reason on how they can live reasonably while following u reasonable (if taken literally) teachings.
 
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BigV

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This, obviously, rests upon a glaring category error. People may be murderers, genocidal killers of one another, but God, as the Creator and Sustainer of all life, has a unique corresponding prerogative to be the Taker of life, as well. No human stands in this category with God. When God ends a person's temporal existence, then, He isn't ever guilty of murder; He merely exercises His divine prerogative as Creator and Sovereign over all things.

so, the communist killers were only evil because they tortured and killed people based on their own agenda. If God was ordering them to do exact same things, they would have been holy people. Do I understand you correctly?
 
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aiki

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these are good questions, and we have some supposed history of the Christian church, that was in fact selling all possessions and having all things in common (see Acts 4).

This isn't, in fact, what Acts 4:32-35 describes. It doesn't say all Christians everywhere sold all they had and had all things in common forever afterward. As other places in Acts indicate, Christians had their own homes and businesses and contributed only some of what they had in support of their fellow believers.

Now, there’s an issue with Jesus’s teachings, because there is no central authority on how literal one should interpret them.

There are the Gospels themselves, their historical/cultural context, their distinct themes, the immediate context in which the teachings of Jesus are given, providing qualification and boundary to interpretation, and then the wider context of all of the Bible adding to this clarifying, confining effect.

There was, for a time, a central controlling "authority" in Christendom, establishing for all the "correct" interpretation of Christ's teachings, and that authority abused its control mightily, adding to the word of God and contorting it as it suited the authority to do so, sequestering the Bible from public view, even, and murdering those who copied and distributed the Bible to the laity. I think this demonstrates pretty well why a "central interpreting authority" is a very bad idea.

But when it comes to communism, we find that teachings of Jesus work in unison.

I don't see that at all. Marxist communism, at any rate, is totally opposed to religion generally and to Christianity in particular. It's tenets are profoundly at odds with a Christian worldview, asserting that God is merely a human fabrication, the "opiate of the masses," serving ultimately to oppress and suppress the proletariat.

Where else would you expect to ask and receive if not in a commune? Why the “woe” to the well fed and to the rich if those are just hyperbole?

The indigent in my city ask and receive at the many Christian charities established for just such a purpose, serving all who come in need. A commune is quite unnecessary.

What woe are you thinking of, exactly?

Btw, even IF Luke 14:33 is figurative, it still should mean that you should have as few possessions as possible.

??? Oh, how so?

Amazing how Jesus blew the chance to make his message clear, instead, his followers must reason on how they can live reasonably while following u reasonable (if taken literally) teachings.

I don't think Jesus was at all unclear. Applying a proper hermeneutic to interpretation, his meaning is quite apparent.

so, the communist killers were only evil because they tortured and killed people based on their own agenda. If God was ordering them to do exact same things, they would have been holy people. Do I understand you correctly?

Do humans stand in the same category as God? No. His "agenda" expresses prerogatives no human possesses.

Can God use human agents to carry out His will? Obviously, yes. The Bible is replete with examples of this very thing.

Would God order "communist killers" to do the "exact same things" they would ordinarily do apart from Him? Obviously not. God does not take the life He's given for the reasons a "communist killer" would. Does God have the right to enact His will through human agencies? Of course.
 
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BigV

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This isn't, in fact, what Acts 4:32-35 describes. It doesn't say all Christians everywhere sold all they had and had all things in common forever afterward. As other places in Acts indicate, Christians had their own homes and businesses and contributed only some of what they had in support of their fellow believers.
Where did the Christians in Acts 4 get the idea to sell all possessions? If this isn’t what Jesus taught in Luke 14:33 and Luke 12:33?
There was, for a time, a central controlling "authority" in Christendom, establishing for all the "correct" interpretation of Christ's teachings, and that authority abused its control mightily, adding to the word of God and contorting it as it suited the authority to do so, sequestering the Bible from public view, even, and murdering those who copied and distributed the Bible to the laity. I think this demonstrates pretty well why a "central interpreting authority" is a very bad idea.
How is “Everyman for themselves” interpretation even better? Besides, most Christians today are reliant on the Catholic authority structure, and don’t typically question the 66 books of the Bible. However, who’s to say all of these books are the word of God? There’s a guy on TikTok, named Christopher Enoch, who’s preaching that Paul perverted the Bible. But this guy is not an atheist, but a Christian who believes that Jesus taught salvation through obedience to the law. If I understood him correctly. Who’s to say that is not true Christianity? On the other spectrum, there are gay Christians, practicing homosexuals, who believe that Jesus was never against homosexuality and those verses that seem to teach against it, were applicable to different people in a different time and place. Sort of like Luke 14:33 is not really relevant today.
I could actually take Matthew 25, and come up with a theology that would not require faith to be saved. After all, the sheep and the goats were judged by works. Belief wasn’t even mentioned there.

