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Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

agape101

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Dear capuano231. God loves us, and God wants us ALL in Heaven. Adam and Eve lived, were with God in the Garden of Eden, they were good and without sin. But when the Tempter came, in the guise of the Serpent, they believed his lies, and did not trust and love God enough, and ate of the tree of Knowledge. They were not innocent anymore, and because God loves us, they, and all who came after, were send to Earth to learn to love God with heart, soul and mind, and to learn to resist all temptation. To start with, we needed a Saviour, to pay God`s Holy Law, and to help and guide us back to God our Heavenly Father, again. Jesus God-Son died that we might live, Jesus reconciled us to God. Jesus also told us to REPENT, to exchange our selfish and unloving character into loving God and loving each other. God gave us free will to choose to follow His Commandments to love selflessly, (loving advice) Or to follow our own will, go our own way, and learn the hard way. God is Love, capuano, but God`s Law of Justice will stand for eternity: We Will Reap What We Sow. Follow our Lord`s Commandments to love, Or end up without God`s Love or Light. I believe it will be a Place in Outer Darkness, which must be sheer hell. God is Love, and God will NOT FORCE ANYONE, we have free will to choose God`s Love, or go our own way. Imagine if Heaven was open for all Mankind, as we are now, how long would it take to become hell in Heaven, instead of hell on Earth? I say this humbly and with love, capuano. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.


no offense but, what a pathetic plan.... that's the best God can do? No responsibility over his own creation whatsoever? I take more responsibility for my cats than you seem to think God does over us.... So what- Jesus could potentially save none? This is a pathetic plan, without any purpose whatsoever....

I didn't choose to sin in Adam, did you? Nobody asked me if i would like to be born into sin and evil. If I have a "free will" where are my options? If there's some sort of agreement doesn't God have a contractual obligation to make me fully aware that if I don't choose Him he will have me tortured forever? If that is the end for me and God doesn't even make me fully aware of the consequences then it seems like He is allowing me to ignorantly fall off the cliff, so to speak. what would be the purpose in him hiding the full consequence from everyone then? Surely he is not wanting the majority of his creation to go to hell right? Where is He then? Where is the haste? Such an important thing and He leaves it up to you and me to go around preaching that there is a loving God who doesn't want to have to send them to hell forever but He is too busy to come tell them himself?

Surely that is not the Gospel...
 
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agape101

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The second death is temporary in terms of time but its effects are permanent.Whoever dies in the second death is dead forever. The fact that it is a death means that the process of dying cannot be eternal or else there can be no process of dying. But those dead ones will never be resurrected again. The bible speaks of no third resurrection. Are we in agreement?


No. If there are some who remain dead then that is death.... Paul says in 1st cor 15 that the last enemy being abolished is death. this is when the "end" comes- where all shall be made alive..., each in his own order.

Death is literally "nullified" here. It is evident that the vivification of all would render death void. the making alive of all nullifies death; nothing else.

Moreover, the vivification of all and the abolition of death is integral to God subsequently becoming All in all. All things are subjected to Him. It doesn't say that all things that haven't been annihilated are subjected to him, it says all... i don't believe God would consider 20% success rate a success- neither would I contend that that would be sufficient for God to claim being All in all.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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No. If there are some who remain dead then that is death.... Paul says in 1st cor 15 that the last enemy being abolished is death. this is when the "end" comes- where all shall be made alive..., each in his own order.

Death is literally "nullified" here. It is evident that the vivification of all would render death void. the making alive of all nullifies death; nothing else.

Moreover, the vivification of all and the abolition of death is integral to God subsequently becoming All in all. All things are subjected to Him. It doesn't say that all things that haven't been annihilated are subjected to him, it says all... i don't believe God would consider 20% success rate a success- neither would I contend that that would be sufficient for God to claim being All in all.

Death will be defeated meaning no one could ever die again. It does not mean that no one can remain dead. If the principle you are implying is correct then it must also go for the devil and his angels.
 
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stranger

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Death will be defeated meaning no one could ever die again. It does not mean that no one can remain dead. If the principle you are implying is correct then it must also go for the devil and his angels.

