Why Believers are not under the Old Covenant Law of Moses

[Kenny'sID]

Hope no one depending on the law for salvation is wearing linen and wool woven together.

Who here even hinted at trying to obey anything but the commandments?

That's a serous question, I may have missed it.

 

[bekkilyn]

Who here even hinted at trying to obey anything but the commandments?

That's a serous question, I may have missed it.

And that's the problem. If one is relying on following the law for salvation, then one needs to be following the *whole* law (perfectly) and not just the ten commandments so that there is not even a blemish of sin on you, from birth until death. (And hopefully you're also not hit with one of those "until the tenth generation" sort of things.) The ten commandments is only one part of the law and does not cover all of the requirements that God expected those under the law to obey.

 

[drjean]

I said: Yeshua FULFILLED the law, not changed. The law required (for any sin etc) a blood sacrifice and as most know, the sacrifice once a year as atonement for one's sins for the next year. This was done in looking forward to the Messiah to come, believing and trusting God's Word. Once Messiah came and became the ULTIMATE BLOOD ATONEMENT SACRIFICE, it was finished---the law was fulfilled and finished. He didn't change it, it finished it so that it was no longer necessary.

You said:

Please show me a prophecy that the Law/Torah will be changed. We have to have a foundation in the Tanakh in order to understand the "New Testament". Jesus can certainly "fulfill" the Law in that the Law pointed to Him, but that does not mean it is done away with or changed.

I believe you are referring to the Passover sacrifice. Understand that Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts (Passover, Unleavened Bread, and Shavout/Pentecost) during His first coming, but He has yet to fulfill the fall feasts. Those will be fulfilled upon His second coming/return.

Also, consider that Ezekiel 40-48 make it clear that the sacrifices, Feast Days, circumcision, and the Levitical priesthood will all be present in the future Temple, which has not been built yet.

Some noteworthy points about the Ezekiel 40-48 Temple are that:

1) the glory of God fills this temple (Ezekiel 44:4) (it is His dwelling place)
2) those who are uncircumcised in flesh or heart (regardless of whether they are a child of Israel or a foreigner) will not enter the temple (Ezekiel 44:9) (but of course, you can become circumcised in both heart and flesh and then enter the temple)
3) the Levitical priesthood will return (Ezekiel 44:10-31)
4) Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread is celebrated (Ezekiel 45:21)
5) the Festival of Tabernacles is celebrated (Ezekiel 45:25)
5) sacrifices/offerings will be done once again (Ezekiel 44:27-29, 45:17, 42:13-14, 42:22).

Remember that almost all of these verses I've quoted above are written as God's direct quotes to Ezekiel. God is literally saying these things directly to Ezekiel.

Please don't think that I'm saying that Jesus was not your ultimate sacrifice by which you are saved. That's not what I'm saying by quoting Ezekiel 40-48. You are saved by His sacrifice. In my opinion, if our sin is wiped away/forgiven, then we won't have to do sin offerings - but the nations apart from Israel (Israel includes Gentile believers) will. Instead, we will be allowed to make thanksgiving/peace offerings to God (Leviticus 3) in the the Temple described in Ezekiel 40-48.

Well now you see we are discussing different things in a way.... I was very clear that Jesus did not Change the law....

Now there will be those who want to keep the law, and will rebuild the temple and begin offering sacrifices during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation before the faux christ demands they worship him instead... and there will be those of us who are believers under grace saved through Christ's sacrifice and resurrection, who will not be around for the tribulation but taken out.

Yes indeed the temple will be (SOON) built--they have everything they need and have recently trained all the Levi priests. Yes indeed Christ fulfilled all the spring feasts and will fulfill the fall ones when He returns. But that is for the Jew, God's elect. Gentile and Messianic believers are His Bride. He promised not to take out His wrath upon His bride. The wrath of God is upon the nation of Israel for not keep jubilee... in fact the number of days God spells out for the tribulational period is an exacting for the number of jubilees the nation of Israel failed to keep. God is good that way.

Everything Yeshua did prior to His resurrection was for the Jew to believe. He kept the law. He fulfilled the law. He finished the law. The NT has a plethora of Paul's teachings regarding those who want to try and keep the law (with caveat that they will be judged by the law and will not be approved) and those who are under the New Covenant that Yeshua made with believers.
The letter to the Romans is one of those readings.

My question to you, if you choose, is just what did Jesus "finish" on the cross if not The Law?

