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Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

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Michie

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This seems logical, but I have met Catholics (and fundamentalists with similar issues) who despite being pretty sure on an intellectual level found it very hard to get beyond being told from the time they are young that they are cutting themselves off from God if they leave the CC.

And for people who were brought up in any church, they often have a lot of affectionate feelings for it and comfortable memories.
True. But just asking the question & being unsure answers the salvation question. Everyone outside the RCC is not going to hell.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I wonder, does it affect a Catholic to leave moreso than someone who never entered at all?

Is judgment different? It says those who leave recrucify the Lord. They become responsible for His crucifixion when they had tasted the Holy Spirit and walked away.

I guess only God, the One Who reads hearts, has a total understanding on who exactly has indeed tasted His gifts and still walked away.
 
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Michie

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I wonder, does it affect a Catholic to leave moreso than someone who never entered at all?

Is judgment different? It says those who leave recrucify the Lord. They become responsible for His crucifixion when they had tasted the Holy Spirit and walked away.

I guess only God, the One Who reads hearts, has a total understanding on who exactly has indeed tasted His gifts and still walked away.
I would think it would depend on the heart & motives of the one who left. Knowledge, etc. I would guess many factors would come into play.

As far as those outside the RCC yet still Christian...they'd be judged according to their standards & how they understood the Gospel.

Judgement is unique & individual for each person.


Just guessing.
 
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InnerPhyre

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They were protesting, on the side of the emperor who desired Constantinople be head. That the city was vastly more remarkable than Rome since they took much of the art work from Rome - donated to them of course - so they could built it up.

It was a political move.

The 'heresy' the Bishop claimed - would that not have been council worthy?
Why not?

reason; it was ironed out that it was not a disputation of the Creed's original teaching, which is the profession of faith, but rather the Western culture kept it.
It is not in fact heretical at all. WHICH is why the Bishop had no legs in it for a council to be held.

And the Filioque was around for 500 years prior to the current standing Pope of that time.

SO that Bishop had nothing to go on. How does a Bishop - excommunicate not a single person but an entire Church arm - and do so without provocation?

The only one who created the problem was the Bishop of Constantinople by lead of the emperor. And it had a LOT to do with power and prestige and nothing to do with teaching.

There was a lot of mistrust within the Church against the West - because of language barriers and cultural standing, but there was no purpose for a council. ..ergo no council was held.
IF they used the proper channels - held a council - they would still be unable to commit heresy against the West and they knew it, so that path was left undone.

AND if you demand that the council alone stands as the mark of truth, then you are forced to admit that the East erred in changing the voices of the council that said Alexandria was second to Rome.

AS we know, the East later tried to rescind that position with Constantinople. Taking the chair of a Patriarch - and placing to a Bishoprik of all things.
AND still tried to do so without Rome's approval, so it was never once ecumenical.. nor could it be anything but anathema - if anyone wishes to judge.

Furthermore; the Creed could not be changed from it's truth - which to suggest 'and the Son' or 'Through the Son' is heretical defies the Apostle John and Tradition...of the other findings of the Trinitarian truth.

The council clearly did not intend for the truth to be negated if it needed clarification and in the West it did.
And the Son - which was not an addition but a clarification - was necessary to counter heresy.

Unless anyone deny what Christ said that HE would send the Holy Spirit. And it is or should be common understanding that all three are One.


The Filioque was around for centuries before...true. In the West. Never in the East. Trying to force it on the entire Church without a Council was the problem. It would not have stood up to a Council of the whole Church, because it is incompatible with Orthodox Theology. As the Orthodox understand and have always proclaimed, the Father is the Eternal Fountainhead of the Trinity. The Son is begotten of the Father. The Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father. The Son sends the Spirit temporally, but Eternally, He proceeds from the Father. The Father is the Source. This has nothing to do with Rome/Constantinople. That is not to say there wasn't strife between Rome and Constantinople before 1054, but saying that "protesting" the Creed being changed was all about struggle between the Church's Hierarchs for power is an enormous cop out.

To compare this to Protestantism is still flawed because it's not like the Patriarch of Constantinople was knocking on Rome's door protesting this innovation. It was the Pope of Rome who sent Cardinal Humbert to force this innovation on Constantinople.

