Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

[stranger]

And why would God judge the masses at judgement day if they were already pre-judged and condemned in this earth ... ?

Why would God save the few in this earth [Matt 7:14] to be kings and priests in the kingdom if there were no-oone there to minister to and rule over ? ... 144,000 kings and priests can only have been saved first in order to rule the mass of sinners destroyed in the end of this earth when the many are resurrected ... the countless many of Rev 7:9-10 must have been destroyed [Matt 7:13] in the wrath of God and the end of this earth, but there they are , resurrected and crying 'Salvation to our God' ... clearly they were not 'damned' to anything but death for sin in this earth, for there they are being saved by being righteous in the kingdom, past sins forgotten ... but here's the point, there are many in mass religion , not few ... so they will all die in their sins because sinners taught them to believe lies in this life, not that death is the wages of all sin [excepting that those who cease sinning will be forgiven, even in this life] :-

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Note that men do not die for Adam's , none is responsible for the sins of their fathers down the ages ... Adam only ensured we are guilty when we sin, by gaining the knowledge of good and evil from the tree... our consciences tell us we are being evil when we sin, so we are not innocent when we sin and we shall thus die for our sins unless we stop and love instead as Jesus commanded ... sin is not loving, it is evil, of the devil... those who follow Christ and name him have to stop sinning and obey Jesus, else he is not their Lord and says he will deny them :-
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

But sinners teach many that sinning continually is OK for Jesus will go on ever forgiving ... Jesus states that if one has not stopped by the time he returns then he wil not, cannot, take one... evil cannot be brought before God as if it were love... one has to stop being evil to be acceptable to God... so perhaps you see why most fail in ths life of evil surrounding men even in religion and politics [now mixed together in collusion as God has said it will be here , even most of Israel going a-whoring after state power in the world by force of arms, not by obedience to love as God commands... ]

Even more convincing perhaps, what of the billions of men who lived and died sinners long before they even heard of Christ, even long before Jesus first came ...

religion condemns them or fudges over the issue because they see that is absurd... surely you must see that they must have an opportunity to become loving after resurrection, else why would god have made them live just to die unjustly with no means to be accepted by him whatsoever... the churches cannot answer this because they simply are wrong, slavation of the few comes first [at Jesus' return] and the many die for sin [including all sinners who bizarrely claim to know Christ but have not stopped sinning and turned to loving as he commanded] ... we know the MANY die and FEW survive this earth as saints [Matt 7:13-14] taken by Jesus from the wrath of God on all sinners , so why pretend many can be saved at Jesus return, it is imply ignoring what is written by the saints and Jesus [Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8] , one may fool many, but one cannot fool God ...

so the amny are destroyed [Matt 7:13] for sin, but the many are also saved later [Rev 7:9-10] ... it is Jesus says so , so why not read him and believe him ?

the main salvation of mankind is then after the resurrection of all sinners from 'hell' [hades] and they are veryy obviously then not judged by their sins in this life , but any righteousness in the kingdom counts to have God forget past sins as God says ... it is stopping sinning that counts, becoming loving.... neither you nor anyone else can afford to be judged for ever on one's past sins , else none but Jesus would be saved at all...

Equally it is absurd to teach that the law has changed, sine the new covenant is given first to ancient Israel [Jer 31:31-34] ... when paul repeats it in the nT it still says eactly the same, that it is with those whose fathers broke the old covenant... so unless your ancestors broke the old covenant , you are not under grace , and you too will have to rely on the wages of your sin being paid in full by death

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do you not see how absurd it is to claim that men are pre-judged by their sins in this life , just because some rather biased translator put 'damnation' instead of the truer translation 'judgement' ... there simply is no evidence of pre-judgment of mankind's masses in this world , it is a myth believed by the many, but we know the many will die sinners [Matt 7:13] and be destroyed with this earth and heavens... yet countless many are saved , if one believes Jesus ...

