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Why Believers are not under the Old Covenant Law of Moses

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by FreeAtLast, Nov 6, 2017.

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  1. FreeAtLast

    FreeAtLast Messianic Jew

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    So you argue with the Scriptures where it says the Old Covenant Law of Moses is an unbearable yoke and you provide Scriptures that say that very thing is NOT true about Yeshua's NEW Covenant commands? Interesting.

    Actually Bob, what you posted is wonderful PROOF (when read in context) that the NEW Covenant commands of Yeshua are not burdensome, which is quite different than the Scriptures prove the Old Covenant Law was.

    Let's look at these in context please and with proper exegesis.

    1 John 5:1-5
    Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of G-d, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of G-d, when we love G-d and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of G-d, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of G-d overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of G-d?

    WHOSE commandments, to WHOM is John speaking of - Yeshua.

    And further

    Matthew 11:
    27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
     
  2. Anderseric

    Anderseric Newbie

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    @LoveGodsWord Thank you for using the Scriptures to show God's wisdom. It is because of my faith in Jesus that I obey His commandments. I don't understand why that is so difficult for us to understand. There is no burden honoring His Way. Blessings to you.
     
  3. FreeAtLast

    FreeAtLast Messianic Jew

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    YES. Amen. Thank you! Amen again!
     
  4. christopheralan88

    christopheralan88 Member

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    Let's remember that everything in the "New Testament" must be grounded in the "Old Testament"/Tanakh. That said, can you show me a place in the "Old Testament"/Tanakh that prophecies that the Messiah will change the Law/Torah? I have not found one yet and no one else has been able to find one for me yet, either. However, here are a few things I found that make the belief that the Jesus changed/did away with the Law problematic:

    Consider that Jesus could not have added to/subtracted from the Law or He would have been sinning (Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 13:1-5, and 28:14) and would have been worthy of death (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).

    Consider also that the Messiah is prophesied to teach the Torah/Law like Moses did (Deuteronomy 18:14-19):
    "...for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do this. The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me [Moses] from among you [Israel], from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— 16just as you desired of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ 17And the LORD said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. 18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.

    At Horeb/Sinai, Israel was too afraid of God to hear any more of the Law after the 10 commandments, so they asked Moses to go up and get the rest of the Law and bring it to them instead of hearing from God directly (Exodus 20-31). In this context, Messiah will be like Moses in that He will be the intermediary between God and us to teach us the Law (God's Words).

    Acts 3:17-24 proves that Jesus is this "Prophet like unto Moses" spoken of in Deuteronomy 18:14-19:
    "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days."

    To say that Jesus changed or did away with Law is not founded on any Messianic prophecy. However, disturbingly, it actually makes Jesus fit a prophecy of the Antichrist in Daniel 7:25:
    "And he [the little horn/Antichrist] shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times (the Feast Days) and laws: and they [the saints] shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

    We need to have a foundation in the Tanakh (what is mistakenly called the "Old Testament") to understand who Jesus is and what He taught.

    This thread makes the mistake of thinking that the original covenant is "old". If people were founded in the Tanakh, they would know that it is impossible to make the original covenant "old". Genesis 17 lays out the terms of the original covenant and in Genesis 17:7 it says it is an "everlasting" covenant. Since God does not change His mind (Numbers 23:19), then He cannot make His everlasting covenant "old".
     
  5. drjean

    drjean Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Yeshua FULFILLED the law, not changed. The law required (for any sin etc) a blood sacrifice and as most know, the sacrifice once a year as atonement for one's sins for the next year. This was done in looking forward to the Messiah to come, believing and trusting God's Word. Once Messiah came and became the ULTIMATE BLOOD ATONEMENT SACRIFICE, it was finished---the law was fulfilled and finished. He didn't change it, it finished it so that it was no longer necessary.
     
  6. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Jesus did not come to do away with the law or abolish it but He did come to fulfill it.
    He said Heaven and Earth could pass away, but the law would not pass away till it was fulfilled. Which He came to do.
    One of the things Jesus did with the law was to magnify and make it honorable. Isaiah 42:21
    This had to be done because the Pharisees made the law keepable with there tradition.
    The law in the state that the Pharisees made it no longer exposed peoples sins.. The rich young ruler of Mark 10 said he had kept the commands that Jesus gave him from his youth. I seriously doubt that he was able to do such a thing in God's eyes. But, Jesus, instead of calling him on his deception exposed his sin by saying, "Go and sell all that you have and come follow me".