With this particular issue, it is also funny that you bring up the Emperor of Constantinople challenging the West when it was Charlemagne, the Holy Roman Emperor who wanted the Filioque added to the Creed and Pope Leo told him to take a hike.
 
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Erose

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The Filioque was around for centuries before...true. In the West. Never in the East. Trying to force it on the entire Church without a Council was the problem. It would not have stood up to a Council of the whole Church, because it is incompatible with Orthodox Theology. As the Orthodox understand and have always proclaimed, the Father is the Eternal Fountainhead of the Trinity. The Son is begotten of the Father. The Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father. The Son sends the Spirit temporally, but Eternally, He proceeds from the Father. The Father is the Source. This has nothing to do with Rome/Constantinople. That is not to say there wasn't strife between Rome and Constantinople before 1054, but saying that "protesting" the Creed being changed was all about struggle between the Church's Hierarchs for power is an enormous cop out.

To compare this to Protestantism is still flawed because it's not like the Patriarch of Constantinople was knocking on Rome's door protesting this innovation. It was the Pope of Rome who sent Cardinal Humbert to force this innovation on Constantinople.

With this particular issue, it is also funny that you bring up the Emperor of Constantinople challenging the West when it was Charlemagne, the Holy Roman Emperor who wanted the Filioque added to the Creed and Pope Leo told him to take a hike.
All of this could have been handled in an eccumenical council. What couldn't be handled was the political issues that sprung up. 99% of the schism is political and not doctrinal. Anyone that looks at the history of this has to admit that. The Filioque was in use for nearly 500 years already and for it all of a sudden becomes the main reason for schism is, well, just being being silly.
 
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InnerPhyre

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All of this could have been handled in an eccumenical council. What couldn't be handled was the political issues that sprung up. 99% of the schism is political and not doctrinal. Anyone that looks at the history of this has to admit that. The Filioque was in use for nearly 500 years already and for it all of a sudden becomes the main reason for schism is, well, just being being silly.

What you're essentially saying is the equivalent of you and me having a disagreement and then you come to my house and punch me in the face over it and then tell me "this could have been resolved without violence."

Rome excommunicated Constantinople. After that, Constantinople excommunicated Rome. The Filioque was a big problem, but not enough at the time to break communion. It would have had to be sorted out with a Council eventually, but instead Rome said "My will is law. Accept it or be gone."

Rome initiated the schism. The Orthodox hadn't been denying the faith. They had been refusing to change the faith and the very symbol of faith established at Nicea. This is historical fact.

The East definitely had problems with the West before 1054. No one is denying that. Rome was removed from the diptychs of Constantinople before 1054. This should have resulted in a Church council, not a blanket double in-your-face excommunication.
 
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MKJ

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All of this could have been handled in an eccumenical council. What couldn't be handled was the political issues that sprung up. 99% of the schism is political and not doctrinal. Anyone that looks at the history of this has to admit that. The Filioque was in use for nearly 500 years already and for it all of a sudden becomes the main reason for schism is, well, just being being silly.

I think this is the crux. The filioque had become a problem, and not unreasonably so. The fix would have been a council and there is no reason to think one would have failed to work through the issues. But because of issues about governance, it was never allowed to happen.

The schism was at heart about governance and that has continued to be the issue (fueled by a lot of bad faith on both sides IMO.)
 
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WarriorAngel

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The Filioque was around for centuries before...true. In the West. Never in the East. Trying to force it on the entire Church without a Council was the problem.
Now there is a misconception.
The West didnt push it on the East.
It was the East who made the ta do about it.

St Maximus wrote in defense of the West using their own language. There was no push - at all. It was the East who had issues.

[/quote]
It would not have stood up to a Council of the whole Church, because it is incompatible with Orthodox Theology. As the Orthodox understand and have always proclaimed, the Father is the Eternal Fountainhead of the Trinity. The Son is begotten of the Father. The Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father. The Son sends the Spirit temporally, but Eternally, He proceeds from the Father. The Father is the Source. This has nothing to do with Rome/Constantinople. That is not to say there wasn't strife between Rome and Constantinople before 1054, but saying that "protesting" the Creed being changed was all about struggle between the Church's Hierarchs for power is an enormous cop out.[/quote]
If the East denies it is orthodox, then they err and they have the wrong teaching.
AGAIN Jesus said 'When I go I will send you the [Advocate] Holy Spirit.'
SEE ST JOHN.