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Who shall they rule over? Instead of injection your own thesis, lets look at whent he first resurrection and second resurrection take place.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So the first resurrection takes place before the 1000 years begins. Also notice that the rest of the dead who did not rise in the first resurrection remained dead. The second resurrection happens after the 1000 years are finished. There is therefore problems with the below statement

144,000 kings and priests can only have been saved first in order to rule the mass of sinners destroyed in the end of this earth when the many are resurrected ... the countless many of Rev 7:9-10 must have been destroyed [Matt 7:13] in the wrath of God and the end of this earth

1. Those who rise int he first resurrection are described as priests of God, so there is no one ruling over those who rise in the first resurrection besides God.

2. Those who are destroyed at the end of the earth are not said to be resurrection immediately. Paul says that the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ will meet the Lord in the air. The only one's who would be struck down at the coming of Jesus would be the wicked living according to Revelation 19 and the first resurrection is not for these people according to Revelation 20.

3. You also presume that the great multitude would have suffered God's wrath. That is nowhere in the bible, in fact it says this..

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

What is this text saying we are saved from? Wrath! We are not appointed to wrath but to salvation. They are mutually exclusive. But in Revelation itself a few verses later it tells who the great multitude are.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So these are those who have come out of great tribulation and not God's wrath. Those who face God's wrath and die must remain dead because the first resurrection is for the dead in Christ.

 

[stranger]

Who shall they rule over? Instead of injection your own thesis, lets look at whent he first resurrection and second resurrection take place.

I have no thesis and have no interest in theology... one cannot study God, but one day all will listen to Him and obey ... I only discuss His scriptures because so many think they can reasonably believe sinners' interpretations instead of finding god's explanations in scripture ...

So the first resurrection takes place before the 1000 years begins. Also notice that the rest of the dead who did not rise in the first resurrection remained dead. The second resurrection happens after the 1000 years are finished.

That is indeed what it says

There is therefore problems with the below statement

1. Those who rise in the first resurrection are described as priests of God, so there is no one ruling over those who rise in the first resurrection besides God.

Well more-or-less agreed, except that it is Jesus who is given to rule them

2. Those who are destroyed at the end of the earth are not said to be resurrection immediately. Paul says that the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ will meet the Lord in the air. The only one's who would be struck down at the coming of Jesus would be the wicked living according to Revelation 19 and the first resurrection is not for these people according to Revelation 20.

Indeed only the 144.000 saints meet Jesus in the spirit [same word as 'air'] at his return , many resurrected to life first and then all translated to spirit ... all sinners remain in this earth to die in the wrath of God , no sinner can take part inthe first resurrection as any still sinners are not ready for translation

3. You also presume that the great multitude would have suffered God's wrath. That is nowhere in the bible, in fact it says this..

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

What is this text saying we are saved from? Wrath! We are not appointed to wrath but to salvation. They are mutually exclusive.

the text you quote is addressed to the saints, not to sinners... to the 144,000 then , not the masses of sinners of this earth

But in Revelation itself a few verses later it tells who the great multitude are.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So these are those who have come out of great tribulation and not God's wrath. Those who face God's wrath and die must remain dead because the first resurrection is for the dead in Christ.

Read Rev 7 again ... first is talks of the 144,000 sealed firstfruit saints , then it says that after this Jesus sees the countles many of all nations ... we know that only tens of thousands of saints leave the earth at Jesus' return [Jude 1:14] and Jesus gives a more prceise figure three time in his revelation... we know from Matt 7:14 that they are FEW, not the countless many saved afterward in Rev 7:9-10...

There is no doubt, simply by counting, that the countless many are indeed the ones saved after the second resurrection [of the unjust] , so after the Millennium ... in the kingdom set up for their righteous works leading to perfection of love and their salvation by means of the ministry of the few and Jesus [which is why the few are first, God requires but 144,000 king-priests to run the kingdom for billions later, after the Millennium ... Jesus brought in the 144,000, if each brings in about the same number that is about the same number as the number of men that ever lived ... the kingdom is indeed a power process as in Jesus parables, not a simple one-off salvation as preached by sinners ... Rev 7: 3-10 summarises the first two phases of it ... the few brought back to God by Jesus in this world , the many brought back by the few after the Millennium ... else there would be no need for firstfruits and a second resurrection after the Millennium...

