Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

[IntolerantSociopath]

Because Not all of us want to go.

I think this is extremely unfair to people. An omnipotent superbeing could probably do a better job of putting the word out, supposing the 'default' position is being tortured for eternity; or even (as some more 'moderate' Christians advance, and which I think is more Biblical) non-existence.

However, my view on the Good News is quite different from Christians, so I would say that the Anointed One already has saved us all, and that we only have to not screw it up. Not screwing it up would include not doing really horrible things, and that's about it - and what is a 'horrible thing'? Well, I reject the traditional Talmudic law, that is for sure, as I see the Old Testament god of the Hebrews as a demonaical Demiurge and not the Father of Light and Creator God, of whom the Anointed One is a mal'akh or avatar (rather than a 'bodily' man).

 

[Korah]

As for hell: I haven't seen one description by Jesus Christ (who really championed the idea of hell) that looks any different than the world we live in. In other words, hell looks really bad from the perspective of living in union with God. But to those on the outside, it's just another day in the life. As far as I'm concerned, Jesus could have been describing reincarnation when he described hell.

Because if you ask me, the idea of coming back here to do this stuff all over again as compared to sitting at the banquet table with all the faithful warriors of Christ, it's enough to make me scared straight.

I'm not trying to mitigate hell. There are souls God hates and His wrath is spilled out against them. I'm just saying fire and brimstone may be metaphorical. I mean, what do you call a world that would hang Jesus Christ on the Cross? Oh, and we'd do it again today, I assure you. Nothing has changed.

And is there no way out of hell? Perhaps I'm in hell now. God knows I deserve it. Perhaps my fight against atheism is my way out.

What do you think?

I hear what you're saying about reincarnation. Maybe that's what the Catholics call Purgatory. Or Purgatory and Hell combined.

 

[Gareth]

I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Don't get offended by this question. I don't know how else to put it into words. Thanks

It's never easy to put into words something we find difficult to comprehend. However, who said we all go to heaven? If Adam had not fallen from the grace of God, Satan would of failed in his quest to get glory and honour for himself. Where would mankind be found? In heaven or here on the earth? What was God's original intention for mankind? It was to fill the earth. Heaven as a destination is something that God has allowed to happen because of the Kingdom but only for some people. As shown in the Bible God's Kingdom is the only thing that will bring real peace and security.

 

[stranger]

Nay the few were chosen by God from the beginning , and accepted unconditionally under the new covenant [which states it is with those whose fathers broke the old covenant... not with anyone who tries to muscle in on God's promises to the House of Israel and the Jews]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[stranger]

The point being missed in this thread is that God is the saviour of ALL men ... but not all at one time, not all at Jesus' return

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

it's simply that there can only be a FEW who FIRST believe to become the kings and priests in the kingdom of God who minister to billions of sinners of this earth resurrected to the new earth from hell and judged by their works there,

the many having been freed from sin by death [its 'wages'] ,

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

not by the new covenant with the few of the House of Israel and House of Judah who are the few [Matt 7:14. Rev 7:3-8] firstfruits taken at Jesus' return to set up the kingdom for the many later [Rev7:9-10] according to the OT promises of God to Jacob and others ...

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

...those few that actually believe Jesus now do in fact give up being unloving [sin] as he did , in obedience to Jesus commands as lord , most folks do not yet stop sinning as required of all who name Christ :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Thus the few get to see God far sooner than the many, but all will be freed from death and hell eventually , as Jesus promises, and he has the keys to hell, not Satan :-

Revelation 20:13 ....death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works .

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


The point then is that few are saved first, the many cannot get to be with God until they have become loving too in the new earth kingdom promised by God :-2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[brinny]

I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Don't get offended by this question. I don't know how else to put it into words. Thanks

It is not possible. His Son is the Door, and only Him. It has been set in place for all of eternity. There is no changing it. It is the ONLY WAY to a holy God. The enemy knew that we would be eternally separated from this holy God. Yet God found a way to scroll back that curse of sin and death that we were born into the grips of. His only begotten Son. His perfect, sin-less, Emmanuel, in flesh, would do what nothing or no one else could accomplish. Die and be the propitiation for our sin, that cursed us. And so there it is. His Remedy for our hopeless condition.

THe tragedy is, not all will welcome this Remedy. He will be rejected by many.