I don't see that at all. Marxist communism, at any rate, is totally opposed to religion generally and to Christianity in particular. It's tenets are profoundly at odds with a Christian worldview, asserting that God is merely a human fabrication, the "opiate of the masses," serving ultimately to oppress and suppress the proletariat.

Marx came much later. First Century Communists believed in God.


I don't think Jesus was at all unclear. Applying a proper hermeneutic to interpretation, his meaning is quite apparent

I disagree. Jesus taught that his disciples were to make disciples by teaching them to observe everything he taught them, which would include teachings on giving up possessions. Jesus was actually pretty clear on this. One rich young ruler was explicitly told that if he wanted to enter life, he had to sell everything and give to the poor. Luke 14:33 clearly applied to the disciples and, by extension, to their disciples. If Jesus didn’t want his followers to give up any of their possessions, why did he never say so? And why did he say the opposite, on many occasions?


Do humans stand in the same category as God? No. His "agenda" expresses prerogatives no human possesses

humans are in a different category. Sure. My question was different. If God ordered that Stalin exterminate 60 million people because of their sin, which could be disobedience to authority and to Gods law, etc, he would have been a saint for following through on that order, yes?
 
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aiki

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Where did the Christians in Acts 4 get the idea to sell all possessions?

There is no verse that says they sold all of their possessions. Acts 4:32 explains the motivation for the sharing of material goods among Christians: They believed the Gospel, were bound in heart to one another, and so agreed to have everything in common. No one had commanded them to do so, but, I suspect, moved toward each other by the Spirit dwelling in each of them, they decided to live in a fully communal way.

Do you know what is never stated in this passage? The command to all believers to do likewise. All we have in Acts 4:32-34 is a description of events, not a prescription for Christian conduct. The passage says only what new believers did, not that all believers, in all times and places, MUST do the same. Taking a description of an event in Scripture and attempting to make it prescriptive is called the Is-Ought Fallacy. There are all sorts of things described in Scripture that no Christian should ever do. It is important, then, not take a mere description of something in the Bible and declare it prescriptive when no explicit prescription actually exists.

How is “Everyman for themselves” interpretation even better?

This a false dichotomy. It isn't centralized interpretive authority or every man for him/herself. There are all sorts of hermeneutic rules and principles, widely recognized among Bible scholars, by which a proper interpretation of Scripture is secured. Basic rules of logic and principles of reason also come into play in understanding the Bible. So, the alternative to centralized interpretive authority isn't interpretive chaos, every person just making up their own ideas about the Bible is post-modern frenzy, but a well-reasoned, careful scrutiny of the text and attendant cultural, literary and historical features by which a Christian may understand God's word.

Besides, most Christians today are reliant on the Catholic authority structure, and don’t typically question the 66 books of the Bible. However, who’s to say all of these books are the word of God?

The canon of the New Testament was formally-acknowledged, not selected, in the process that established the official canon of the New Testament. The Church community through a natural consensus of use had a long-adopted canon already in place by the time any council convened upon the matter. In AD 367 Athanasius produced a list of the 27 books of the New Testament and was quickly followed by Jerome and Augustine. At the councils of Hippo Regius in 393, and Carthage in 397, the church in the west as a body approved the 27 documents alone as Scripture. It took a bit longer for eastern churches to follow suit, but by around AD 508 the 27 books of the New Testament were universally accepted as canon.

It isn't, then, that any single person or elite group of people has procured the canon of the New Testament for the Church but that the Church very organically selected the canon for itself which was then formally recognized.

There’s a guy on TikTok, named Christopher Enoch, who’s preaching that Paul perverted the Bible. But this guy is not an atheist, but a Christian who believes that Jesus taught salvation through obedience to the law. If I understood him correctly. Who’s to say that is not true Christianity?

2000 years of careful consideration, and argument, and deliberation by the Church defies Enoch's view. His view is not new but has asked and well-answered already centuries ago.