 

[agape101]

Indeed Jesus says that ALL creation will accept him in the end, and Satan is created , part of creation and made subject to death , just as Jesus was [Ezek 28, Isaiah 14]

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

If you believe you are saved by accepting Jesus , then what Jesus says here means Satan is eventually saved too ,[ albeit at the end of time ...]

That is very bold to say that satan will be saved too. I have always seen satan as the "waster created to destroy." and that he would not exist beyond his purpose. but I am open.

 

[agape101]

Yes that is another way of looking at it, but I believe it is the wrong way. The bible is clear enough to let us know that these fires are literal and also that no one is going to come back from this death.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

How is there even a resurrection from that. Its either one of two things. Its either one has everlasting life or perishes. The second death is why those who will perish will perish. No coming back after that. Both soul and body will be destroyed.

Literal fire still only transforms elements. If you set your couch on fire- the couch has been destroyed, but the elements have only been transformed.

I'm bringing this up because the argument became about literal fire or not. also literal fire is necessary in the refining of gold and other precious metals.

although the term for fire used in revelation is closer related to the "fire of the lord" then a "campfire" or something of that nature...

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Literal fire still only transforms elements. If you set your couch on fire- the couch has been destroyed, but the elements have only been transformed.

I'm bringing this up because the argument became about literal fire or not. also literal fire is necessary in the refining of gold and other precious metals.

although the term for fire used in revelation is closer related to the "fire of the lord" then a "campfire" or something of that nature...

Literal fire does destroy certain things but also totally consumes certain things. We can't just take one aspect of fire and use it as a base to say that the fire is just to transform us. The bible says that into smoke the wicked shall consume away. Gold, when refined in fire does not consume away, but it is purified. If something is to be consumed, it is to be annihilated and not purified.

 

[stranger]

Literal fire does destroy certain things but also totally consumes certain things. We can't just take one aspect of fire and use it as a base to say that the fire is just to transform us. The bible says that into smoke the wicked shall consume away. Gold, when refined in fire does not consume away, but it is purified. If something is to be consumed, it is to be annihilated and not purified.

You are waving your hands in the air, instead of understanding the symbology using scripture to explain itself ...

So let's look at the scripture about the many destroyed sinners of Matt 7:13 ... we know [Matt 7:14] that few find the way in this life to Jesus and the rest of mankind are sinners still by Jesus' return and are utterly destroyed in the end of the earth and heavens... nothing left of the universe, let alone them... even the elements are destroyed in fervent heat , nothing left ...

but then the countless many of all nations are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] , all the sinners are resurrected in the second resurrection... how ? ... because their spirit returned to God and it is the spirit animating a body that creates [or re-creates] the soul and person :-

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Note carefully that the soul[life] is CREATED by means of the spirit , the body without the spirit is dead, no life, no soul ...

but the spirit is of God, one cannot destroy God... te spirit is the only way to get from this earth and heavens to the new earth and heavens... the few saints are translated to spirit after any required resurrection [the first] so they have no problem, the many though can only be resurrected by means of the spirit and God will not accept any to the third heaven [spoken of by Paul as paradise , and the garden of Eden, where the tree of life (immortality) is ] until one is perfected in love, stops sinning then, becomes a saint ... so there is nowhere else but the new earth for the spirit of the many sinners of this earth to go ...

unsurprisingly then that is where God says the many are resurrected to, the second resurrection, of the unjust...billions who have been paid wages of their own sins in death... freed in resurrection with an opportunity to be righteous in the new earth, or suffer a second death, wages of continued sin... Jesus says countless many of them will be saved then, at judgement day , saved by works though , only if they are saints in their new life ...but teh few will minsiter and rule by the law of love of God, so many make it who didn't do so in this earth, countless amny of all nations as Jesus states[Rev 7:9-10] , not the few who find the way now in this life...

So much for utter destruction then , the spirit is not subject to it at all...

 

[stranger]

...

 

[Soul Searcher]

Literal fire does destroy certain things but also totally consumes certain things. We can't just take one aspect of fire and use it as a base to say that the fire is just to transform us. The bible says that into smoke the wicked shall consume away. Gold, when refined in fire does not consume away, but it is purified. If something is to be consumed, it is to be annihilated and not purified.