Indeed Jesus says that ALL creation will accept him in the end, and Satan is created , part of creation and made subject to death , just as Jesus was [Ezek 28, Isaiah 14]

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

If you believe you are saved by accepting Jesus , then what Jesus says here means Satan is eventually saved too ,[ albeit at the end of time ...]
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Indeed Jesus says that ALL creation will accept him in the end, and Satan is created , part of creation and made subject to death , just as Jesus was [Ezek 28, Isaiah 14]

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

If you believe you are saved by accepting Jesus , then what Jesus says here means Satan is eventually saved too ,[ albeit at the end of time ...]

Those verses include the living. The dead knee cannot bow. The devil is not going to be saved at all. The bible says that the broad road which many shall find will lead to destruction. Which means those on the broad road will be destroyed once they remain on that road. There is no coming back after the second death. There is no third resurrection in the bible.

Let me ask you a question. What was the first lie ever told in the bible?
 
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stranger

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Those verses include the living. The dead knee cannot bow.
That is not relevant since Jesus himself reveals that all are released from death and hell [hades] :-

Revelation 20:13 ....death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them ...

The devil is not going to be saved at all.

So YOU say [without evidence], but Jesus says all creation will be resurrected and will accept him as lord and so be saved , Satan was created, is part of creation... so will be saved

The bible says that the broad road which many shall find will lead to destruction. Which means those on the broad road will be destroyed once they remain on that road.

the many are indeed destroyed in the end of the earth and few find the narrow way by then of following Jesus [Matt 7:13-14] , so much for mass religion of the many then

but we know from Jesus that the many are resurrected to the kingdom and that they are freed from sin by death, and the many are later saved by their good works in the kingdom, wheras the few were saved by grace in this earth to be the kings and priests of the kingdom... simply use your head and ask who the few even could minister to and rule in the kingdom if not the many sinners of this earth later resurrected from hell to be judged by works after resurrection, freed from their sin in this life ...

There is no coming back after the second death. There is no third resurrection in the bible.

The salvation of all creation promised by Jesus requires a third resurrection once those who continue to sin in the new earth have yet once more been freed from sin by death , so you either believe Jesus on this or not ... that is who you are disputing with, not me

The wages of sin is only death , and the spirit is of God, not able to die any more than God can ... thus you do not understand that the essence of being is spirit, not life in the body... death is nothing but the resetting of life to free one from sin, it cannot affect the spirit ... the spirit of the evil and good returns to God who gave it , indeed there is no other way for the spirit of the unjust to be resurrected in the new earth kingdom ... the second death is no different, just later ... the bible makes no distinctions for the second death except that it is in the new earth ...

Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them
and they were judged every man according to their works.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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That is not relevant since Jesus himself reveals that all are released from death and hell [hades] :-

Revelation 20:13 ....death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them ...

And why are they resurrected? TO FACE THE SECOND DEATH.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


So YOU say [without evidence], but Jesus says all creation will be resurrected and will accept him as lord and so be saved , Satan was created, is part of creation... so will be saved

That is not what we read in revelation. Everyone will be resurrected to face judgement.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How then can you say that those who do not rise to the resurrection of life is going to live anyway. You are totally defying scripture.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

the many are indeed destroyed in the end of the earth and few find the narrow way by then of following Jesus [Matt 7:13-14] , so much for mass religion of the many then

but we know from Jesus that the many are resurrected to the kingdom and that they are freed from sin by death, and the many are later saved by their good works in the kingdom, wheras the few were saved by grace in this earth to be the kings and priests of the kingdom... simply use your head and ask who the few even could minister to and rule in the kingdom if not the many sinners of this earth later resurrected from hell to be judged by works after resurrection, freed from their sin in this life ...

The only time death is no longer an enemy is after the second death. Only those who rose in the first resurrection are free from the second death.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead i.e those who did not rise in the first resurrection LIVED NOT AGAIN until the thousand years are finished. These are the folks who will rise in the second resurrection on which the second death does have power.

The salvation of all creation promised by Jesus requires a third resurrection once those who continue to sin in the new earth have yet once more been freed from sin by death , so you either believe Jesus on this or not ... that is who you are disputing with, not me

There will be no sin in the new earth. There is no third resurrection. Because of your anti-biblical doctrine, you must say now that there is a third resurrection. THE BIBLE DOES NOT SPEAK OF A THIRD RESURRECTION. After the second death is the remaking of the heavens and earth and all sin will be removed. The earth will be made new.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

If your name is not written in the book of life then how can you get eternal life.