The word tetelestai is quite specific. (Greek is you know, with words for every nuance of meaning, English can't hold a candle to it!) Here's a note about it being "finished".

..... The word occurs in John 19:28 and 19:30 and these are the only two places in the New Testament where it occurs. In 19:28 it is translated, “After this, when Jesus knew that all things were now completed, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled, he said, ‘I thirst.’” Two verses later, he utters the word himself: “Then when he received the sour wine Jesus said, ‘It is finished,’ ....

The word tetelestai was also written on business documents or receipts in New Testament times to show indicating that a bill had been paid in full. .....

The connection between receipts and what Christ accomplished would have been quite clear to John’s Greek-speaking readership; it would be unmistakable that Jesus Christ had died to pay for their sins.

What does the Greek word "tetelestai" mean?

There are many things both in OT and NT that are said to be forthcoming: it rarely says whether those things are right/wrong or good/bad. God telling Ezekiel of what would occur in what we now know as the end times is just that.

(i.e. Joel 2:28, Acts 2;17
"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.

In that we can assume that it's okay... but God has poured out His Spirit on those doing wrong as well, (i.e. And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
Exodus 9:12, John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them."

Deuteronomy 2:3 But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate,

and we see someone using God's power without "authority" in
Luke 9:49-50
"Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you.")

In recapitulation there are 2 points to ponder: Jesus finishing the law; God telling us what He, and what people would do in the end times.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

And that's the problem. If one is relying on following the law for salvation, then one needs to be following the *whole* law (perfectly) and not just the ten commandments so that there is not even a blemish of sin on you, from birth until death. (And hopefully you're also not hit with one of those "until the tenth generation" sort of things.) The ten commandments is only one part of the law and does not cover all of the requirements that God expected those under the law to obey.

Yet this is what you keep saying that no one is saying to you. If no one is saying what your saying than you have no argument. If you have no argument what are you arguing about? No one is saying or believes that they are saved by the works of the law. Only you are making these claims and if the argument is not there why build it? If you keep building something that is not there when people have told you otherwise, then it becomes a groundless accusation not based on any facts except an attempt to draw others away from the Word of God when you have provided none. It just becomes an attempt at flaming and goading. Please see Post # 99 again (linked)

 

[bekkilyn]

Yet this is what you keep saying that no one is saying to you. If no one is saying what your saying than you have no argument. If you have no argument what are you arguing about? No one is saying or believes that they are saved by the works of the law. Only you are making these claims and if the argument is not there why build it? If you keep building something that is not there when people have told you otherwise, then it becomes a groundless accusation not based on any facts except an attempt to draw others away from the Word of God when you have provided none. It just becomes an attempt at flaming and goading. Please see Post # 99 again (linked)

Will those who do not observe Saturday Sabbath enter heaven, yes or no?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Will those who do not observe Saturday Sabbath enter heaven, yes or no?

God's Word says anyone practicing known, unrepentant sin will not enter into God's Kingdom.
(Acts 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-27; Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 John 2:2-4; 1 John 3:3-9; Psalms 1:5; 2 Peter 3:7; Jude 1:14-15; Romans 6:23; Ecclesiastes 12:13; Isaiah 1:28; Isaiah 13:9; Isaiah 33:14; Ezekiel 18:20-24; Proverbs 8:36; Ezekiel 33:12.. etc etc etc)

God's Word says known, unrepentant SIN will keep us out of God's Kingdom because it is UNBELIEF in God's Word and we are only saved by believing God and by faith following him who loves all.

 

[FreeAtLast]

I don't mean to be argumentative but you seem to have missed my point, which is Paul's verses out of the context in which Paul used them mean nothing or else assume a false meaning, that is not what Paul meant.

Thank you for not being argumentative, I do not wish to be so either, just gracious discussion of the Scriptures.

No, I have not missed your point at all, I simply don't believe it to be true. These verses listed are not out of context, and they are exactly what Paul meant. I know you see it differently, however, I see it literally, as he meant it.

Paul's epistle are private communications to specific people and are one side of a conversation which further diminishes their meaning for us. Paul is a touchy subject involving forum rules which limit what I can say. In the case of Paul, God has given me nothing to disagree with; only Paul testifies of Paul.

I am thankful for the forum rules, and I totally agree with them. Actually, G-d testifies that ALL Scripture, which includes the words of Paul, are from HIM.
2 Timothy 3:16

 

[FreeAtLast]

And the part that says that the Law has changed or is done away with? Where does it say that?