 

[stranger]

It is not possible. His Son is the Door, and only Him. It has been set in place for all of eternity. There is no changing it. It is the ONLY WAY to a holy God. The enemy knew that we would be eternally separated from this holy God. Yet God found a way to scroll back that curse of sin and death that we were born into the grips of. His only begotten Son. His perfect, sin-less, Emmanuel, in flesh, would do what nothing or no one else could accomplish. Die and be the propitiation for our sin, that cursed us. And so there it is. His Remedy for our hopeless condition.

THe tragedy is, not all will welcome this Remedy. He will be rejected by many.

Most have not been given the option to accept Jesus in this life , thus it is premature for religionists to judge mankind by their sin in this life, when God judges no-one until after the Millennium except the few that find the narrow way in this life whom He elected to be His priests and kings in the kingdom for ministering to the many later resurrected...

thus read more carefully what Jesus actually says :-

Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Note then that Jesus has the keys to hell and death, not Satan, and all are released from hell and death , freed from sin by death, to be judged by their works in the kingdom , not by their sin in this life :-

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

they have no need of the new covenant for in death the wages of sin are fully paid , only the few who find the narrow strait way in this life have need of the new covenant and it states it is only with those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-2]:-

Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers ...

Thus Jesus states that all the few are descendants of the named sons of Jacob he lists [Rev 7:3-8]

the MANY , we know, are destroyed in teh wrath of God against ALL sinners of this earth, but Jesus says they will all be resurrected from hell , freed of sin by death , to have the chance to follow him in the righteous new earth kingdom of God as flesh and bones ,and the many of the gentiles will then be saved , long after the few :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Jesus showed us we are flesh and bones after resurrection , not spirit , so the kingdom come is physical, not in heaven, but upon the earth, but not this earth as Jesus says :-

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world

So the few are saved at Jesus return by grace , but the many gentiles are saved later , in the new earth, after resurrection, by works in the righteous kingdom of God come on earth [as we pray it will, daily] , but few believe Jesus that it is not this earth ...

 

[oi_antz]

I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Don't get offended by this question. I don't know how else to put it into words. Thanks

Well there is evidence that we won't all get to heaven, some people are not fit for a place in a holy society, they must have their own society outside of heaven. Jesus paid the price for each one of us to be freed from sin, and if we each get to meet God once in our lives we will know Him and accept Him. I don't think our lives end when we die, and I think hell is a state of mind we are in when under God's wrath or withdrawn from His love. Hell and fire is the opposite of knowing God's love and we may literally cry out for God to speak to us! But refusal to surrender 1 thing that God has placed on our heart and we are trying to box God into our own shape.

God is perfection!

 

[Christos Anesti]

It would be highly unlikely that after three days of non-cardiac function, the wounds would still be oozing blood. Especially since it is likely that Jesus bled to death.

That the Lord still had a functioning body seems to point to the fact that some mysterious change took place with it. The fact that it could "demateriallize" and then appear where ever He wanted it seems to point to a certain differnce in the nature of His body at that time as well. I don't think an earthly corruptible body would be doing too well if didn't have any blood.

If I must carry the scars from all my fleshly wounds throughout eternity

I didn't mean to imply that you would. I have no idea what your ressurection body will look like. One of the reasons Christ retained the scars on His was most likely pedagogical too. He wanted to teach that Apostles that it was actually Him and not a ghost. That it was the same Person who was crucified and not another, etc.

 

[stranger]

That the Lord still had a functioning body seems to point to the fact that some mysterious change took place with it. The fact that it could "demateriallize" and then appear where ever He wanted it seems to point to a certain differnce in the nature of His body at that time as well. I don't think an earthly corruptible body would be doing too well if didn't have any blood.



I didn't mean to imply that you would. I have no idea what your ressurection body will look like. One of the reasons Christ retained the scars on His was most likely pedagogical too. He wanted to teach that Apostles that it was actually Him and not a ghost. That it was the same Person who was crucified and not another, etc.

That the Lord still had a functioning body seems to point to the fact that some mysterious change took place with it. The fact that it could "demateriallize" and then appear where ever He wanted it seems to point to a certain differnce in the nature of His body at that time as well. I don't think an earthly corruptible body would be doing too well if didn't have any blood.