On the other spectrum, there are gay Christians, practicing homosexuals, who believe that Jesus was never against homosexuality and those verses that seem to teach against it, were applicable to different people in a different time and place.

As Jesus himself said, not every one who says "Lord, Lord" is one of his. Homosexuality is explicitly condemned in both Old and New Testaments. And since it fundamental, orthodox Christian belief that God is the Ultimate Author of all of Scripture, it is wrong to say only what we read of Jesus saying in the Gospels is what he taught. As God incarnate, Jesus was the ultimate Author of all of the Bible - including those bits that condemn homosexuality. And when Jesus did speak of sexual unions between human beings, the only union he confirmed was that of a man to a woman for life within marriage. The idea, then, that the Bible allows for homosexuality is quite false.

Occam's Razor seems to me to come into play here, too. In defense of "Christian homosexuality" the multiplication of explanations for such a view, and the incredible convolutions necessary in these explanations, strongly suggest to me a denial of the obvious.

I don't take a post-modern approach to the Bible, assuming the reader has the right to shape the Bible's contents to their subjective preferences and prejudices. For this reason, the "Who says?" question seems rather...childish to me. I believe the Bible offers an objective, authoritative revelation of God and His truth to which the reader must conform, not vice versa, that has been long established and exhaustively defended for two millenia. Against such a history of development, "Who says?" just seems petulant and ignorant.

I could actually take Matthew 25, and come up with a theology that would not require faith to be saved. After all, the sheep and the goats were judged by works. Belief wasn’t even mentioned there.

So? You could take anything, pretty much, and twist it around to say almost anything you'd like. This isn't a testament to the legitimacy of such twisting, however, but to the profound capacity for falsehood and self-deception of which humans are capable.

Marx came much later. First Century Communists believed in God.

You've missed my point, which had nothing to do with where on the timeline of human history Marx appeared. The idea of a "communist," in our common use of the term today, arises almost entirely from Marx's writing. And his writing couldn't be farther in its fundamental worldview from Christianity if Marx had purposely set out to make it so. To apply "communist" to New Testament Christians, then, is a sort of reverse-anachronism, seeing them through the lens of modern ideas totally alien to their time and belief.

I disagree. Jesus taught that his disciples were to make disciples by teaching them to observe everything he taught them, which would include teachings on giving up possessions.

Asked and answered.

Jesus was actually pretty clear on this. One rich young ruler was explicitly told that if he wanted to enter life, he had to sell everything and give to the poor.

Did Jesus then say to everyone else that they had to do likewise? No. He spoke of the difficulty of gaining heaven when rich in material things, but he didn't tell the watching crowds that they all should sell everything they possessed and follow him. In fact, Christ only made material wealth an issue with the Young Ruler because he knew that the young man loved his wealth more than God.

If Jesus didn’t want his followers to give up any of their possessions, why did he never say so? And why did he say the opposite, on many occasions?

Well, now you've shifted the goalposts. Some of Christ's followers - the Twelve, in particular - did have to live as their Master lived, without home or an established means of income. And those things in the lives of any who would follow Jesus had to be placed under their fidelity to, and love of, him. In so doing, for some, it might have been necessary to get rid of certain things - as in the case of the Young Ruler - but not for everyone. Which is why we see many Christians throughout the NT having homes and even businesses and being commanded to work gainfully to supply for their material needs.

If God ordered that Stalin exterminate 60 million people because of their sin, which could be disobedience to authority and to Gods law, etc, he would have been a saint for following through on that order, yes?

What does this question achieve, exactly? Would God make such an order under the circumstances you describe? Nothing I'm aware of within the Christian faith leads me to think so. The only time God issued orders even remotely like what you hypothesize about was within the theocracy He'd established with the Israelites, His Chosen People. The nation was uniquely representative of Jehovah and as such exercising His judgment upon those who'd made Him their enemy by attacking His people and by committing heinous evil. Even then, the Israelites were temperate in their execution of God's commands, the Bible describing their wars upon enemy pagan nations with the hyperbolic language typical of such narratives of the time, giving the impression to modern readers of wholesale genocide when in fact no such thing had occurred.

People who hate God unwittingly act in accord with His will all the time. But they will stand one day before Him to be judged and punished, nonetheless. It is not, then, mere obedience to a divine command that makes one a saint, but who one knows as their Savior and Lord.
 