I ask you to please show me a Scripture which states that just part of the Law is done away with but other parts remains. Where does it say that?

I have not found in any of the Scripture which says part of the Law is done away with and some remain. That is a man-made doctrine, not supported in Scripture. The entirety of the Old Covenant Law of Moses has been done away with, replaced by Yeshua's New Covenant.

The Law/Torah as referenced in Jeremiah 31:33 makes no mention of an altered Law/Torah, but is a reference to what the Law/Torah has always been previous to Jeremiah - the first five books of the Bible in it's entirety.

There is no altered Old Covenant, it is replaced, in its entirety by the New Covenant. Who said that it was altered? No me. You did.

No, the prophecy of Jeremiah 31 is directly speaking of the NEW Covenant of Yeshua. Please refer to the highlighted portions again, especially where G-d the Father through Jeremiah states that the NEW is not like the one made with our fathers in Sinai and that there is referring to the Old. So the new one is not the Old one.

How can you say the prophecy is referring to the Old Covenant made through Moses when G-d through Jeremiah states that it is NOT that Covenant, but an entirely New one?

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the L-rd, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the L-rd. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the L-rd: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their G-d, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the L-rd,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the L-rd. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

 

[Kenny'sID]

And that's the problem. If one is relying on following the law for salvation, then one needs to be following the *whole* law (perfectly) and not just the ten commandments so that there is not even a blemish of sin on you, from birth until death. (And hopefully you're also not hit with one of those "until the tenth generation" sort of things.) The ten commandments is only one part of the law and does not cover all of the requirements that God expected those under the law to obey.

Who here is relying on the law for salvation?

Though we can never earn our salvation we can most assuredly lose it by doing evil.

Seriously, people, does anyone here really believe they can get saved by faith/grace, go on an unrepentant ,murdering, lying, adulterous spree for the rest of their life and still go to heaven?

Can someone please answer that? No?

Then we need, actually, "must" show our faith, as in doing good works, otherwise our faith is dead, then there is that little detail that if we don't, Jesus will treat us like a Goat....not good at all.

Some of the bible can be a little complicated, especially if we complicate it, and some of it is simple....this is all simple.

 

[bekkilyn]

God's Word says anyone practicing known, unrepentant sin will not enter into God's Kingdom.
(Acts 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-27; Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 John 2:2-4; 1 John 3:3-9; Psalms 1:5; 2 Peter 3:7; Jude 1:14-15; Romans 6:23; Ecclesiastes 12:13; Isaiah 1:28; Isaiah 13:9; Isaiah 33:14; Ezekiel 18:20-24; Proverbs 8:36; Ezekiel 33:12.. etc etc etc)

God's Word says known, unrepentant SIN will keep us out of God's Kingdom because it is UNBELIEF in God's Word and we are only saved by believing God and by faith following him who loves all.

You did not answer the question. The question was, "Will those who do not observe Saturday Sabbath enter heaven, yes or no?"

 

[Theo Book]

Your interpretation of God's Law (10 commandments) and the Mosaic laws seem to be mixed up which has led you to a wrong conclusion. It is true we are not under the Old Covenant laws of Moses. These are nailed to the cross because they were pointing as Shadows to Jesus.

You do not seem to understand however the difference between the laws of Moses and God's Law (10 commandments) which are the work of God and the standard of sin and righteousness in the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the Judgement to come.

What is the difference and roles of God's Law (10 commandments) and the laws of Moses .................................

(1) God’s Law (10 commandments)
Purpose; reveals what sin and righteousness (right doing) is and the describes the penalty for sin (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23). It was never a cure for sin. But it was the work of God which is forever and the foundation of the Old Covenant, the New Covenant and the Judgement to come. (Exodus 32:16; Exodus 31:18; 31:18; Exodus 20:1-22; Deuteronomy 10:5; Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 7:19; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31; Ps 111:7-8; Revelation 12:17; 14:12; 22:14; 1 John 3:5-8; 1 John 2:3-4; Ecclesiastes 3:14)

(2) The laws of Moses (Levitical, ceremonial, sacrificial)
Purpose; was the prescriptive cure for sin with all the Levitical and ceremonial laws, burnt offerings for sin, annual feast days foretelling the plan of salvation which were connected to Feast days with New Moon sabbaths, food and drink offerings and other Holy days. These where all types pointing to Jesus and the plan of salvation and provided a cure for sin through animal sacrifice and food and drink offerings and yearly sin atonement's for God’s people. (Leviticus 1:1-13; Leviticus 23:1-44; Numbers 28:1-31; 29:1-40; Deuteronomy 24:10-11; Exodus 24:3; Deuteronomy 31:24-26; Colossians 2:16-16; Hebrews 10:1; Ephesians 2:14-15; Leviticus 4; 5; 6; Hebrews 4:14; 9;10; John 1:29; not exhaustive there are many more).

