Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

[razzelflabben]

all sinners are non-believers :-
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but that isn't what I said...so moving on to find out the point you want to make

all men are released from hell, Jesus has the key, not Satan :-

only those that believe have the remedy for sin.

Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


... 'angels' are merely messengers of God , indistinguishable from men :-

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

actually there are two kinds of angels described in scripture, (I always get them backwards, so hopefully that isn't too much a stumbling block for you) the Seraphim and the Cheribime...the Seraphim were described as the firy ones. Presumably because of the fire or appearance of fire that "clothes" them...The Cherabim were the many winged ones and I do believe they also are said to have a face on every side, they are also the ones that adorn the ark of the covenant, the mercy seat of God. If you're interested, we can look up passages. Angels can come to man "unaware", but the only two described in scripture, are above.

there are good and evil messages from God ,but no such thing as a 'fallen' messenger , all God's messages are relevant , pertinent, important ... none less or more than any other

actually, the fallen one's seem to refer to the angels that were cast out of heaven with Lucifer. 1/3 of the angels followed Lucifer, and were cast out of heaven, hell was created for them, but will be used for the nonbelievers. Look at this passage.
2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

and
Matthew 25
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

just judgment is not evil, I hope you aren't trying to say it is.

that Satan falls to the earth simply represents his transition from covering cherub to mortal man so that his pride can be dented by suffering death for his blasphemy... God simply proving to him that he is no god ...[Ezek 28, Isaiah 14]

hum, I must not be following what you are intending to say, the end of Ezekial 28 says...16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "



and Isaiah 14 says

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.



Neither of which say it is figurative, which is what you appear to be saying...I think if we take it as figurative then Lucifer also must be figurative as does sin and that creates some huge problems for the totality of scripture. It is only when we understand sin and Lucifer as real, not figurative, does Jesus death and resurrection have purpose.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Lucifer is a bad translation. Those verses are not talking about satan but rather about a man [namely the king of babylon] who once was considered a great man and became a tyrant and was killed.

The other verses also refer to a man, neither refers to satan. The term cherub is figurative as is most prophecy the whole thing in both cases is the fortelling of the downfall of a ruler, a man, not an angel, not satan, not a cherub.

 

[martymonster]

Has anyone mentioned that hell was created for fallen angels, but will be used for nonbelievers?

Hi razzelfabben!


Actually Hell is an unscriptural word used to support an unscriptural doctrine.

Have you ever wondered what water baptism is a a type for?

The lake of fire baptism!

 

[razzelflabben]

Lucifer is a bad translation. Those verses are not talking about satan but rather about a man [namely the king of babylon] who once was considered a great man and became a tyrant and was killed.

I have heard this argument before, but what it lacks is evidence. consider Strong's literal translation of the word

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon


Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon


In addition, other passages were added to the post that show a clearer meaning...in fact, when I do a keyword search, only one passage comes up with the name lucifer, but several for satan and devil as well as angels, we also have nephalim, in fact, when we compare Strongs literal translation with the translation for lucifer, it seems funny they are so close in meaning if they are totally different things. Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon


I mean, really, you can believe what you want, but a study of it, is pretty convincing. Also check this out...Nephilim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The other verses also refer to a man, neither refers to satan. The term cherub is figurative as is most prophecy the whole thing in both cases is the fortelling of the downfall of a ruler, a man, not an angel, not satan, not a cherub.

Rev. 12
Jude 1: 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



Is yet another passage that supports what I said before...so why not deal with the comment I made about hells original purpose rather than off on this tangent? Just curious....

 

[razzelflabben]

Hi razzelfabben!


Actually Hell is an unscriptural word used to support an unscriptural doctrine.

if hell is an unscriptural word, why when I type it into a keyword search do I get 3 pages of biblical references? Again, note strongs Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Have you ever wondered what water baptism is a a type for?

water baptism is a very huge part of my current church affiliation in that we are currently worshiping in an anibaptist body...so I think about it a lot, and take my understanding right from scripture.

The lake of fire baptism!

what about it? What are you trying to say here?

 

[Soul Searcher]

I have heard this argument before, but what it lacks is evidence. consider Strong's literal translation of the word

Consider that the word lucifer is Latin, it is held over from the latin translation that was translated to English and later when they went back to the hebrew and translated that to english they left the latin word lucifer in the text. This is an error and apparently was known to be an error but the fictious story of Lucifer had apparently already taken a life of it's own.