The wages of sin is only death , and the spirit is of God, not able to die any more than God can ... thus you do not understand that the essence of being is spirit, not life in the body... death is nothing but the resetting of life to free one from sin, it cannot affect the spirit ... the spirit of the evil and good returns to God who gave it , indeed there is no other way for the spirit of the unjust to be resurrected in the new earth kingdom ... the second death is no different, just later ... the bible makes no distinctions for the second death except that it is in the new earth ...

The spirit of God is the breath of life and there is alot of biblical evidence for this as you have been shown before. Man was made a living soul consisting of body and spirit. But in hell the soul is completely destroyed.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The body is killed in the first death and the spirit goes back to God. In the second death in the lake of fire, it is implied here that everything will be destroyed. All you are doing, sad to say, is what the devil did in the garden of Eden. God said you shall surely die, the devil said you shall NOT surely die. The bible says the second death but you still say that after the second death there is a third resurrection, which cannot be found NOWHERE and I repeat NOWHERE in the bible.
 
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Soul Searcher

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Another way of looking at the second death is that it is the death of sin. Let's not forget that the word translated torment means to test and the addition of brimstone implies to purify. None of us are spotless no matter what we believe and none of us are totally corrupted no matter what we believe. There is some good and some evil in everyone.

The bible indicates that the second death will not harm the righteous [note it does not say they will not be part of it]

Consider that this second death is the death of sin, that it purifies all who enter. Those who are pure [should any exist] would not be harmed in any way. Those who are not would have the sin, darkness, evil purged from them then what is left in all is only that which is righteous and will not be harmed in any way.

Keep in mind that the fire is figurative here and that the bible plainly says that we will be tried by fire, salted with fire, baptised by fire and saved as by fire.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Another way of looking at the second death is that it is the death of sin. Let's not forget that the word translated torment means to test and the addition of brimstone implies to purify. None of us are spotless no matter what we believe and none of us are totally corrupted no matter what we believe. There is some good and some evil in everyone.

The bible indicates that the second death will not harm the righteous [note it does not say they will not be part of it]

Consider that this second death is the death of sin, that it purifies all who enter. Those who are pure [should any exist] would not be harmed in any way. Those who are not would have the sin, darkness, evil purged from them then what is left in all is only that which is righteous and will not be harmed in any way.

Keep in mind that the fire is figurative here and that the bible plainly says that we will be tried by fire, salted with fire, baptised by fire and saved as by fire.

Yes that is another way of looking at it, but I believe it is the wrong way. The bible is clear enough to let us know that these fires are literal and also that no one is going to come back from this death.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

How is there even a resurrection from that. Its either one of two things. Its either one has everlasting life or perishes. The second death is why those who will perish will perish. No coming back after that. Both soul and body will be destroyed.
 
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stranger

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And why are they resurrected? TO FACE THE SECOND DEATH.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now that would be pointless, would it not, to resurrect folks just to kill them ...after they were freed from past sins by death ...
You are making no sense my friend...
and the bible says they are resurrected to judgement, but of course they are free from past sins having had the wages paid in death, so they are judged [fairly] on what they do in the kingdom after death...
Equally it is absurd to say they are not saved when we know few find the way in this life [matt 7:14, Jude 1:14. Rev 7:3-8] but many are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] ... the many later saved can only come from the many destroyed Matt 7:13 , not from the few who find the narrow way Matt 7:14, simply a matter of numbers , few is not countless many ...

So we know that of those resurrected sinners from this earth countless amny are not only freed from hell, but saved by works at [fair] judgement day of God, no-one is prejudged by their sin in this world as religionists claim to scare people into church here, it is straight scripture of Christ and the saints that shows religion already has this wrong, the prophesied apostasy already is here

That is not what we read in revelation. Everyone will be resurrected to face judgement.

and indeed they will face judgemnet but we know they were freed from sin by death, and are judged by works
, so they can only be judged by their righteousness or not in the kingdom of God ... Peter points out that righteousness is the norm in the kingdom , so indeed as Jesus states [Rev 7:910] the many are saved at this later time [of judgement day] ... else indeed there is no point in resurrection or judgment if they are judged at death at religionsts claim despite that Jesus says the opposite

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[By the way the word translated 'damnation' means 'judgement' , not pre-judging , God's judgement is fair and those wicked of this earth who are righteous in the kingdom are forgiven Ezek 18:20- ]

How then can you say that those who do not rise to the resurrection of life is going to live anyway. You are totally defying scripture.