Hmm sounds liek you are close. Remeber the passage I mentioned earlier where Paul says the work of every man will be revealed by fire, wether it be silver and gold or straw and stubble. That each will suffer lose or gain reward but the person shall be saved as by fire. Looking to revelation we see that the work of every man will be tried [lake of fire] there will be much smoke. The word translated torment means to test the quality of gold or silver. Sounds a lot like what Paul was speaking of doesn't it? Revelation also says that those who have overcame will not be harmed. I take this to mean that there is no straw nor stubble left in these prior to the lof.
Paul tells us that each will suffer loss [the burning away of the straw and stubble] or gain reward [pure gold refined] This of course is all symbolic referring to the state of ones soul. The fire will indeed destory sin, evil, corruption just as a literal fire destroys straw and stubble. Yet the fire will purify the good in us by destroying the evil just as a literal fire purifies gold and silver by removing impurities.

Think about it. None of us are without stubble and none are without some silver and or gold only the stubble is destroyed silver and gold will remain.

 

[stranger]

That is very bold to say that satan will be saved too. I have always seen satan as the "waster created to destroy." and that he would not exist beyond his purpose. but I am open.

It is not bold at all, it i simply pointing out what Jesus has pointed out , that all creation will accept him in the end ...

and Satan, despite being the left-hand covering cherub at the throne of God is a created being , created early even being around in the garden of Eden , part of creation :-

Ezekiel 28:13 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God ....
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

so you see, all accept Jesus in the end , although Satan is the last to admit his ways don't work, even for him , and lovingness does...

 

[stranger]

Literal fire still only transforms elements. If you set your couch on fire- the couch has been destroyed, but the elements have only been transformed.

I'm bringing this up because the argument became about literal fire or not. also literal fire is necessary in the refining of gold and other precious metals.

although the term for fire used in revelation is closer related to the "fire of the lord" then a "campfire" or something of that nature...

can one even conceive of a physical fire that is unquenchable... ?

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

... or that John the baptist is here talking about farming techniques ?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Well.. I agree that the fire is not meant as literal but I also know that the term unquenchable fire is a valid term although not entirely accurate. It is unwise to consider this to mean that the fire will burn forever though. Unquenchable simply means that the fire can not be put out. It does not mean that the fire will not go out on its own when the fuel has burned up.

There are many instances of this term in the bible referring to fires [some literal] which do not burn today so if anyone assumes it means forever they have missunderstood the text.

 

[stranger]

As the bible points out with no less authority than Jesus, there is a a beginning and an end ,time ends even in the new [second] earth ... even our science has begun to catch up and men of science realise time was created when the universe [space-time] was created

Most folks can't wrap their minds around that, that the creator is not in time, but time He reated [and destroys]

thus there is no 'forever' , no 'eternity' , but rather the spirit is time-less, without time, unchanging ...

thus the mistranslations which are at the root of much false dogma of religion could be resolved by scripture or indeed by modern science ... but they continue to fool billions

fires one is unable to quench indeed do go out by themselves , even the symbolic ones ... symbolic 'fire' of the conflict in folks with their own consciences about their unlovingness in life to others [as a way of life in many already] is indeed unquenchable by men, sin has bands that bind men to unloving ways... it takes the holy spirit of God Himself to untie those, confronting man with the all-but-unbearable truth that one messed up oneself and cannot put it straight without being shown that lovingness is a better way by having one's faith in love restored [and then perfecting that love in trial in life ... not by any means can one punish the dead to achieve this as so many believe , or even go on to accuse God that He cannot restore faith in love in man and punishes the dead for no reason but vengeance , with no hope of ever changing them... bizarre what folks will believe against scripture if told they must do so by sinners, hypocrites even]

Anyway, God promises that the unquenchable 'fire' does go out in the end and all creation will accept Jesus and be returned to faith in love they had as children [again, Jesus was human and not born a sinner, so why believe anyone else is born in sin as many do... the scripture is clear that we are not responsible for anyone else's sin but our own, no-one dies for Adam's sins, but we do know good from evil because of Adam, and so are guilty when we ourselves sin... for that we are not innocent, but our consciences tell us we did wrong ... so we die for sin because we are not innocent , but on account of the knowledge Adam brought us, not because we are held accountable for any sins of Adam [indeed Adam was innocent until he had eaten the fruit and knew good from evil , so much for the nonsense of 'original sin' ... again Paul explains all this , but folks ignore saints in place of believing divided sinners of their mass religion of sinners led by sinners for themselves , not for truth of God]