    Jesus used the law in a lawful manner, He exposed the sin in his life. This is what is meant in 1 Tim 1:8-9.
    1:8
    But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
    1:9
    Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient etc.
    There was a time I was to to someone about this verse who said believers were still under the law. And when I said that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless(that was as far as I got). Then he said, "See
    if you don't have the 10 commandments you are lawless, so the law is for the righteous too. I was just stunned. That would mean the statement the law is not made for the righteous to be superfluous.

    As for a believer in Jesus Christ, someone who is trusting in the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross, who has become the righteousness of God in Christ. They are not under the law of the 10 commandments.
    They are under Grace. Rom 6:14 For this person, Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all those who believe. Rom 10:4

    As for Cain, he was given grace. God protected him.
    And yes there were laws given before Exodus 20. God spoke to people, He had relationships with them.
    Joseph knew it was wrong to commit adultery with Potiphar's wife. He knew this because He had a personal relationship with God. Noah knew which animals were clean and which were unclean because he had a relationship with God. God wanted this same relationship with the Israelites.
    Exodus 19:5-6
    Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
    19:6
    And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    But, the people exposed there self-righteousness when they said,
    Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do.
    Then God's tone changes and He tells Moses and Aaron to come up to the mount. Exodus 19:24
    And then God speaks the law to Moses and Aaron only. Giving them a law that would expose there sin.
    Up to Exodus 19 the people were unable to keep what God had given them, yet God was merciful and gave them Grace. After the law was given, when they did the same things, breaking the Sabbath and murmuring and complaining, they died.
    God wants to have a personal relationship with us.
    He loves us and because He loves us, we can love Him. Why do we need a set of rules to show us how to live when we have His Spirit directing us.
    We are to love others as He loved us. Why do we need a set of rules to show us how to do that when we have Christ living inside of us.
    If we trust in Him with all our heart, and we don't lean on our own understanding, and we acknowledge Him in all our ways, He will direct our paths.
     
  7. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    These would be good to know:

    For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
    1 John 5:3


    "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Mat. 5:17-19

    To say law is not valid is same as saying, it is ok to murder people and I think that is sick.

    we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully, as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;
    1 Tim. 1:8-10

    Unfortunately this seems to be happening nowadays:

    Because iniquity (=the condition of without law) will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold.
    Matt. 24:12
     
  8. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You got all over me for a comment I made to someone else, and don't see you are flaming in that at all, yet you accuse me.

    Ignore is probably best for you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  9. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    Actual definition of anomia, the Greek word for iniquity. I don't see "condition of without law"

    G458
    Greek:
    ἀνομία
    Transliteration:
    anomia
    Pronunciation:
    an-om-ee'-ah
    Definition:
    From G459; illegality that is violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity X transgress (-ion of) the law unrighteousness.

    Nobody is saying that the law is not valid. We are saying it is not for believers.
    In order to use the law in a lawful manner, it should be used for the purpose for which it was designed.
    That is to expose sin.
    An unbeliever needs to know that they have broken God's law and are in need of a Savior.
    Unless they acknowledge that they are a sinner, they will not come to Christ.
    To teach the law to a believer is using the law in an unlawful manner.
     
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  10. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello Kenny.

    Dead faith is one without any works at all, agreed.

    17 Even so dead, being by itself. (James 2)

    Most Christians have obviously committed some measure of good works, good works in the modern Christian world are impossible to avoid.

    It is near impossible for a Christian not to perform at least one good work.

    Idle faith occurs when Christians enter into a period of stillness, in regard to good works.
    They may have previously performed good works but are now idle. This is the middle ground between no works and many works. Idle faith cannot be condemned.

    I will always maintain that we are saved by Grace through the gift of faith, and that is the primary doctrine (Ephesians 2:8). I reject any doctrine of justification by works.

    Anyone who proposes justification by works, misunderstands the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Good works are necessary but will not justify anyone before God.