No, it is you who are being misled by a rather poor translation of the original... God makes it clear in many othere scriptures that there is no pre-judgment of anyone in this earth, except that a few are made saints so that they can run the kingdom in the new earth when the many are resurrected who were sinners all this life here

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again the translation is very misleading and counter to other scriptures as it stands... the world translated 'everlasting' actually means lasting an age , which is a very different meaning ... we know there is a beginning and an end of time , so 'everlasting' is actually meaningless anyway , there is no 'infinity' of time , not in scripture, nor in Physics... Newton was proven wrong in his assumption decades ago , and scripture said he ws wrong long before he was born... but folks still believe init through bad habit and poor religious teachings of sinners ... the scripture though makes it clear that all creation will acept Jesus Christ, so there is no lasting contempt, it ends at the end of the age, as is the meaning of the original scroll, just sadly poorly mistranslated ...

The only time death is no longer an enemy is after the second death. Only those who rose in the first resurrection are free from the second death.

no death is any enemy any longer , Jesus said so... death frees man from bondage to the devil through sin ... the only other ways are grace or mercy of God and we know few find grace [Matt 7:14] but countless many are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] ... try to take it in, few are NOT countless many, few find the way in this life, the many are destroyed, but countless many are later saved... so you are not taking in the whole scripture which clarifies the mistranslations which have deceived you [and many others]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead i.e those who did not rise in the first resurrection LIVED NOT AGAIN until the thousand years are finished. These are the folks who will rise in the second resurrection on which the second death does have power.

Those of the first resurrection are indeed the few of Matt 7:14, the saints sealed by God under the new covenant in this earth and they are free of the second death because they are resurrected as necessary [for most died] and translated to spirit at Jesus' return... they are no longer required to prove anything to God, they have proved themselves in this life in baptism of 'fire' , trial of their love to the death

the many of teh second resurrection are judged on their works in the new earth kingdom to see if they have stopped sinning or not in the kingdom, and those who have sinned need to be freed of sin yet again in a second death , still the wages of sin is death, still death frees them from sin... but there is no need for a third death , life is so terrible for the wicked when there are no good folsk left to prey upon that the final trial ,the lake of 'fire' of God's truth about love , is enough to mke all Satan's followers desert him because evil no longer profits them when there is no easy prey left ... Satan is left alone and pathetic , and folsk stare at him and wonder that he ruled this earth, terrified nations into sin [Ezek 28, Isaiah 14] ,but God proves he is n god by his death and takes away his support by simply proving that evil doesn't benefit anyone , just seemed to do so when there was easy prey as in this world ... the prodigal son then too accepts Jesus, as Jesus states all creation will do in the end [and there is an end, not an everlasting of time] ... so why don't you believe what Jesus says, that all reation will accept him and so come to love ? [quoted above]

There will be no sin in the new earth. There is no third resurrection. Because of your anti-biblical doctrine, you must say now that there is a third resurrection. THE BIBLE DOES NOT SPEAK OF A THIRD RESURRECTION. After the second death is the remaking of the heavens and earth and all sin will be removed. The earth will be made new.