Read the chapter and you will see that there is absolutely no mention of satan, it is referring to the king of babylon and right after this word appears it specifically says is this the "man" ... it is quite clear that it refers to a man and not a perfect nor fallen angel.

Is yet another passage that supports what I said before...so why not deal with the comment I made about hells original purpose rather than off on this tangent? Just curious....

As for the original purpose of hell, the word is mistranslated as well several words some meaning different things are translated as hell and cause great confusion. In short there is no such thing as "hell" so it has no original purpose beyond scaring the congregation into toeing the line preached by whatever church preaches this false doctorine.

Also do not forget that if we consider the word hell to be an accurate translation and literal then we must also acknowledge that the bible clearly says "hell shall give up it's dead and then hell will be destroyed' so even if we take the bad translation and do so literalty we are still left with the bible telling us that hell is not eternal.

 

[Soul Searcher]

What are you trying to say here?

Remember where John the Baptist says that the one who comes after him will baptize them with fire and the holy ghost?

 

[razzelflabben]

Consider that the word lucifer is Latin, it is held over from the latin translation that was translated to English and later when they went back to the hebrew and translated that to english they left the latin word lucifer in the text. This is an error and apparently was known to be an error but the fictious story of Lucifer had apparently already taken a life of it's own.

Read the chapter and you will see that there is absolutely no mention of satan, it is referring to the king of babylon and right after this word appears it specifically says is this the "man" ... it is quite clear that it refers to a man and not a perfect nor fallen angel.

nothing here is convincing, especially without evidence...present some evidence to study on and we are off and running. as to the "man" word, again, you are relying on one passage out of two...do an in depth look at the word used here Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

As for the original purpose of hell, the word is mistranslated as well several words some meaning different things are translated as hell and cause great confusion. In short there is no such thing as "hell" so it has no original purpose beyond scaring the congregation into toeing the line preached by whatever church preaches this false doctorine.

I'll take scripture over scare tactics anyday and I showed the translation, now you can make a valid argument that it could be figurative, but that is isn't scriptural, would just plain be...well...let's just say, not true. It is there, you could even argue what it means, but to say the teaching isn't there, well, that is a different matter altogether.

Also do not forget that if we consider the word hell to be an accurate translation and literal then we must also acknowledge that the bible clearly says "hell shall give up it's dead and then hell will be destroyed' so even if we take the bad translation and do so literalty we are still left with the bible telling us that hell is not eternal.

actual, the bible teaches about hell and hades/grave both, which might be where you are getting confused.

 

[razzelflabben]

Remember where John the Baptist says that the one who comes after him will baptize them with fire and the holy ghost?

yep...nothing about hell, but carry on...what is your point.

 

[martymonster]

if hell is an unscriptural word, why when I type it into a keyword search do I get 3 pages of biblical references? Again, note strongs Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon water baptism is a very huge part of my current church affiliation in that we are currently worshiping in an anibaptist body...so I think about it a lot, and take my understanding right from scripture. what about it? What are you trying to say here?

Hell is a mistranslated word in the bible, one of which you already quote which is this one.


2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare sinning angels, but delivered them to chains of darkness, thrust down into Tartarus, having been kept to judgment;


Other translations have it as "gloomy darkness.

The angels mentioned here are not angelic spirit beings, the word angels means messengers which in this case is men.
Darkness in scripture always means spiritual blindness and ignorance.
chains means that these men can't repent because they a deceived and don't know that they need repentance and cannot cease from doing evil or in this case speaking perverse things about God.


The other words translated Hell are Sheol which mean's grave, Gehenna which is a rubbish dump on the out skirts of Jerusalem and Hades which is the Greek equivalent of Sheol, the grave.

Now about the baptism thing.

Water baptism is merely a type!

Baptism symbolizes dying with Christ and being raised with Him in newness of life and to understand what that means you have to understand what it means to be dead and be raised from it in the first place.


The question then is what does it mean to be dead and who is that is dead.


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.


Christ does not consider physical death death at all because as far as He is concerned it is only a type, as all physical things are.

The bible is a spiritual book and deals with spiritual things, when it talks about death don't think physical death or you'll miss whats being said.

So that is the first kind of death, being spiritually dead and We are all born spiritually dead.
When Christ makes that statement about let the dead bury their dead that's what He's talking about.