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

If one actually believes Jesus then one will accept what he reveals here, that all creation will submit to his command to love God and thus love one another ... even what most ignore, that Satan too is created, will submit to Jesus in the end when men finally desert him ... such is the power of soothsaying lies about God that many cannot believe these words of Jesus who say and think they are 'Christians' , yet disbelieve the united words of the saints and prophets of God in favour of believing divided sinners in fancy frocks and hats ... Satan knows well the bands of sin that bind mankind to worship him, to continue not to love as habitual sinners in this earth ...

Isaiah 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

The witness of Jesus, saints and prophets will not break the bands of sin, man cannot quench the fire of conscience , the knowledge of love that is the opposite of sin most live by which burns inside... but the fire goes out eventually for the many [Rev 7:9-10], when God releases the truth to all flesh :-

Joel 2:28 ...it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Again, whilst it is obvious that all our sons and daughters don't yet prophesy, and nor do all old men dream dreams about the truth of God, nor all young men see visions, still sinners teach that God already baptised all flesh ... and sinners believe sinners, not what is clearly said by Joel here ...

indeed religion cannot accept this by Joel , because it PROVES yet again that the many are not saved in this world ... many men are dead as sinners and clearly cannot be baptised of the spirit as God promises here until after the resurrection of the unjust, the second resurrection, in the new earth when the kingdom has come upon earth [but as Jesus states, not this earth]

but men live righteously in the new earth as Peter reveals... rues by Jesus and the few saints of this earth... and if one lives righteously then past sins are forgiven [Ezek 18:20- ]

So the many indeed cannot be saved until the next life when God reveals all truth [john 16:13] to all flesh by spirit baptism of resurrected sinners who live righteously and are judged by works at judgement day, not by grace as the few saints of this earth...

Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Again Jesus states that hell does NOT hold the dead sinners of this earth for all time, let alone 'forever' ... but he has the keys of hell [not Satan] and all are released from death [even Satan too, as he states] , all are told the truth not be sinners or saints, but by God Himself , and so countless amny of all nations are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] but first the firstfruits must set up the kingdom, because ministering to billions is no trivial task... [Rev7:3-8]

the fire goes out on count of the love of God fro His creation that makes Him God ... it is quite absurd to suggest that god can fail to convince mankind that love is a better way after he convinces rebellious disrespectful Israel to become His perfect priesthood of love in the kingdom, just the thin end of His might wedge, the power of love, the power of the 'fire' of God in EVERY heart in EVERY conscience, however much now denied because of the bands of sin used by Satan to get this whole world [bar the few saints] to worship him :-

Rev 13:3-4 ... and all the world wondered after the beast
and they worshipped the dragon...

Again sinners simply cannot believe Jesus here, that they worship Satan in disguise as god in their religion ... it is too much to ask of most men now that they believe Jesus ... the truth is just too painful, has to be denied, ignored , even ignoring the fire and living grey empty lives is better to most now than the pain of facing the fire of God's truth .. and as Jesus says it must be so for now, the kingdom just is not ready for the many yet, not even for the few yet , until Jesus' return ... then the many are put in 'store' until the mass resurrection of the unjust after the Millennium...

fire has its uses then, but it must go out, even if man cannot quench it ...

 

[agape101]

Literal fire does destroy certain things but also totally consumes certain things. We can't just take one aspect of fire and use it as a base to say that the fire is just to transform us. The bible says that into smoke the wicked shall consume away. Gold, when refined in fire does not consume away, but it is purified. If something is to be consumed, it is to be annihilated and not purified.

what is the verse that says - i have decided to deliver up such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his soul might be saved in the day of the lord. something like that. But the gist is that something that is destroyed by God can be restored as a new creation. If we are to gain a new incorruptible body aren't I to assume the old one will be destroyed? If your premise is that a thing that is destroyed cannot be restored I disagree.