I have been quoting the scripture, so your accusation is nonsensical , so please reconsider your false witness ... you sin for no reason by it
I told you why Jesus' statements imply there must be a third resurrection, Satan and his close llies are part of creation and Jesus states that all creation will accept him [and so be saved in the end by enduring mercy of God]

As for there being no sin after the Millennium in the kingdom, that is not so, Satan himself is not resurrected, released from hell [hades] until after the Millenium and he immediately causes a war against the righteous :-

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

If your name is not written in the book of life then how can you get eternal life.

the scripture makes it clear that only those who are righteous remain in New Jerusalem in the kingdom of God , that the trial of the wicked is separated, outside ...the 'lake of fire'

an it si clear that few are written in the book of life in this world , but many are written in later [Rev 7:9-10] ... as Jesus states that all creation will accept him, we know that all will be written in at the end of time ... so it is only a question of when ... you read what isn't there because you listen to sinners and haven't studied and integrated all scripture before deciding what to believe... it is surely blind leading the blind if one has faith based upon sinners in preference to listening to all Jesus and the saints and prophets of God have had to say ... but it is clear that most will do the same in this life, as few find the strait narrow way before Jesus comes to take the few ...
ironically then , your own salvation depends upon your beliefs being wrong ... [since if you were a saint you would know all truth John 16:13 from God and not disagree with so much of scripture ]



The spirit of God is the breath of life and there is alot of biblical evidence for this as you have been shown before. Man was made a living soul consisting of body and spirit. But in hell the soul is completely destroyed.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The body is killed in the first death and the spirit goes back to God. In the second death in the lake of fire, it is implied here that everything will be destroyed. All you are doing, sad to say, is what the devil did in the garden of Eden. God said you shall surely die, the devil said you shall NOT surely die. The bible says the second death but you still say that after the second death there is a third resurrection, which cannot be found NOWHERE and I repeat NOWHERE in the bible.[/quote]
 
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Soul Searcher

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Yes that is another way of looking at it, but I believe it is the wrong way. The bible is clear enough to let us know that these fires are literal and also that no one is going to come back from this death.
You think so? I do not. The book of revelation plainly says that it is symbolic, all the instances I mentioned of fire, testing, salting, baptising and saved as are very clearly not literal. There is not doubt in my mind that this is figurative and should never be taken to be literal. Once you drop the literal understanding of it you will be on the right path to understanding what it actually refers to.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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stranger I am tempted to respond but I can that it will make no sense. Your very first line is just a mixture of misunderstanding by taking scripture out of context. You are using Romans 6 which talks about being freed from sin through death and applying it outside of its context. Paul was talking about being dead to self and therefore being alive in Christ. When one is alive in Christ he is free from the sins that would have enslaved him.


Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Paul is not talking about the second death so it makes sense to apply the text properly. I just hope you are not depending on the third resurrection to be saved or else you will be lost.
 
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You think so? I do not. The book of revelation plainly says that it is symbolic, all the instances I mentioned of fire, testing, salting, baptising and saved as are very clearly not literal. There is not doubt in my mind that this is figurative and should never be taken to be literal. Once you drop the literal understanding of it you will be on the right path to understanding what it actually refers to.

While I agree that the other fires are symbolic this one is literal because in the OT and the NT alike, everywhere it is spoken of it demonstrates that it is literal fire. Smoke, consumed, perish are just some of the words often used with this fire. It is literal. It will cause death. And it goes back to the first lie every told which was "You shall not surely die". God says second death but folks here are saying its a refining process. In other words, "You shall not surely die".
 
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stranger

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Another way of looking at the second death is that it is the death of sin. Let's not forget that the word translated torment means to test and the addition of brimstone implies to purify. None of us are spotless no matter what we believe and none of us are totally corrupted no matter what we believe. There is some good and some evil in everyone.

The bible indicates that the second death will not harm the righteous [note it does not say they will not be part of it]

Consider that this second death is the death of sin, that it purifies all who enter. Those who are pure [should any exist] would not be harmed in any way. Those who are not would have the sin, darkness, evil purged from them then what is left in all is only that which is righteous and will not be harmed in any way.

Keep in mind that the fire is figurative here and that the bible plainly says that we will be tried by fire, salted with fire, baptised by fire and saved as by fire.

The bible states that those who die are freed of sin, the wages of sin are paid by death ...

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

'eternal' life can only be a gift if God is certain that He has the means to persuade all to stop sinning , and indeed the bible explains how by up to two deaths freeing one from bands of sin all creation will accept Jesus and be saved as Jesus promises they will...