His own words...and to do so was thru the Trinity to which He is.
NOW was He wrong?
Did He lie? Did He deliberately try to trump the Father?

OR was He telling the truth that HE sends the HS - being that HE is God of the Godhead.

To presume otherwise - actually knocks down the Trinity, and not explains it.

To compare this to Protestantism is still flawed because it's not like the Patriarch of Constantinople was knocking on Rome's door protesting this innovation. It was the Pope of Rome who sent Cardinal Humbert to force this innovation on Constantinople.

With this particular issue, it is also funny that you bring up the Emperor of Constantinople challenging the West when it was Charlemagne, the Holy Roman Emperor who wanted the Filioque added to the Creed and Pope Leo told him to take a hike.
i will be back...gotta run daughter to cheer.
 
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Chany

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I don't think it really matters about who pushed first. It is important for historical studies, but it is more of a theological matter. If we focus upon the history, we are just going to point to each other and scream "He started it!" like children.

If there is any problems, we should probably discuss them in theology, not history.
 
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WarriorAngel

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When Photius (d. 891) began the schism consummated by Michael Cærularius in 1054, the Byzantine Church had, since the death of Emperor Constantine in 337, been formally out of communion with the Roman Church during 248 years (55 years on account of Arianism, 11 on account of the condemnation of St. John Chrysostom, 35 on account of Zeno's Henoticon, 41 on account of Monothelism, 90 on account of Iconoclasm, 16 on account of the adulterous marriage of Constantine VI). On the whole, therefore, Constantinople had been out of communion with the Apostolic See one out of every two years. During this period nineteen patriarchs of Constantinople were open heretics, some of them quite famous, e.g. Eusebius of Nicomedia, Eudoxius, Macedonius, Nestorius, Acacius, Sergius, Pyrrhus. On the other hand must be mentioned several orthodox bishops, e.g. St. Gregory of Nazianzus, St. John Chrysostom, St. Flavian, St. Germanus, St. Tarasius, St. Methodius, and St. Ignatius, the opponent of Photius, whose virtues and literary fame compensate for the scandalous heterodoxy of their confrères. Nor can we omit illustrious monks and hymnographers like St.Romanus (Melodus), the greatest liturgical poet of the Byzantine Church, St. Maximus Confessor, St. Theodore, the noble abbot of the famous monastery of Studium (Stoudion), and many others who suffered martyrdom during the reigns of Iconoclast emperors.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Constantinople
 
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Anhelyna

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Oh dear :( here we go again :(

This sort of thread always ends up with the "you started it " and the response to that is always " No we didn't - you did "

Chany speaks well
I don't think it really matters about who pushed first. It is important for historical studies, but it is more of a theological matter. If we focus upon the history, we are just going to point to each other and scream "He started it!" like children.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Is it any wonder Rome necessitated the Filioque in light of the Eastern heresies ..?


CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Filioque



The dogma of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from Father and Son as one Principle is directly opposed to the error that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father, not from the Son.

Neither dogma nor error created much difficulty during the course of the first four centuries. Macedonius and his followers, the so-called Pneumatomachi, were condemned by the local Council of Alexandria (362) and by Pope St. Damasus (378) for teaching that the Holy Ghost derives His origin from the Son alone, by creation. If the creed used by the Nestorians, which was composed probably by Theodore of Mopsuestia, and the expressions of Theodoret directed against the ninth anathema by Cyril of Alexandria, deny that the Holy Ghost derives His existence from or through the Son, they probably intend to deny only the creation of the Holy Ghost by or through the Son, inculcating at the same time His Procession from both Father and Son. At any rate, if the double Procession of the Holy Ghost was discussed at all in those earlier times, the controversy was restricted to the East and was of short duration.





The first undoubted denial of the double Procession of the Holy Ghost we find in the seventh century among the heretics of Constantinople when St. Martin I (649-655), in his synodal writing against the Monothelites, employed the expression "Filioque". Nothing is known about the further development of this controversy; it does not seem to have assumed any serious proportions, as the question was not connected with the characteristic teaching of the Monothelites.