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Kettriken

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Again, as I have stated in other posts in this thread, the debate over actual numbers of dead under various political/ideological regimes misses my point about the human heart being fundamentally corrupt and reflecting that corruption in and through any society, communist, democratic or theocratic. This number-crunching, is, in my view, a red-herring - at least as far as my greater point is concerned.
There seems to be this idea you and others have that pointing out the evil in a Communist regime somehow gives a pass to the evil in capitalist/democratic ones. I've never stated nor implied such a thing.

I'm glad you stated this before I wasted my time tallying up crusades, inquisitions, burning of heretics, and the numerous colonial genocides. However, if this number crunching is such a red herring why would you make the assertion that communism resulted in far more deaths than above, particularly without evidence? Why would you ask me for evidence that you were bound to then disregard?

Christianity is not supposed to serve as a political system. It's values and ethics may inform political systems, as in the case of the American Constitution, but Christianity is concerned with eternal, spiritual matters ultimately and chiefly, not dictating the foreign policy of a nation, or creating governmental bureaucracies. When Christianity is institutionalized and politicized, it quickly becomes a very ugly, dangerous thing. Think: The Inquisition, or papal indulgences, or the murderous opposition of Roman Catholic clerisy to the printing of the Bible for public use.

Seems like we are in agreement.

Death-dealing evil is not the peculiar domain of Communism - though, I think societies retaining at least some vestige of their Judeo-Christian heritage do not fall into wholesale slaughter and oppression of the citizenry, as has occurred in Communist countries.

I would point to your above statements as evidence of Christian nations oppressing and slaughtering their own people. Perhaps an important caveat is that they first had to put citizens into a separate category such as heretic, Jew, Indian, slave, etc. Then they felt comfortable doing whatever, often in the name of God or the church. Their supposed piety didn't stop them. Likewise, once communist leaders labeled their citizens as enemies of the people or state, they felt justified in doing whatever they felt necessary.
 
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BigV

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Do you know what is never stated in this passage? The command to all believers to do likewise
But Luke 14:33 and Matthew 28 great commission disagrees. Also, God is not a respecter of persons and would not have different rules for different people. Or would he?
Homosexuality is explicitly condemned in both Old and New Testaments.
Well, considering your “interpretation” of Luke 14:33, the condemnation is questionable. How do you know the condemnation applied to ALL homosexual behaviors? For instance, there’s a clear condemnation of the rich by Jesus, but many Christians don’t believe the condemnation applies to them. Why should homosexuals believe the condemnation applies to them?
So? You could take anything, pretty much, and twist it around to say almost anything you'd like. This isn't a testament to the legitimacy of such twisting, however, but to the profound capacity for falsehood and self-deception of which humans are capable.
I’m not twisting anything. In fact, it’s a very ironic accusation coming from someone reading Luke 14:33 and interpreting it as saying one doesn’t need to give up any possessions to be Jesus’s disciples.
Did Jesus then say to everyone else that they had to do likewise? No.
Yes he did. In the great commission, Jesus said the disciples are to teach obedience to everything Jesus commanded them.
Well, now you've shifted the goalposts. Some of Christ's followers - the Twelve, in particular - did have to live as their Master lived, without home or an established means of income.
Well, and Jesus made no exceptions. What applied to the 12 applied to everyone who believes.
What does this question achieve, exactly? Would God make such an order under the circumstances you describe? Nothing I'm aware of within the Christian faith leads me to think so.
I thought God is in the different category and can do what he wants without having to explain himself. Why couldn’t God command extermination of 60 million Soviets?
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Hello.
In the non-Christian non-Western world people love developed science, economics etc of the West. However, they see the Christian West as an epitome of evil on the global scene…. Wars, occupations, colonizations, robbing the nations, exploitation, slavery, opium trade, genocide, etc

There’s a disconnect between Christian teaching and actions of governments for many centuries up until today.

Why do you think there’s such stark contrast?
God did not intend for His earthly institution to be human governments.
Since most human governments are atheistic and separate from the church, we should lay blame at the belief system that they promote.
 
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chilehed

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Hello.
In the non-Christian non-Western world people love developed science, economics etc of the West. However, they see the Christian West as an epitome of evil on the global scene…. Wars, occupations, colonizations, robbing the nations, exploitation, slavery, opium trade, genocide, etc
They don't really believe that Christendom has a monopoly on those things, do they?


There’s a disconnect between Christian teaching and actions of governments for many centuries up until today.

Why do you think there’s such stark contrast?
For the same reasons that there's a disconnect between the righteous moral teachings of any other religion and the actions of the governments in those cultures.
 