Thus there is nothing special about being freed from sin by the second death , the only special thing is the intensity of the proof of the failure of evil in the final trial [lake of 'fire'] ... consider who is left by then for the evil to prey upon, only the most evil of men ... one cannot gain anything by evil when trying to prey on those who prey just as much on you... God's rather neat and loving way of showing Satan and his closest allies that they made a mistake , and love is the only way to live well... Jesus writes the revelation that it works too... but one can only love in life and no-one can get to the third heaven [paradise of the spirit, time-less existence] until their love is perfected in trial, baptism of 'fire' ... the lake of fire then is simply the most intense trial of the hardest to convince, and the earlier salvation of the few was just to set up a perfet priesthood and rulers for the kingdom, the salvation at judgement day simply removing all the easy prey so that Satan and his ronies would be able to see their evil affecting themselves and not gaining but losing heavily from it ...

God has no need to go any further because living with the most evil is impossible for the most evil, they acnnot make it work, which is God's point about love, it works for everyone... one only needs to become loving to be saved, God holds no grudges about past sins one one learns for good ... and God ha the means to convince everyone , as Jesus points out all creation will accept him , eventually...

Thus one need not invent theories about the second death, it is just mortal death like the first, but later , to free those who continue to sin in the new earth, when the kingdom has come to all that ever lived ...
 
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PROPHECYKID

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The bible states that those who die are freed of sin, the wages of sin are paid by death ...

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

'eternal' life can only be a gift if God is certain that He has the means to persuade all to stop sinning , and indeed the bible explains how by up to two deaths freeing one from bands of sin all creation will accept Jesus and be saved as Jesus promises they will...

Thus there is nothing special about being freed from sin by the second death , the only special thing is the intensity of the proof of the failure of evil in the final trial [lake of 'fire'] ... consider who is left by then for the evil to prey upon, only the most evil of men ... one cannot gain anything by evil when trying to prey on those who prey just as much on you... God's rather neat and loving way of showing Satan and his closest allies that they made a mistake , and love is the only way to live well... Jesus writes the revelation that it works too... but one can only love in life and no-one can get to the third heaven [paradise of the spirit, time-less existence] until their love is perfected in trial, baptism of 'fire' ... the lake of fire then is simply the most intense trial of the hardest to convince, and the earlier salvation of the few was just to set up a perfet priesthood and rulers for the kingdom, the salvation at judgement day simply removing all the easy prey so that Satan and his ronies would be able to see their evil affecting themselves and not gaining but losing heavily from it ...

God has no need to go any further because living with the most evil is impossible for the most evil, they acnnot make it work, which is God's point about love, it works for everyone... one only needs to become loving to be saved, God holds no grudges about past sins one one learns for good ... and God ha the means to convince everyone , as Jesus points out all creation will accept him , eventually...

Thus one need not invent theories about the second death, it is just mortal death like the first, but later , to free those who continue to sin in the new earth, when the kingdom has come to all that ever lived ...

Man you need to seriously consider context. Don't just take one text out of a passage and apply it anywhere. Paul was not talking about physical death. Being dead to sin or dead to self is something which Paul talks about a few times in Romans. You have been made alive through Jesus so that you cannot serve sin. When you cannot serve sin you are dead to sin. Revelation on the other hand does not even imply anything to suggests that people will be coming back from the second death so your basis is really a misunderstanding of Paul.
 
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stranger

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stranger I am tempted to respond but I can that it will make no sense. Your very first line is just a mixture of misunderstanding by taking scripture out of context. You are using Romans 6 which talks about being freed from sin through death and applying it outside of its context. Paul was talking about being dead to self and therefore being alive in Christ. When one is alive in Christ he is free from the sins that would have enslaved him.


Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Paul is not talking about the second death so it makes sense to apply the text properly. I just hope you are not depending on the third resurrection to be saved or else you will be lost.

I still fail to see why you don't read what Jesus says and accept that no-one is lost in the end ... what is the point in your saying you believe him if you don't acept what he says here , where he clarifie this discussion beyond doubts you have from sinners you believe in his place ? :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

How do you explain that you won't accept Jesus' words here ?

I you do accept them then you will see that they imply that there must be a resurrection to life after the second death a no-one can repent and become righteous, accepting Jesus as he says, except the living ...

So just tell me why you don't accept these words of Jesus' revelation ...
 