So that's the first kind of death now lets have a look at the second kind of death.


Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


There you go that is the second kind of death right there.
Everyone must go through two deaths to have life, that is just the way God has planned it.

Our old man who is spiritually dead that We all are being born into this world must destroyed So that the new man which is Christ can be born in us.

This baptism must and will happen to every man, woman and child who has ever lived on this planet and all will given life through this fiery baptism in the lake of fire.


Mat 3:10 But already the axe is even laid at the root of the trees; therefore, any tree not bringing forth good fruit is cut off and is thrown into fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you in water to repentance; but He who is coming after me is stronger than me, of whom I am not able to lift The sandals. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire,
Mat 3:12 whose fan is in His hand, and He will cleanse His floor and will gather His wheat into the storehouse. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Fire in the scripture is and always has been symbolic for God and His word.


Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.


Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.


The lake of fire which is the second death is the death of the old man.
Our old man goes into the lake of fire but He doesn't come out again only the new man which Christ which is when He will be all in all.

The Lake of fire are the word of Christ and this is where this baptism takes place and it is through this second death that the vast majority of mankind is given the mind of Christ which is life.


Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Soul Searcher]

nothing here is convincing, especially without evidence...present some evidence to study on and we are off and running. as to the "man" word, again, you are relying on one passage out of two...do an in depth look at the word used here Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Actually I am relying on the context of the entire chapter. It is crystal clear that it refers to a man and knowing that the word Lucifer does nto occur in the original nor is it an English word but a Latin one carried over from an errant latin translation it becomes even more clear that once should discard common "Lucifer" interpretation

As for Lexicon's in general they are useful but they can also be missleading as they attempt to define the word as they think the word is used in the bible rather than what the work may really mean. You will also notice that they list king of babylon in thier definition making it seem that they too know that this refers to the king of babylon as well as the word being related to light. It is not the name of satan nor the non existant perfect being that many say satan once was.

One more thing related, if you read the NT you will see Jesus say that satan was a liar and a murder from the begining. He does not say that satan was a perfect angel who fell from grace and became evil but that he was evil from the begining. Was Jesus telling a lie or is the whole Lucfier thing nothing more than an error or a hoax.

I'll take scripture over scare tactics anyday and I showed the translation, now you can make a valid argument that it could be figurative, but that is isn't scriptural, would just plain be...well...let's just say, not true. It is there, you could even argue what it means, but to say the teaching isn't there, well, that is a different matter altogether.actual, the bible teaches about hell and hades/grave both, which might be where you are getting confused.

Hades is translated as hell, sheoul is translated as hell, tarterous is translated as hell, gehenna is translated as hell. The source of the word Hell is closely related to Hel which is a word with 2 meaning just like Hades. One meaning being that of the proper name for a God/Goddess and the other being the place of the dead. Sheoul also refers to the place of the dead as does the grave. Gehenna has a totally different meaning, literaly a physical location that the Jews knew all to well. Tarterous has yet a different meaning being the place were the Titans were imprisoned in the Greek myths.

In modern terms hell is more closely related to the lake of fire [which btw is where the bible tells us hell will be thrown after it gives up the dead] It does not even begin to resemble what it meant at the time it was written nor is it even remotely close to hades nor sheoul in it modern usage. It has grown into a new mythological place where people are tortured for all eternity for not believing a certian way.

Of course you will believe what you want to believe but I am sure that it you were to read the chapter in Is. without first knowing the Lucifer myth you would not even begin to come away with anything related to satan in that text. BTW the word has been removed from many translations as it should not be there. Since you have been told the lucifer myth and apparently believe it then you may have trouble seeing the truth of it but still if you carefully read the entire chapter with an open mind you will see that it makes no mention of satan at anytime.

 

[stranger]

Lucifer is a bad translation. Those verses are not talking about satan but rather about a man [namely the king of babylon] who once was considered a great man and became a tyrant and was killed.

The other verses also refer to a man, neither refers to satan. The term cherub is figurative as is most prophecy the whole thing in both cases is the fortelling of the downfall of a ruler, a man, not an angel, not satan, not a cherub.

Hmmm... I think you'll find that it says he was in the garden of Eden... that rather clarifies that it is the serpent, Satan ...