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aiki

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But Luke 14:33 and Matthew 28 great commission disagrees. Also, God is not a respecter of persons and would not have different rules for different people. Or would he?

Luke 14:25-33
25 Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
26 "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29 "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'
31 "Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?
32 "Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.
33 "So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.


And then, later, Jesus commands his disciples:

Luke 22:35-36
35 And He said to them, "When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" They said, "No, nothing."
36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.


In the Luke 14 passage, the context of verse 33 is an exhortation by Jesus to count the cost of discipleship and be prepared to sacrifice everything in following him. Jesus was not declaring that his disciples absolutely had to live as hermit-beggars, forsaking all material goods, as well as common familial relationships, going around carrying wooden crosses wherever they went. Do you really believe that when Jesus commanded those who would be his disciples to hate their siblings and parents, he was speaking literally? How does this square with his preaching, say, in Matthew 22:39, or Matthew 5:43-47? Do we read anywhere in the NT of the disciples bearing actual crosses as they traveled around? No. And we don't hear Jesus saying to Zacchaeus, or the woman at the well, or the demoniac of Gadara, or the sick man at the pool of Bethesda healed by Jesus, or the woman healed of many years of constant bleeding, or many others with whom Jesus dealt directly that they should give up everything they possessed and follow him.

And as I pointed out, the record of the Book of Acts indicates that there were many disciples of Christ who owned homes, some having businesses, too. In none of the epistles of the NT do we read commands to believers to live indigent lives, hating their families and dragging about crosses, either. So, who's misreading Luke 14:33, then? Not me.

Well, considering your “interpretation” of Luke 14:33, the condemnation is questionable. How do you know the condemnation applied to ALL homosexual behaviors? For instance, there’s a clear condemnation of the rich by Jesus, but many Christians don’t believe the condemnation applies to them. Why should homosexuals believe the condemnation applies to them?

Your assessment of my fitness to interpret the position of the Bible on homosexuality carries no weight at all with me. As far as I'm concerned, you've demonstrated a profound ignorance of Scripture and a highly-deficient interpretive hermeneutic. Your doubt as to my claim about the Bible's view of homosexuality is, therefore, quite irrelevant.

The Bible's condemnation of homosexuality is not tied to any particular associated behaviors, allowing for homosexuality outside of them. Scripture never says that so long as homosexuality occurs within long-term, monogamous relationships, its okay; scripture never confines its condemnation of homosexuality solely to temple prostitution; scripture never declares that homosexuality is fine when the cultural attitudes toward homosexuality are accepting of it. Instead, the Bible clearly defines what it means by homosexual behavior:

Leviticus 18:22
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
13 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Romans 1:24-27
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.


1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


Neither Jesus nor any of the contributors to the NT ever accommodated homosexuality; instead, they restricted sexual relations ONLY to a heterosexual couple committed to a life-long, totally monogamous union with one another. No other circumstance is even vaguely hinted at in the NT as being appropriate for sexual relations. Any sexual activity outside of the bonds of heterosexual matrimony was "fornication" which was explicitly condemned repeatedly in the NT. (Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 5; 1 Corinthians 6:18; 1 Corinthians 10:8; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Ephesians 5:3, etc.)

As a Christian, I don't view morality, God's Moral Law, as contingent upon whether or not people obey His Law. That some folk disobey His Law and take up homosexual liaisons doesn't for a moment suspend God's condemnation of such liaisons and relieve the immoral quality of them.

And Jesus never condemned riches; he condemned being a slave to riches, being mastered by a lust for material gain.

Matthew 6:24
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

I’m not twisting anything. In fact, it’s a very ironic accusation coming from someone reading Luke 14:33 and interpreting it as saying one doesn’t need to give up any possessions to be Jesus’s disciples.

Kinda' slippery here...I never said a Christian doesn't need to give up any possessions in following Christ, only that they are not required as a necessity of being a disciple of Jesus to give up all - or even most - of their possessions. These are two very different statements. So, not only have you twisted God's word but you have twisted my words, too.

Well, and Jesus made no exceptions. What applied to the 12 applied to everyone who believes.

No, he didn't. See above.

I thought God is in the different category and can do what he wants without having to explain himself. Why couldn’t God command extermination of 60 million Soviets?

Quite obviously because such a command wouldn't be in keeping with His own holy, loving, merciful, gracious nature. By nature, God is unable arbitrarily, capriciously, without moral warrant, to issue such a command.
 
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