In the Western church the first controversy concerning the double Procession of the Holy Ghost was conducted with the envoys of the Emperor Constantine Copronymus, in the Synod of Gentilly near Paris, held in the time of Pepin (767). The synodal Acts and other information do not seem to exist. At the beginning of nineth century, John, a Greek monk of the monastery of St. Sabas, charged the monks of Mt. Olivet with heresy, they had inserted the Filioque into the Creed.


In the second half the same century, Photius, the successor of the unjustly deposed Ignatius, Patriarch of Constantinople (858), denied the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son, and opposed the insertion of the Filioque into the Constantinopolitan creed. The same position was maintained towards the end of the tenth century by the Patriarchs Sisinnius and Sergius, and about the middle of the eleventh century by the Patriarch Michael Caerularius, who renewed and completed the Greek schism.

The rejection of the Filioque, or the double Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and Son, and the denial of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff constitute even today the principal errors of the Greek church.





While outside the Church doubt as to the double Procession of the Holy Ghost grew into open denial, inside the Church the doctrine of the Filioque was declared to be a dogma of faith in the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Second council of Lyons (1274) Council of Florence (1438-1445).. Thus the Church proposed in a clear and authoritative form the teaching of Sacred Scripture and tradition on the Procession of the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.





As to the Sacred Scripture, the inspired writers call the Holy Ghost the Spirit of the Son (Galatians 4:6), the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), Corinthians 2:11). Hence they attribute to the Holy Ghost the same relation to the Son as to the Father.

Again, according to Sacred Scripture, the Son sends the Holy Ghost (Luke 24:49; John 15:26; 16:7; 20:22; Acts 2:33; Titus 3:6), just as the Father sends the Son (Romans 3:3; etc.), and as the Father sends the Holy Ghost (John 14:26).



Now the "mission" or "sending" of one Divine Person by another does not mean merely that the Person said to be sent assumes a particular character, at the suggestion of Himself in the character of Sender, as the Sabellians maintained; nor does it imply any inferiority in the Person sent, as the Arians taught; but it denotes, according to the teaching of the weightier theologians and Fathers, the Procession of the Person sent from the Person Who sends.


Sacred Scripture never presents the Father as being sent by the Son, nor the Son as being sent by the Holy Ghost. The very idea of the term "mission" implies that the person sent goes forth for a certain purpose by the power of the sender, a power exerted on the person sent by way of a physical impulse, or of a command, or of prayer, or finally of production; now, Procession, the analogy of production, is the only manner admissible in God. It follows that the inspired writers present the Holy Ghost as proceeding from the Son, since they present Him as sent by the Son.



Finally, St. John (16:13-15) gives the words of Christ: "What things soever he [the Spirit] shall hear, he shall speak; ...he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you. All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine." Here a double consideration is in place. First, the Son has all things that the Father hath, so that He must resemble the Father in being the Principle from which the Holy Ghost proceeds. Secondly, the Holy Ghost shall receive "of mine" according to the words of the Son; but Procession is the only conceivable way of receiving which does not imply dependence or inferiority. In other words, the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son.



The teaching of Sacred Scripture on the double Procession of the Holy Ghost was faithfully preserved in Christian tradition. Even the Greek Orthodox grant that the Latin Fathers maintain the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son. The great work on the Trinity by Petavius (Lib. VII, cc. iii sqq.) develops the proof of this contention at length. Here we mention only some of the later documents in which the patristic doctrine has been clearly expressed:

..........



Some of the foregoing conciliar documents may be seen in Hefele, "Conciliengeschichte" (2d ed.), III, nn. 109, 117, 252, 411; cf. P.G. XXVIII, 1557 sqq. Bessarion, speaking in the Council of Florence, inferred the tradition of the Greek Church from the teaching of the Latin; since the Greek and Latin Fathers before the ninth century were the members of the same Church, it is antecedently improbable that the Eastern Fathers should have denied a dogma firmly maintained by the Western. Moreover, there are certain considerations which form a direct proof for the belief of the Greek Fathers in the double Procession of the Holy Ghost.