... walking in the stones of fire ... not something men of this world do much of I think... and we know Satan is cast down from heaven to thus die in the earth [for blasphemy]

We know too that Satan was a son of God , perfect [giver of light?] until sin is found in him and he is cast into the earth [a physical realm] as a man :-

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

So onsider Jesus standing at the right hand of God in the place of the right-hand cherub ... and consider that the two cherubs are identical to look at , and that the final antichrist , Satan, fools the whole world that he is the image of God, the Christ [Rev 13:3-10] so is indeed of the tribe of Judah [else Jews would not accept him]

then it becomes more clear why it says this is the cherub that covers the throne... the left -had [sinister] one... but seriously no king on earth fits ALL the description in Ezek 28 and Isaiah 14 except this manifestation of Satan as the antichrist , and he does indeed rule the earth ,albeit extremely suddenly coming to power... and reigning over all the world only three and a half years before Jesus returns and strangers[to Israel] kill him for he admits his blasphemy finally 2Thess 2:4 ...God's trap for him in his pride , which involves the strong delusion of almost everyone on earth , to justly kil the biggest obstacle to mankind's salvation and lock him away in death for a thousand years whilst the kingdom is readied for the masses resurrected later for salvation of the many [Rev 7:9-10] :-

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[stranger]

all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but that isn't what I said...so moving on to find out the point you want to make only those that believe have the remedy for sin.

Rather, only those that believe the truth and act on it and love God and thus all men , even their enemies, stopping being unloving, stopping sinning,are saved [by translation to spirit]

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

actually there are two kinds of angels described in scripture, (I always get them backwards, so hopefully that isn't too much a stumbling block for you) the Seraphim and the Cheribime...the Seraphim were described as the firy ones. Presumably because of the fire or appearance of fire that "clothes" them...The Cherabim were the many winged ones and I do believe they also are said to have a face on every side, they are also the ones that adorn the ark of the covenant, the mercy seat of God. If you're interested, we can look up passages. Angels can come to man "unaware", but the only two described in scripture, are above. actually, the fallen one's seem to refer to the angels that were cast out of heaven with Lucifer. 1/3 of the angels followed Lucifer, and were cast out of heaven, hell was created for them, but will be used for the nonbelievers. Look at this passage.
2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

and
Matthew 25
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." just judgment is not evil, I hope you aren't trying to say it is. hum, I must not be following what you are intending to say, the end of Ezekial 28 says...16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "

and Isaiah 14 says

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Neither of which say it is figurative, which is what you appear to be saying...I think if we take it as figurative then Lucifer also must be figurative as does sin and that creates some huge problems for the totality of scripture. It is only when we understand sin and Lucifer as real, not figurative, does Jesus death and resurrection have purpose.

Well, there are many messengers of God , not just seraphim and cherubim ... and they are 'real' enough ,just as much as you or I, when they manifest in the physical... for instance Jesus stands at the right hand of God where the right-hand covering cherub stands... there are not two figures there ...

the words translated 'angels' simply means 'messengers' ... it would save much confusion if there were not the transliterated version of the word too...

Satan cast into the earth with his messengers ? I don't see how anyone can deny their 'reality' in the physical realm, but they are not 'fallen' they are CAST out , they did not fall by accident, God throws them out for a very important purpose, the beginning of the humbling of Satan [first the proof that whilst he can rule the world by lies and deceit, he cannot save his own life, that he is not a god despite that he thinks he is 2Thess 2:4 , Ezek 18, Isaiah 14]

 

[PROPHECYKID]

what is the verse that says - i have decided to deliver up such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his soul might be saved in the day of the lord. something like that. But the gist is that something that is destroyed by God can be restored as a new creation. If we are to gain a new incorruptible body aren't I to assume the old one will be destroyed? If your premise is that a thing that is destroyed cannot be restored I disagree.

No such verse exists but it will be good if you can prove me wrong.

 

[martymonster]

No such verse exists but it will be good if you can prove me wrong.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.


It's a good passage that one.

 

[razzelflabben]

Hell is a mistranslated word in the bible, one of which you already quote which is this one.


2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare sinning angels, but delivered them to chains of darkness, thrust down into Tartarus, having been kept to judgment;


Other translations have it as "gloomy darkness.

The angels mentioned here are not angelic spirit beings, the word angels means messengers which in this case is men.

well since scripture calls angels messengers of God, your gonna have to evidence the sudden change in intended meaning. Thanks.