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PROPHECYKID

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I still fail to see why you don't read what Jesus says and accept that no-one is lost in the end ... what is the point in your saying you believe him if you don't acept what he says here , where he clarifie this discussion beyond doubts you have from sinners you believe in his place ? :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

How do you explain that you won't accept Jesus' words here ?

I you do accept them then you will see that they imply that there must be a resurrection to life after the second death a no-one can repent and become righteous, accepting Jesus as he says, except the living ...

So just tell me why you don't accept these words of Jesus' revelation ...

Friend, please read the bible more closely. This scene in Revelation 5 comes from the happiness that someone was found worthy to open the book and loose the seals. In the very next chapter after the seals are opened this is what we see.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is the 6th seal which depicts the second coming of Christ. The scene in Rev 5 is obviously way before this ever happens. And in the 6th seal Jesus is ready to pour out his wrath on the wicked and they are hiding.

You are using that text in Rev 5, to say that in the end all creation will give glory to God when the time of Revelation 5 occurring is before the seven seals are even opened which is far from the end. Revelation 20 - 22 gives the CONCLUSION of the entire controversy of good and evil but you are looking for a conclusion of the battle in Revelation 5. This is faulty logic.
 
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While I agree that the other fires are symbolic this one is literal because in the OT and the NT alike, everywhere it is spoken of it demonstrates that it is literal fire. Smoke, consumed, perish are just some of the words often used with this fire. It is literal. It will cause death. And it goes back to the first lie every told which was "You shall not surely die". God says second death but folks here are saying its a refining process. In other words, "You shall not surely die".

When Paul wrote about judgment, he tells us that the work of everyman will be tried by fire, that he will gain reward or suffer loss but he will be saved as by fire.

Also again revelation is a symbolic book to think otherwise is an error.

As for "you shall not surely die" at this point you have already died so I do not see your point. Death is defeated, it exists no more but this is after you have surely died.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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When Paul wrote about judgment, he tells us that the work of everyman will be tried by fire, that he will gain reward or suffer loss but he will be saved as by fire.

Show me the text.

Also again revelation is a symbolic book to think otherwise is an error.

It doesn't mean that there is nothing literal in it. The new Jerusalem is literal, the seven last plagues will be literal. When Revelation uses symbols other parts of the bible decipher what those symbols mean. In the case of the lake of fire, it is everywhere in the bible so it being referenced in Revelation does not make it symbolic. You are going to use 1 or 2 scripture to interpret the 99 which proves the fire is literal. Good luck with that.

As for "you shall not surely die" at this point you have already died so I do not see your point. Death is defeated, it exists no more but this is after you have surely died.

I don't get your point here but my point was that death is death. Satan deceived Eve with the same lie that many people are believing here. That death does not really mean death but it is just a process to improve yourself. Well Satan told Eve that she wont die but her eyes will be opened and she will be like gods, just like you are saying we are tried in the fire in the second death to be improved and purified to enter heaven or something like that.
 
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Show me the text.
see 1 cor 3:10-15

It doesn't mean that there is nothing literal in it. The new Jerusalem is literal, the seven last plagues will be literal. When Revelation uses symbols other parts of the bible decipher what those symbols mean. In the case of the lake of fire, it is everywhere in the bible so it being referenced in Revelation does not make it symbolic. You are going to use 1 or 2 scripture to interpret the 99 which proves the fire is literal. Good luck with that.
Those things in revelation are not literal, as for the number of scriptures I am aware of two which speak of every man being judged by his works. Each mentions fire one is in revelation and the other in the verses noted above. When both are taken in context it would seem they are talking about the same thing and they show that the purpose of the fire is not to destroy the soul but to test and ultimately to save.

I don't get your point here but my point was that death is death. Satan deceived Eve with the same lie that many people are believing here. That death does not really mean death but it is just a process to improve yourself. Well Satan told Eve that she wont die but her eyes will be opened and she will be like gods, just like you are saying we are tried in the fire in the second death to be improved and purified to enter heaven or something like that.
That is Paul who says we shall be saved as by fire, that we shall suffer loss or gain reward but shall be saved.

We will die, no doubt about it so your twist of my words is flawed. The bible states that the wage of sin is death once we have died that wage is paid. Why on earth would you think God would raise us from the dead just to kill us again? That makes no sense at all.
 
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