Why were the ceremonial laws of Moses (handwriting of ordinances) nailed to the cross and shadows of things to come......

Jesus was our true sacrifice for our sins and the saviour of the world that the ceremonial laws of Moses all pointed to. When Jesus came and died the old Covenant laws of Moses that pointed to Jesus and the plan of salvation was fulfilled (John 1:29; 36; Revelation 5:6; 1 Corinthians 5:6-7; Hebrews 8:2-13; 9:1-28). Jesus is our true Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and our sacrifice for our sins. It is our sins as well as the ceremonial laws of Moses that were nailed to the cross at the death of Jesus (Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15; John 3:16).

God's Law is forever and the standard of the Old and New Covenants and the Judgement to come.....

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Exodus 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecclesiastes 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Psalms 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Exodus 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matthew 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Psalms 111:7-8, Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Galatians 3:24; Revelation 1:5). '

In the New Covenant; God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Romans 13:10). This is why Jesus says to those that love him If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15). He that says I know him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4) Obedience to God’s Law is the fruit of faith that works by love and fulfills God's Law in us who walk by faith and not by sight and walking in God's Spirit one does not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Faith in God's Word is the power of God unto salvation. Salvation is by faith alone, it is the great gift of God to those who walk in the Spirit who have faith in the Word of creation to live a life of Godliness and Holiness. If the Son shall make you free you shall be free indeed...... Salvation is from sin not in sin... If we break one of God's commandments we stand guilty before God of breaking all of them (James 2:8-12). Please friend do not take my word for it please pray and ask God and check the scriptures provided here to see if it is true or not for yourself....

So yep we are not under the Mosaic laws that were shadows of things to come but God's Law (10 commandments) are forever and the standard of what sin is and righteousness (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; Psalms 119:172; Ecclesiastes 3:14).

Let's now reason with your interpretation that God's Law has now been ABOLISHED........

It is only through the Law of God (10 commandments) that any of us have a knowledge of what sin is (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 24). If we do away with God's Law (10 commandments) we have no knowledge of sin. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a savior. If we have no need of a savior we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost. "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Romans 2:12).

That did not work out to well now did it? You may need to go back to God's Word in prayerful study and examine what you believe as there is too many scriptures that do not agree with you that God's Law (10 commandments) is Abolished.

Who should we believe God or Man? The teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God? Jesus says if we follow the teachings and traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we believe God or man?

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.[Gal 3:16]

Wherefore then serveth the law?
It was added because of transgressions,
TILL the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. [Gal 3:19]

And who was the seed to whom the promise was made?

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.[Gal 3:16]

 

[FreeAtLast]

Who here is relying on the law for salvation?

I've seen it implied repeatedly in here, and even by you, in this comment I am quoting, but perhaps I've misunderstood your meaning.

Though we can never earn our salvation we can most assuredly lose it by doing evil.

Not every born again Believer believes that, but that is a discussion for another forum I believe, "Can you lose your salvation". And here is where it appears to me that you are implying that if we do not adhere to the Old Covenant Law of Moses that we are "doing evil" and can lose our salvation. I will expound on this below.

Seriously, people, does anyone here really believe they can get saved by faith/grace, go on an unrepentant ,murdering, lying, adulterous spree for the rest of their life and still go to heaven?
Can someone please answer that? No?

We CAN answer that yes, and HAVE multiple times. Seriously, it has been asked and answered SO many times, I'm surprised that you are saying this. I've personally answered this question from you, and I've read so many others that have answered it as well, so your question is confusing at best.

The truth is that those us who who believe the Scriptures state that we (IF we are truly born again Believers in Yeshua as G-d and trust in Him for salvation) know that Yeshua's NEW Covenant commands are what we follow. They are not "evil" they are holy. We cannot be unrepentant, murder, lie, commit adultery etc, etc. NO one here has ever said that we are lawless because we accept the Scriptures to say that we are not under the Old Covenant Law of Moses, for we say over and over again that we are under Yeshua's NBEW Covenant and HIS commands.

Have you not read the New Covenant? Do you not believe it to be G-d's Word?