Darkness in scripture always means spiritual blindness and ignorance.
chains means that these men can't repent because they a deceived and don't know that they need repentance and cannot cease from doing evil or in this case speaking perverse things about God.

wow, okay, you want to play this card, show the change in intended interpretation. evidence what you are twisting this to mean.

The other words translated Hell are Sheol which mean's grave, Gehenna which is a rubbish dump on the out skirts of Jerusalem and Hades which is the Greek equivalent of Sheol, the grave.

this I already said, so I'm not sure what you are going for here. How does this support your claims?

Now about the baptism thing.

Water baptism is merely a type!

Baptism symbolizes dying with Christ and being raised with Him in newness of life and to understand what that means you have to understand what it means to be dead and be raised from it in the first place.

no problem, I'm asking about your hell baptism idea.

The question then is what does it mean to be dead and who is that is dead.


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Mat 8:21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.


Christ does not consider physical death death at all because as far as He is concerned it is only a type, as all physical things are.

sounds like your talking about physical death vs. spiritual death, so far, so good.

The bible is a spiritual book and deals with spiritual things, when it talks about death don't think physical death or you'll miss whats being said.

amen...which is why I comment the way I do. But please, keep going, I still don't understand what you are trying to get at with the idea of a hell baptism

So that is the first kind of death, being spiritually dead and We are all born spiritually dead.
When Christ makes that statement about let the dead bury their dead that's what He's talking about.

So that's the first kind of death now lets have a look at the second kind of death.


Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


There you go that is the second kind of death right there.
Everyone must go through two deaths to have life, that is just the way God has planned it.

that isn't what I asked you....

Our old man who is spiritually dead that We all are being born into this world must destroyed So that the new man which is Christ can be born in us.

no problem, what I asked is an explanation as to what hell baptism you refer to is, not the spiritual life.

This baptism must and will happen to every man, woman and child who has ever lived on this planet and all will given life through this fiery baptism in the lake of fire.


Mat 3:10 But already the axe is even laid at the root of the trees; therefore, any tree not bringing forth good fruit is cut off and is thrown into fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you in water to repentance; but He who is coming after me is stronger than me, of whom I am not able to lift The sandals. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire,
Mat 3:12 whose fan is in His hand, and He will cleanse His floor and will gather His wheat into the storehouse. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Fire in the scripture is and always has been symbolic for God and His word.


Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.


Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.


The lake of fire which is the second death is the death of the old man.

not necessarily. But then again, I asked you to show this sudden intended change of thought and you are just showing the same thing as was already stated.

Our old man goes into the lake of fire but He doesn't come out again only the new man which Christ which is when He will be all in all.

only if we accept Jesus as Lord, but then again, that is in this life, not the judgment day.

The Lake of fire are the word of Christ and this is where this baptism takes place and it is through this second death that the vast majority of mankind is given the mind of Christ which is life.

Okay, so how do you throw evil men into a word? Are you really suggesting that on judgment day, God will shove peoples heads into fire until they repent, then let them out, kind of like the movies where someone shoves someones face into water till they give up the info they have. Wow, what a dim view of God.

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Yep, judgment, not holding them down till they repent.

 

[razzelflabben]

Actually I am relying on the context of the entire chapter. It is crystal clear that it refers to a man and knowing that the word Lucifer does nto occur in the original nor is it an English word but a Latin one carried over from an errant latin translation it becomes even more clear that once should discard common "Lucifer" interpretation

I asked for evidence on that, but hey, moving on.

The chapter also has words in it that indication "non man" so let me ask you this, what if it is talking about both? What if the king is a figurative example of an angel? Hum

As for Lexicon's in general they are useful but they can also be missleading as they attempt to define the word as they think the word is used in the bible rather than what the work may really mean. You will also notice that they list king of babylon in thier definition making it seem that they too know that this refers to the king of babylon as well as the word being related to light. It is not the name of satan nor the non existant perfect being that many say satan once was.

see above, your missing a lot.

One more thing related, if you read the NT you will see Jesus say that satan was a liar and a murder from the begining. He does not say that satan was a perfect angel who fell from grace and became evil but that he was evil from the begining. Was Jesus telling a lie or is the whole Lucfier thing nothing more than an error or a hoax.

What is the beginning? The beginning of what?