    Abraham was justified because he believed God, the attempted sacrifice of his son was simply that belief exercised.
     
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  11. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi Grammy, so nice to meet you. Some comments for you below............

    Question 1 .........................
    Reply.....................................
    God's Word does not agree with you...............................

    SIN is breaking GOD's LAW (10 commandments) and not following God's Word (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20) A born again believer does not PRACTICE KNOWN SIN (1 John 3:9). God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who OBEY him (Acts 5:32; Acts 3:19). You cannot separate God's Spirit from God's Word they are one (John 6:63). If you do not believe and follow God's Word you do not have His Spirit and do not know God (1 John 3:6; Acts 5:32)

    Question 2 .........................
    Reply.....................................
    There has nothing been implied in the question above it is a simple question that God's Word answers very clearly and that is someone living a live of known unrepentant sin is not in a saved state before God (Hebrews 10:26-27; Hebrews 6:4-8). Sin is the breaking of God's commandments (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20).

    If we knowingly break one we stand guilty before God of breaking them all (James 2:8-12). God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11). If we break it just like any other commandment we stand guilty before God and convicted or sin. Unrepentant SIN will keep you out of God's Kingdom (Hebrews 10:26-27). In times of ignorance God winks at but now commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30-31) For God is not willing that anyone should perish and that all should be saved (2 Peter 3:9)

    There will always be temptation because we have a sinful nature and there will be temptation to SIN but through Faith God can make us walk on water to escape resist the temptation as we walk in the Spirit (Romans 8:1-4; 1 Corinthians 10:13; James 1:12)

    Question 3 .........................
    Reply....................................
    Part of what you have said is correct. The Sabbath has not been abolished. This is because there is no scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment has been ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. What you have said about the Sabbath being a Shadow is not correct. How can God's 4th commandment be a Shadow of anything if it was a part of the FINISHED WORK of creation before sin (Genesis 2:1-3)?

    You may want to look here for the 200+ scriptures that disagree with your interpretation of Col 2:14-17 linked for easy access...........

    So nope you did not answer the questions correctly according to scripture.

    Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

    God is calling his people to worship him in Spirit and in truth. Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God? Only God's Word is truth and we are to live by every work of it (Romans 3:4; Matthew 4:4)

    May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.
     
  12. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello LGW.

    You have committed a powerful error.
    The ten commandments listed in Exodus do not cover the array of sins that people can commit.

    You have been taught that God's law means the ten commandments and that is not correct.

    Sin is any disobedience to God's law in general. If you say, do not commit adultery and someone wanders off and commits homosexuality. You will be held accountable for not telling them, that they must abstain from sexual immorality.

    If you tell people that they should not steal and then they favor wealth over God, then you will be held accountable.

    If you teach that people should not take God's name in vain, which divine name are you referring to?
     
  13. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello David,

    There is no error let alone "powerful" error in God's Word. It is God's Word that says SIN is the transgression or breaking of God's 10 commandments not me...................

    1 John 3:4
    WHOSOEVER COMMITS SIN TRANSGRESSED THE LAW: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

    Romans 7:7

    What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: for I HAD NOT KNOW LUST <is there thou shalt not lust?>, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID THOU SHALT NOT COVET <lust comes under Coveting the 10th commandment>

    James 2:11

    For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, THOU ART BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW.

    So yep the scriptures indeed say the God's Law being referred to above is the 10 commandments because the scriptures are quoting from the 10 commandments. This is the Word of God. There are not my words. You make a powerful mistake if you do not believe God's Word, because we are to live by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4) If we do not do what God asks us to then we are not following God because whatsoever is not of faith is also sin (Romans 14:23)

    Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

    Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

    Ecclesiastes 12:13
    Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.


    May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  14. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello LGW.

    So you have been taught that the ten commandments is what matters, that is how sin is defined.

    Acts 15
    20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

    If you sitting at the table eating a steak with the blood in it, are you sinning?

    Gentiles were told not to do that but you seem to think that this is not important?

    Do you see eating meat with the blood in it as comparable to fornication?

    Please explain how you can ignore these instructions and how are they included in the ten commandments?
     