The only Scriptural difficulty deserving our attention is based on the words of Christ as recorded in John 15:26, that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, without mention being made of the Son. But in the first place, it can not be shown that this omission amounts to a denial; in the second place, the omission is only apparent, as in the earlier part of the verse the Son promises to "send" the Spirit. The Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son is not mentioned in the Creed of Constantinople, because this Creed was directed against the Macedonian error against which it sufficed to declare the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father. The ambiguous expressions found in some of the early writers of authority are explained by the principles which apply to the language of the early Fathers generally.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I suppose if anyone dislikes hammering out the history - then they dont really need to discuss this.

If someone is going to ask why Catholic, i am going to give the answer - which necessitates the truth of history including the fathers, the heresies, the schism et al.

It is what it is. And time and again it comes out rather badly for the EO - that i dont enjoy. But IMHO - i will defend the Pope and his ancient position of the Church.
 
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Anhelyna

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And so will my Eastern Christian Brethren fight for their right to defend their point of view

And so it continues

"You started it"

"No - we didn't . You started it "


This as usual is not going to go anywhere . It's just going to get more and more acrimonious .

POINTING FINGERS DOES NOT ACHIEVE ANYTHING
 
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J

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The Filioque was around for centuries before...true. In the West. Never in the East. Trying to force it on the entire Church without a Council was the problem. It would not have stood up to a Council of the whole Church, because it is incompatible with Orthodox Theology. As the Orthodox understand and have always proclaimed, the Father is the Eternal Fountainhead of the Trinity. The Son is begotten of the Father. The Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father. The Son sends the Spirit temporally, but Eternally, He proceeds from the Father. The Father is the Source. This has nothing to do with Rome/Constantinople. That is not to say there wasn't strife between Rome and Constantinople before 1054, but saying that "protesting" the Creed being changed was all about struggle between the Church's Hierarchs for power is an enormous cop out.

To compare this to Protestantism is still flawed because it's not like the Patriarch of Constantinople was knocking on Rome's door protesting this innovation. It was the Pope of Rome who sent Cardinal Humbert to force this innovation on Constantinople.

With this particular issue, it is also funny that you bring up the Emperor of Constantinople challenging the West when it was Charlemagne, the Holy Roman Emperor who wanted the Filioque added to the Creed and Pope Leo told him to take a hike.

As a point of history, the controversy began in earnest when Caerularius sent a letter to Rome accusing us of heresy for using unleavened bread (azymes) for our Eucharist instead of leavend bread, based on a very dubious etymological argument, as well as attacking fating on Saturday and the Latin practice of celibacy. The question of the filioque does not appear to have figured much in the initial schism proper, and far from resulting from a Latin attempt to force our practices on the East was rather catalysed by the attempt by Caerularius to condemn legitimate Western practices and to arrogate to himself a precedence that was not his.
 
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WarriorAngel

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If someone is asking - do you think they only want white washed details one sided?
Because they got one sided information and indeed...the history of the Pope's position is so evident - it takes revision or mental gymnastics to change the writers meanings of the fathers...and scriptures.

Even today - the East understand his primacy.
Now why they dont unite to him...i dont know.

However; knowing all of this - is primarily important because picking a Church is not like picking one's underwear for the day...to be changed tomorrow.

I doubt myself, even with the evidence, that someone's mind ismt made up for the moment. And perhaps this thread was nothing more than a bait..but i cannot presume to know.
What i can do is present the facts.

I could go even deeper but it is charity that holds back the sword. If that is prudent i dont know.
 
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Joseph Hazen

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Okay, can someone explain to me why we don't we just reconcile and move on? What are the main disagreements between Eastern and Western?

If you ask this question of Romans they say "It's cultural, linguistic, and political issues. It's pretty much the papacy and that's it."

If you ask the Orthodox they say "It's dogmatic and theological differences. It's the papacy, the treasury of merit, the distinction between mortal and venial sin. It's indulgences, it's the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Yes, it's even the Filioque."

The Romans respond with "You're just an anti-Catholic polemicist who's harping on issues that have been settled and who just doesn't want to re-unite!"

The Orthodox respond with "No, these are very serious issues, and there are others, you just don't understand why they're issues so you say they're not."

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

If you want both views of the story ask here and in The Ancient Way, but it's not a big deal. The Romans aren't going to change their perspective and the Orthodox aren't going to change ours. You probably can find old threads on the issues if you search for them.
 
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