Hades is translated as hell, sheoul is translated as hell, tarterous is translated as hell, gehenna is translated as hell. The source of the word Hell is closely related to Hel which is a word with 2 meaning just like Hades. One meaning being that of the proper name for a God/Goddess and the other being the place of the dead. Sheoul also refers to the place of the dead as does the grave. Gehenna has a totally different meaning, literaly a physical location that the Jews knew all to well. Tarterous has yet a different meaning being the place were the Titans were imprisoned in the Greek myths.

you know, all this, when it adds nothing of value to the discussion reminds me of a story a guy from church tells. He had just finished seminary and was talking with his grandmother. His grandmother asked him, do you believe...he said of course and she asked him again, do you believe. The point of the story is this, sometimes we can get so intellectual that we argue ourselves out of belief and into the wisdom of our own intellect. You seem to be doing just that. But keep going, maybe we can find something it all this that is relavent to the topic...

In modern terms hell is more closely related to the lake of fire [which btw is where the bible tells us hell will be thrown after it gives up the dead] It does not even begin to resemble what it meant at the time it was written nor is it even remotely close to hades nor sheoul in it modern usage. It has grown into a new mythological place where people are tortured for all eternity for not believing a certian way.

ah, so you are confusing hell with modern mythologies? Is that the problem here?

Of course you will believe what you want to believe but I am sure that it you were to read the chapter in Is. without first knowing the Lucifer myth you would not even begin to come away with anything related to satan in that text.

try again....

BTW the word has been removed from many translations as it should not be there. Since you have been told the lucifer myth and apparently believe it then you may have trouble seeing the truth of it but still if you carefully read the entire chapter with an open mind you will see that it makes no mention of satan at anytime.

I am currently in two interesting discussions, one on the trinity of God and the second on hell, what I find fascination about them is that both those that dismiss the trinity and those that dismiss hell, claim to have truth but fail to evidence that. Of those on both threads, the opposing side makes no claims other than scripture. Why do you think that is? Why would those that believe both the trinity and hell rely on scripture as the authority whereas those that believe the trinity doesn't exist and that hell doesn't exist, rely on their own intellectual understanding as authority? It's an interesting phenom....don't you think?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Hmmm... I think you'll find that it says he was in the garden of Eden... that rather clarifies that it is the serpent, Satan ...

The mention of garden of Eden does make some people think this but still that is not correct. Look the context. It is addressed to a man, when it says you were this and you were that the you refers to the man to whom it is being addressed i.e. the king rather than satan. I know it is a long held and widely believed myth but the fact is that is all there is to it. The Lucifer myth is not support by the bible without using verses out of context.

 

[razzelflabben]

Rather, only those that believe the truth and act on it and love God and thus all men , even their enemies, stopping being unloving, stopping sinning,are saved [by translation to spirit]

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

I have no clue how this relates to anything I said.

Well, there are many messengers of God , not just seraphim and cherubim ... and they are 'real' enough ,just as much as you or I, when they manifest in the physical... for instance Jesus stands at the right hand of God where the right-hand covering cherub stands... there are not two figures there ...

the words translated 'angels' simply means 'messengers' ... it would save much confusion if there were not the transliterated version of the word too...

Satan cast into the earth with his messengers ? I don't see how anyone can deny their 'reality' in the physical realm, but they are not 'fallen' they are CAST out , they did not fall by accident,

I don't think fall only means accident, in fact fall can mean both and can also mean fall from grace.

God throws them out for a very important purpose, the beginning of the humbling of Satan [first the proof that whilst he can rule the world by lies and deceit, he cannot save his own life, that he is not a god despite that he thinks he is 2Thess 2:4 , Ezek 18, Isaiah 14]

 

[Soul Searcher]

I asked for evidence on that, but hey, moving on.

read the chapter. The bible is clear. There is no mention of satan there.

The chapter also has words in it that indication "non man" so let me ask you this, what if it is talking about both? What if the king is a figurative example of an angel?

That is a big strech. It is not about an angel it is about the king and his fall to the grave.

Hum see above, your missing a lot. What is the beginning? The beginning of what?

Come on, surely you are not that confused here. Since the begining as defined by the bible. e.g. In the begining God created .... In other words it means he was always, from day one, from the begining, he was never anything else. Your Lucifer myth contradicts Jesus himself. It is in error and the bible proves it. All the evidence you need is there you just have to be willing to see what is really there rather than the myth that comes from the John Milton peom of Paradise Lost.

But enough of this, you do not seem to be interested in seeing the truth so I will leave you to your myth.