  15. SAAN

    SAAN Newbie

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    The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

    The unbearable yoke they are referring to was the hundreds of ADDED laws the Jews had, like ceremonial hand washing, how far you could travel on the Sabbath and so on, making keeping the commandments a huge burden to do.

    Do you really believe the disciples, who walked by the side of Christ, were going around teaching the commands of God were a burden??? That makes no sense.

    The issue in Acts is the circumcision party going around saying you must follow the law of Moses and be circumcised in order to be saved, and that is no where found in the bible, so thats man made traditions they are spreading. The other major issue was meat sacrificed to idols and the issues of not referring to the gentiles and unclean.

    CURRENT MODERN DAY RELIGION:
    Jews add to the word of God
    Christians take away from the word of God
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  16. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello LGW.

    Do we have to forgive others when they sin against us?

    Is forgiving others a commandment or not?
     
  17. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    The unbearable yoke was not the added tradition laws. If it was the Apostles would have dismissed that out of hand as Jesus had already gotten on the Pharisees about there traditions. And these were believing Pharisees.

    God's law = He loved us, now we can love Him
    We are to love others as He has loved us.

    Let's go back to the Garden of Eden to find out more.
    There were 2 trees of note in the garden.
    Of one tree if you ate the fruit, you would live. We know that by its name. "Tree of Life".
    The second tree, if you ate of it, you would die. We know that because God said so.
    10 Commandments
    1. You shall have no other gods before Me. knowledge of good and evil
    2. You shall not make idols. knowledge of good and evil
    3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain. knowledge of good and evil
    4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. knowledge of good
    5. Honor your father and your mother. knowledge of good
    6. You shall not murder. knowledge of good and evil
    7. You shall not commit adultery. knowledge of good and evil
    8. You shall not steal. knowledge of good and evil
    9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. knowledge of good and evil
    10. You shall not covet. knowledge of good and evil
    So which tree did the 10 commandments come from?
     
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    What part of post # 133 did you not understand? God's Word says sin is the transgression of God's Law (10 commandments). We are to live by EVERY WORD that proceed out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4) because whatsoever is not of faith is SIN (Romans 14:23). If God asks you to do something and you do not do it through faith that works by love, God's Word says you do not have the fruit of obedience and your faith is dead and you are still in your sins because you have not believed what God says. (James 2:18; 20; 26; Matthew 7:19-20; Hebrews 10:26-27; 1 John 3:3-9). If anyone does not believe and follow God's Word it is written they have neither seen him or known him and are still in their sins (1 John 3:3-9)

    You misinterpret the scriptures. Your mistake is that you and some others look at Acts 15 and interpret the chapter as referring to God's Law (10 commandments). What you did not read however in Acts 15 is that the context and chapter of your scripture is talking about circumcision and the laws of Moses as a means of salvation which were types pointing to Jesus.

    You clearly do not know the purpose of the laws of Moses and God's Law. Let's look at what God's Words says.

    What is the purpose of God's Law (10 commandments) and the Mosaic laws...................

    (1) God’s Law (10 commandments)
    Purpose; reveals what sin and righteousness (right doing) is and the describes the penalty for sin
    (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23). It was never a cure for sin. But it was the work of God which is forever and the foundation of the Old Covenant, the New Covenant and the Judgement to come. (Exodus 32:16; Exodus 31:18; 31:18; Exodus 20:1-22; Deuteronomy 10:5; Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 7:19; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31; Ps 111:7-8; Revelation 12:17; 14:12; 22:14; 1 John 3:5-8; 1 John 2:3-4; Ecclesiastes 3:14)

    (2) The laws of Moses (Levitical, ceremonial, sacrificial)
    Purpose; was the prescriptive cure for sin
    with all the Levitical and ceremonial laws, burnt offerings for sin, annual feast days foretelling the plan of salvation which were connected to Feast days with New Moon sabbaths, food and drink offerings and other Holy days. These where all types pointing to Jesus and the plan of salvation and provided a cure for sin through animal sacrifice and food and drink offerings and yearly sin atonement's for God’s people. (Leviticus 1:1-13; Leviticus 23:1-44; Numbers 28:1-31; 29:1-40; Deuteronomy 24:10-11; Exodus 24:3; Deuteronomy 31:24-26; Colossians 2:16-16; Hebrews 10:1; Ephesians 2:14-15; Leviticus 4; 5; 6; Hebrews 4:14; 9;10; John 1:29; not exhaustive there are many more).