I didn't mean to imply that you would. I have no idea what your ressurection body will look like. One of the reasons Christ retained the scars on His was most likely pedagogical too. He wanted to teach that Apostles that it was actually Him and not a ghost. That it was the same Person who was crucified and not another, etc.

It is the spirit from God that animates a body , and indeed spirit is immaterial and time-less ... resurrection only appears to be miraculous because we are unfamiliar with it, but translation to spirit would appear even more so... it is simply a matter that folks find it hard to believe the unfamiliar ...

one either accepts the witness of others who have seen these things or not, until one is resurrected oneself or witnesses an even rarer translation to spirit ... there is no way around this

 

[Evergreen48]

That the Lord still had a functioning body seems to point to the fact that some mysterious change took place with it.

It was not a common place thing that a person should be dead 3 days and then come back to life again. So, yes, the whole 'affair' was quite mysterious, though I prefer the word 'miraculous' over the word 'mysterious' to describe it.

The fact that it could "demateriallize" and then appear where ever He wanted it seems to point to a certain differnce in the nature of His body at that time as well.

I doubt Jesus dematerialized and then appeared again. (though He could have if He wanted to, as nothing is impossible with God.) I believe it was more the case that in each of the occurences where one might think this was being said, it was a case of His being there all the time, but their eyes were 'holden' and they could not see Him until the 'blinders' were removed. (check Luke 24:28-40.)

I don't think an earthly corruptible body would be doing too well if didn't have any blood.

I agree. But bone marrow produces blood. Do you doubt that this could have ocurred as rapidly as God wanted it to, once He had brought Jesus back from the dead?

I didn't mean to imply that you would. I have no idea what your ressurection body will look like.

Neither do I. But I know it will look like His.

1 John 3: 2. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

So, if Jesus' scars showed up on His spiritual body, so will mine and yours and anyone else who has a spiritual body.

One of the reasons Christ retained the scars on His was most likely pedagogical too. He wanted to teach that Apostles that it was actually Him and not a ghost. That it was the same Person who was crucified and not another, etc.

While I appreciate your opinion on this, I must say that I do not believe that He would have had to retain the scars to convince His disciples that it was not a ghost they were seeing. If He could open their understanding to what the Psalms and the prophets wrote of Him, He would have had no problem opening their understanding to the fact that He had been resurrected from the dead.

I think our discussion is slightly off topic. Would you care to start a thread on this subject? If not, I will have to end this discussion with you.

 

[stranger]

"What do I own that could be given in exchange for my soul?"

Your love, it is the only thing God values,.. and commands of all who follow Christ,,, and many lost their lives [souls] for it already ... there is nothing else on earth worth losing one's soul over ...

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

but most don't understand the scripture, that the soul is created by the spirit animating the body, the soul is its life then and the soul [life] ends when the spirit returns to God at death... thus the spirit is the means of resurrection, can create a new soul in a new body ...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then [at death] shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[ie the soul is created by the spirit, it does not exist without the spirit , does not exist in death, so it is the life of a body]

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

James 2:26 ... the body without the spirit is dead ...

 

[Gareth]

Most of us know the Lord's Prayer off by heart. It is one of the most recognisable passages of Scripture we can read. It reveals God's purpose for us all. Does it ever say we are praying to go to heaven at all? Recite it in your heart. God has a purpose to be fulfilled in two places. The Bible confirms that the earth we live on was created for a purpose (Isa.45:18) and that purpose is ongoing. What troubles many is the increasing violence caused by other people and nations and other aspects of being imperfect. Add the Devil and his demons to the mix and no wonder some want to escape from this world. Yet to go to heaven we have to give up our bodies. We have to endure until we die. Flesh and blood bodies do not exist in heaven only spirit ones do.

If our feelings are becoming agitated about living here on the earth, there is a danger of us shipwrecking our faith, because, it seems to us that God is being slow about doing something about the situation. Never allow our faith to weaken so as we stumble from our path. The Bible contains all what we need to exist spiritually which in turn helps us to cope with what we have to live with now. Our Creator has a reason for why we seemingly are waiting for something to happen. Why we don't know the exact time He will act, we must have faith there is a reason for it.

 

[agape101]

I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Don't get offended by this question. I don't know how else to put it into words. Thanks

the last enemy to be abolished is death; all are made alive, everything is subjected to the son then to the father and God becomes all in all.

It does happen.