Then we need, actually, "must" show our faith, as in doing good works, otherwise our faith is dead, then there is that little detail that if we don't, Jesus will treat us like a Goat....not good at all.

We SHOULD do good works because we love Yeshua, our Savior as we live for Him, doing good works. However, the thief on the Cross did not do good works and he was saved. Salvation is not through us. Yeshua's work on the Cross is ALL that is needed for salvation. The Scriptures do not state that His work was incomplete and in fact He said "It is finished."

And no, the "goats" are unbelievers, not the born again Believers in Yeshua who have our sins forgiven. Works do not save us and works cannot cause us to lose our salvation. Our salvation is by Yeshua alone, not us.

Also, "works" do not mean Old Covenant Law of Moses. Works means works, not Law.

 

[FreeAtLast]

But you left out the part where Jesus said to follow the 10 commandments. That's why I asked if that was all there was to it. I must have repeated that at least ten times in the last week. Jesus does in fact tell the rich man that, the rich man that wanted to know how to attain everlasting life....Keep the commandments.

Actually, this has been explained and explained so many times. Yeshua had to adhere to the Old Covenant Law until He became the Perfect Lamb and died for all sin. He was under the Old Covenant until then, and then He brought us His NEW Covenant, which we are now under.

Yeshua did not say to follow the 10 commandments to the rich, young ruler. He said there was something lacking. He said to sell everything and follow Him.

Matthew 19:16-22
16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

 

[FreeAtLast]

A couple of questions for you.
Is this the "They were never saved to begin with" part?

Where do you get that the goats were ever saved? Sheep are saved and goats unsaved. See why below:

From Got Questions

"In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, we are looking at man redeemed and saved, and man condemned and lost. A casual reading seems to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. The “sheep” acted charitably, giving food, drink, and clothing to the needy. The “goats” showed no charity. This seems to result in salvation for the sheep and damnation for the goats.

However, Scripture does not contradict itself, and the Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that salvation is by faith through the grace of God and not by our good works (see John 1:12; Acts 15:11; Romans 3:22-24; Romans 4:4-8; Romans 7:24-25; Romans 8:12; Galatians 3:6-9; and Ephesians 2:8-10). In fact, Jesus Himself makes it clear in the parable that the salvation of the “sheep” is not based on their works—their inheritance was theirs “since the creation of the world” (Matthew 25:34), long before they could ever do any good works!

The good works mentioned in the parable are not the cause of salvation but the effect of salvation. As Christians we become like Christ (see Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; and Colossians 2:6-7). Galatians 5:22 tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. Good works in a Christian’s life are the direct overflow of these traits, and are only acceptable to God because of the relationship that exists between servant and Master, the saved and their Savior, the sheep and their Shepherd (see Ephesians 2:10).

The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God’s people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God."

 

[Kenny'sID]

God's Word says anyone practicing known, unrepentant sin will not enter into God's Kingdom.
(Acts 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-27; Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 John 2:2-4; 1 John 3:3-9; Psalms 1:5; 2 Peter 3:7; Jude 1:14-15; Romans 6:23; Ecclesiastes 12:13; Isaiah 1:28; Isaiah 13:9; Isaiah 33:14; Ezekiel 18:20-24; Proverbs 8:36; Ezekiel 33:12.. etc etc etc)

God's Word says known, unrepentant SIN will keep us out of God's Kingdom because it is UNBELIEF in God's Word and we are only saved by believing God and by faith following him who loves all.

Oft times the comeback is, those living like that we're never saved to begin with. And that such scripture is always talking about "someone else, not me, because I'm saved and have faith". When in reality, it is taking about unbelievers and the ones that claim to be saved by faith, and believe when they really did not because they acted in such a way to show unbelief.

They claimed keeping the law for salvation was sin, as reason not to bother keeping the very basics, because breaking the basics was fun, the real reason behind their created reality.

They could actually break the law consistently, and without repentance because they were saved by grace alone, and the others, in their mind, will go to Hell for the same thing because they had no faith and were not saved. While citing other reasons such as "no one can pluck us out of his hand" as justification for their actions.

They had it all worked out but in the end, they found they were just the unbelievers the Bible was talking about, they proved it by their actions/inaction.

If that isn't you, then it's not meant for you, if it is, then it is.

 

[FreeAtLast]

These would be good to know:

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

Yes! These are Yeshua's commandments and they are not grievous. However, as the Scriptures posted state, the Old Covenant Law of Moses IS an unbearable yoke. That's what the Bible calls it, and so it is truth.