    Why were the ceremonial laws of Moses (handwriting of ordinances) nailed to the cross and shadows of things to come......

    Jesus was our true sacrifice for our sins and the saviour of the world that the ceremonial laws of Moses all pointed to. When Jesus came and died the old Covenant laws of Moses that pointed to Jesus and the plan of salvation was fulfilled (John 1:29; 36; Revelation 5:6; 1 Corinthians 5:6-7; Hebrews 8:2-13; 9:1-28). Jesus is our true Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and our sacrifice for our sins. It is our sins as well as the ceremonial laws of Moses that were nailed to the cross at the death of Jesus (Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15; John 3:16).

    More scriptures on this subject here linked referring to Colossians 2:14-17 linking old and new testament writings.................

    Now what is Acts 15:10 talking about. Let's look at the chapter and context.......

    Acts 15
    1, And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved <The controversy is that if you are not circumcised after the law of Moses you cannot be saved>.
    2, When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
    3, And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
    4, And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

    10, Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

    19, Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: <New converts do not need to be circumcised after the law of Moses>
    20, But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
    21, For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day <the new converts will learn more because the scriptures are read in the synagogues every Sabbath>.
    22, Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
    23, And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
    24, Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: <what law are we referring to? The law of Moses; circumcision>

    As mentioned above already the Mosaic laws (not God's Law; 10 commandments) that were the cure for sin in the Old Covenant pointing to Jesus have been done away. They were shadows that pointed to Jesus and were fulfilled at the cross. For example with circumcision...........................

    Romans 2
    28, For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29, But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    Now let's look at your interpretation of Acts 15. You imply by your interpretation of the Chapter because none of God's Law (10 commandments) are mentioned that the Gentiles do not need to follow them. So they can go kill, steal, covet etc etc as long as they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood v20. This is despite more then 1300 scriptures in God's Word that say the opposite. You may need to reconsider your interpretation of God's Word.

    Yep everything is as it is according to God's Word and we should believe it.

    Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

    Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

    May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  19. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We need to get back on track here, you replaced "Faith without works is dead" with "Faith without some good work added is an idle faith."

    The subject is, are works a requirement to salvation? It seem you are kind of saying they are now, while skirting actually saying it. Actually you seem to be confusing the issue by heading in a different direction, but no matter.

    No one is claiming "justification by works alone" "faith and works". Why do you claim that is what anyone is saying? It's an unfounded accusation, and for some reason you aren't the only one that keeps pretending that, and I'm afraid they do that simply because its a useful accusation that helps them with their cause. But if it's not truthful, something is bad wrong with going about things that way. That is hardly all directed at you, it's just that its not a fair comment, and people keep making the claim. When one side feels they have to do that type thing, it speaks loudly in a few ways, and those ways don't help their case.

    Anyway, justified rant over...:)...back to subject. Are works a requirement for salvation or not?

    To that you would/have in affect, stated:

    "Good works are necessary but will not justify anyone before God".(I'm giving you credit here to not claim I'm twisting your words/ taking them out of context or something when I'm merely trying to make an honest point, hope I'm reading you right where I think you can handle the disagreement and aren't going to lash out with anything available. :))

    Does that mean they are "necessary" for salvation or not?

    They say Jesus is God, I happen to feel he is the son of God but if we know the father we know the son, meaning they think exactly alike. And of course we aren't here to argue that, but point being Christ/God=same thing.

    You say good works don't justify anyone before God, but it's clear to me, in the Sheep and the Goats parable, the good works absolutely justified the sheep to Jesus, the ones that were sent to everlasting life as opposed to the Goats who were sent to Hell because they didn't do the "Good Works", the Good works that Jesus/God made perfectly clear with his actions...were absolutely, positively necessary/required.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  20. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And that's all there is to it? Is that really biblical?

    People can and I assure you, will, do all kinds of things with, "all we have to do is love God."

    And I mean bad interpretation and resulting actions.
     
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