God is the savior of all mankind. It just doesn't happen in this age or the age to come.... separation of the dead in the second death is temporary just like the first death is. Anyone who would wish to tell you that sin, death, satan, and evil last as long as God does is horribly mislead....

 

[agape101]

I'm a Christian but this has bothered me all my life. If God loves us all and wants us all to go to Heaven and to be saved, and if He is all powerful why did he make Hell? Why did he have to make his son suffer?

Don't get offended by this question. I don't know how else to put it into words. Thanks

AND- it bothers you because deep down you know it can't be true that a creator whom we call "abba" (daddy) would make a place to torture his creation forever. it takes many years of having to callous yourself to be able to regurgitate such a horrible doctrine. Paul- who wrote about half of the NT never mentions "hell;" he does mention, however, that God is the savior of all mankind, and that through the deed of christ on the cross, all shall be made alive... but each in his own order...

 

[agape101]

The reason is because sin cannot go unpunished. The wages of sin is death. Its a natural law just like the law of gravity. That is just what sin is. Imagine, after man sinned thorns and thistles began growing. Sin is just so powerful. God has to deal with our sin problem. There is no hell existing right now except the grave. But for those who do not allow God to handle their sin problem they will have to pay for it in the Lake of fire.

At least you understand the first death. but, the same way the first death is temporary, so is the second. "the last enemy to be abolished is death..." after this all are made alive.

Tradition tells us that once a man dies he either goes to heaven or hell. But what about the great white throne judgment? has Cain been tortured in hellfire for thousands of years only to be brought up for judgment? then told he must go back down there to be tortured evermore? how ridiculous a notion. at least we can question these teachings without fear of being killed these days...

 

[agape101]

Well these are things we know that can help shape an answer to that question...

-God is all-loving
-God is just
-God is holy
-People are sinful
-Holiness to sin is like light to darkness

God created us all to have a relationship with Him but as soon as sin entered the world, that could not happen anymore. We became a people born into sin and unable anymore to be in relationship with a holy, sinless God. And God set sin on a course to be destroyed eternally but also provided a way for people to be free from sin's bondage and to have a relationship with Him.

The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. So the purpose of hell was so that sin would be destroyed and Jesus had to die because death was the only way that payment could be made for sin.

Those that go to hell are going because they did not choose to accept the gift of salvation that was offered to them. And it's not as if they're going unjustly or unfairly. They're going because they chose sin, which is destined for eternal destruction, over God. C.S. Lewis actually said that the gates of hell would be locked from the inside, meaning that people are there because they chose to be. There is no one going there that doesn't deserve it. And that's where you see the beauty of grace--everyone that will be in heaven also deserves hell.

It's a good thing that C.S. Lewis is not God then...


Jesus paid the penalty of sin by dying, not being tortured forever. if the wages of sin is death then then so be it. If the wages of sin is eternal damnation then Jesus paid for nothing.

btw- Having to do something to accept God's grace is mutually exclusive with the definition of grace. If i understand that He has saved me irrespective of my doing anything, then it can be grace.

 

[agape101]

Well these are things we know that can help shape an answer to that question...

-God is all-loving
-God is just
-God is holy
-People are sinful
-Holiness to sin is like light to darkness

So, God is love...., even when He's having you tortured forever?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

At least you understand the first death. but, the same way the first death is temporary, so is the second. "the last enemy to be abolished is death..." after this all are made alive.

Tradition tells us that once a man dies he either goes to heaven or hell. But what about the great white throne judgment? has Cain been tortured in hellfire for thousands of years only to be brought up for judgment? then told he must go back down there to be tortured evermore? how ridiculous a notion. at least we can question these teachings without fear of being killed these days...

The second death is temporary in terms of time but its effects are permanent.Whoever dies in the second death is dead forever. The fact that it is a death means that the process of dying cannot be eternal or else there can be no process of dying. But those dead ones will never be resurrected again. The bible speaks of no third resurrection. Are we in agreement?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

It's a good thing that C.S. Lewis is not God then...


Jesus paid the penalty of sin by dying, not being tortured forever. if the wages of sin is death then then so be it. If the wages of sin is eternal damnation then Jesus paid for nothing.

That is a very good point. If the penalty for sin was eternal torment then Jesus didn't pay for our sin because he was not tormented forever. Reps for you.