To say law is not valid is same as saying, it is ok to murder people and I think that is sick.

Where do you get that who are showing the Scriptures state that the Old Covenant Law does not apply to born again Believers in Yeshua means that we believe we can sin?

Do you believe Jesus is G-d?
Do you believe The New Covenant is G-d's words?
Have you read it?

If you have, you should have seen that Yeshua, under His NEW Covenant, calls us to be holy and not sin. So, where you get that understanding the Old Law is not valid does not mean NO law. We are under Yeshua's Law and commands - His New Covenant.

 

[FreeAtLast]

Oft times the comeback is, those living like that we're never saved to begin with.

Differing views are not "comebacks" they are differing Biblical views. You will find these in Biblical discussions.

And that such scripture is always talking about "someone else, not me, because I'm saved and have faith". When in reality, it is taking about unbelievers and the ones that claim to be saved by faith, and believe when they really did not because they acted in such a way to show unbelief.

I don't know what or whom you are talking about, can we please stick to the Scriptures?

The Scriptures I posted show clearly that your statement that is we do not do good works, we will be treated as goats by Yeshua, is not what the parable says at all. The "goats" are unsaved and the sheep are saved. One cannot be saved by works or lose their salvation by lack of works.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Where do you get that the goats were ever saved? Sheep are saved and goats unsaved. See why below:

From Got Questions

"In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, we are looking at man redeemed and saved, and man condemned and lost. A casual reading seems to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. The “sheep” acted charitably, giving food, drink, and clothing to the needy. The “goats” showed no charity. This seems to result in salvation for the sheep and damnation for the goats.

If Got Questions said it it must be true.

What in the world is the point of the parable then? We are already aware the unsaved don't go to heaven. And no they weren't saved, they just thought they were, like many do, hence their questioning Christ with basically "What are you talking about, Jesus? They thought they were saved was the whole point of the scripture, I mean they had faith? right? Only those who choose not to see that is the point of the scripture will not see it.

I already went into that in depth, take it or leave it. We can always go find someone who agrees with our way, right or wrong ....choose your truth.

 

[FreeAtLast]

If Got Questions said it it must be true.

haha.

Actually the Scriptures posted are true. Got Questions is only man's opinion and one I happen to agree with. They said it better than I, so I quoted them. You, of course do not have to agree.

However, the SCRIPTURES posted you do have to agree, since G-d's Word is truth.

What in the world is the point of the parable then? We are already aware the unsaved don't go to heaven. And no they weren't saved, they just thought they were, like many do, hence their questioning Christ with basically "What are you talking about, Jesus? They thought they were saved was the whole point of the scripture, I mean they had faith? right? Only those who choose not to see that is the point of the scripture will not see it.

The point of the parable is to show that works, no matter HOW good, get you eternal life. Again, from what I posted:

"The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God’s people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God."

I already went into that in depth, take it or leave it. We can always go find someone who agrees with our way, right or wrong ....choose your truth.

Yeah no. You went into what? What part of my post are you referring to? It would be helpful for you to clarify. You have been answered multiple times on many of your questions, yet you state no one has answered. The truth is those of us who disagree with your interpretation are just as valid as ones who agree with you. Mutual respect please. What I've posted from Scripture disagrees with you. What are you referring to

 

[Kenny'sID]

Differing views are not "comebacks" they are differing Biblical views. You will find these in Biblical discussions.

Differing views result in comebacks, and I use the term because it is a favorite taught to negate the truth. It IS a comeback.

come·back
ˈkəmˌbak/
noun
noun: comeback; plural noun: comebacks; noun: come-back; plural noun: come-backs

1. 2.
   informal
   a quick reply to a critical remark.
   synonyms: retort, riposte, return, rejoinder; More

I don't know what or whom you are talking about, can we please stick to the Scriptures?

What do you mean stick with scripture? I'm talking about scripture. Saying what you just did is like me now telling you to "stick to scripture" because you didn't happen to be quoting scripture when you told me to stick to scripture. No point.

If you really disagree with something fine but not sure what you are doing there? Not a comeback? Stick to scripture?

Then you say you don't know who I'm talking about when I was very clear if that isn't you, it isn't you, if it is, it is.

No offense intended, it's just a fact, if you have a disagreement fine, state it, but disagreeing with me on nothing of any real substance at all isn't going to result in anything, like my reply here, it doesn't debate the subject really because there was nothing in that area to reply too in you post.