 

[agape101]

As the bible points out with no less authority than Jesus, there is a a beginning and an end ,time ends even in the new [second] earth ... even our science has begun to catch up and men of science realise time was created when the universe [space-time] was created

Most folks can't wrap their minds around that, that the creator is not in time, but time He reated [and destroys]

thus there is no 'forever' , no 'eternity' , but rather the spirit is time-less, without time, unchanging ...

...

It is obvious that there are ages according to scripture. God created the different ages. I don't know how many there are, but there are ages. two times in the NT is the phrase "pro cronon aionion" which translates to "before age-abiding times" which sounds a little awkward but gives the literal truth thaat there was a space before the ages were created that is not measurable. Then paul talks about the consummation of the ages (aionon) in 1st corinthians. He calls this the "end." There is then an unquantified space after the ages.

the doctrinal problems come when the translators try to have the adjective for "pertaining to the age" mean "eternal." however- "eternal" is irrespective of time and "aionios" has to abide by it. As a believer I am not promised eternal life, but aionios life or "life pertaining to the age" in the ages to come. after which the adjective aionios means nothing since there are no more aionon (ages).

 

[razzelflabben]

Has anyone mentioned that hell was created for fallen angels, but will be used for nonbelievers?

 

[stranger]

It is obvious that there are ages according to scripture. God created the different ages. I don't know how many there are, but there are ages. two times in the NT is the phrase "pro cronon aionion" which translates to "before age-abiding times" which sounds a little awkward but gives the literal truth thaat there was a space before the ages were created that is not measurable. Then paul talks about the consummation of the ages (aionon) in 1st corinthians. He calls this the "end." There is then an unquantified space after the ages.

the doctrinal problems come when the translators try to have the adjective for "pertaining to the age" mean "eternal." however- "eternal" is irrespective of time and "aionios" has to abide by it. As a believer I am not promised eternal life, but aionios life or "life pertaining to the age" in the ages to come. after which the adjective aionios means nothing since there are no more aionon (ages).

our [mostly intrinsically time-dependent] language struggles with expressing what is outside the creation of time and its ending ... you render it as 'before' but truly there is no 'before' time is created , there is no time in the sense of transition from moment to moment serially, there is no change by which to consider time...
God simply is ... and cannot begin or end, cannot change , no time exists for God in the spirit but He can create the illusion of time by creating a sequential consciousness of progression through part of what He knows, indeed He inevitably does so by knowing of it ... existence is then the essence of being , not our apparent life in time by means of change ...as we think we know it ...
the spirit is of existence- and life is merely a partial consequence [really not that important because it only expresses what is impossible for the spirit , decay, death, ending]

IMHO then the word 'before' is singularly inappropriate in attempting what is a nigh-on impossible translation ...since we have little conception of what time-less-ness is ... using the word 'before' to refer to what is time-less surely is not helpful though ... it has implications of time where there is no time...

 

[stranger]

Has anyone mentioned that hell was created for fallen angels, but will be used for nonbelievers?

all sinners are non-believers :-
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil


all men are released from hell, Jesus has the key, not Satan :-

Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


... 'angels' are merely messengers of God , indistinguishable from men :-

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

there are good and evil messages from God ,but no such thing as a 'fallen' messenger , all God's messages are relevant , pertinent, important ... none less or more than any other

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

that Satan falls to the earth simply represents his transition from covering cherub to mortal man so that his pride can be dented by suffering death for his blasphemy... God simply proving to him that he is no god ...[Ezek 28, Isaiah 14]

 

[brinny]

i've been meditating on the title of this thread....and yes, it is my prayer that God will touch hearts and draw all men unto Him. Oh that it were so.

Let us pray that it is.

 

[stranger]

i've been meditating on the title of this thread....and yes, it is my prayer that God will touch hearts and draw all men unto Him. Oh that it were so.

Let us pray that it is.

let us pray then...
and have hope
for that is what Jesus says will happen
and it is a beautiful loving thought
a lovely prayer
which scripture says God will answer...

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

and we need to pray for patience of saints too,
as it takes a long time for all to come to accept Jesus
and not all will do so at the same time
and give up their sin, for love of all men instead
...