Why aren't you a muslim?

JohnDeereFan · Feb 2, 2009

314159 said:
Apologies, I don't know the new testament well enough to find a quote (if one even exists).

No, you claimed that the Bible instructs Christians to kill. You now have a responsibility to back up your statement or retract it.

However, the murderers who kill abortion doctors (for example) do so in the name of Christianity, even if the instructions cannot be found explicitly in the bible. They are undeniably motivated by their belief in God to do these acts.

First of all, these people are not Christians. Second, it's not motivated by their belief in God because if they believed in God, then they would believe His word, which strongly condemns murder.

EDIT: Found a verse from Luke, have to admit I found it on the internet so you can let me know if it's genuine:

Luke 19:27
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.

No, I'm afraid that's a line from a parable (out of context, no less!), not a teaching for Christians to kill.

Quaero · Feb 2, 2009

JohnDeereFan said:
No, you claimed that the Bible instructs Christians to kill. You now have a responsibility to back up your statement or retract it.

First of all, these people are not Christians. Second, it's not motivated by their belief in God because if they believed in God, then they would believe His word, which strongly condemns murder.

No, I'm afraid that's a line from a parable (out of context, no less!), not a teaching for Christians to kill.

Okay just to clar this up:

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Get the idea? I could go on quoting pro-murder scripture all day...

*edit*

In defense of scripture Jesus does not specifically order his followers to kill, but he does not refute or invalidate the old testament laws - "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets". So please no-one use the whole 'Jesus didn't say so argument', if you follow the old testament then you follow the aforementioned laws.

314159 · Feb 2, 2009

JohnDeereFan said:
No, you claimed that the Bible instructs Christians to kill. You now have a responsibility to back up your statement or retract it.

You are incorrect. I said: "Thousands of christians are motivated through their religion to kill people as well".

JohnDeereFan said:
First of all, these people are not Christians.

They believe in the Christian God, therefore they are Christians. Perhaps they don't share you intepretation of Christianity, but they are no less Christian than you are.

JohnDeereFan said:
No, I'm afraid that's a line from a parable (out of context, no less!), not a teaching for Christians to kill.

Fair enough, I did say I'd need someone to check that for me.

JohnDeereFan · Feb 2, 2009

314159 said:
You are incorrect. I said: "Thousands of christians are motivated through their religion to kill people as well".

And yet, when I asked you three times to explain where Christianity teaches Christians to kill, the best you could do was (a) no answer, (b) an account of something that happened between the Israelites and the Canaanites, and (c) a parable that has nothing to do with instructing anybody to kill anybody.

They believe in the Christian God, therefore they are Christians. Perhaps they don't share you intepretation of Christianity, but they are no less Christian than you are.

Actually, they are. You see, Christianity is not some nebulous state that changes from individual to individual. Christianity is governed by an objective, authoritative creed, which is expressed in the Bible.

The Bible makes it very clear that not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is a Christian (the obvious example would be the people in Matthew 25), only people who fall within the given criteria. That is why Jesus tells us that we can know who is and isn't a Christian and that we are to judge certain people as non-Christians.

As none of the people who have killed abortion doctors meet those criteria, then they are not Christians.

DanielRB · Feb 2, 2009

Quaero & 314159,

While I may agree that the Bible contains commands from God to his people to kill others, I think it should be clearly pointed out that Christians are never told to kill. This is an important distinction. Though I think it's entirely legitimate to point out that supposedly the same God ordered the killing of Amalakite babies as the one who allegedly died on the cross out of love, I do not think it's fair to claim that the Bible supports the idea that Christians are to kill, any more than the idea that the Bible supports the idea that Christians should not eat pork, offer animal sacrifices or anything else that may have been explicit in the Old Testament but not in the New.

Of course, the real question is beyond this: it is not if God would order his followers to do x and y. Rather, if God exists, and he is all-powerful, then it is quite obvious that he allows for death and destruction every day. All deaths ultimately would be God's responsibility, as he could prevent them if he chose to do so.

Some might argue (even Christians) that it's not our role to kill, but it's God's preogative to do so. That may be true, but if they believe the Bible, then they believe that in times past (at least) God has ordered his followers to do so. But nearly every Christian would reject the idea that killing is in the "marching orders for the day" for them.

Daniel

JohnDeereFan · Feb 2, 2009

Quaero said:
Okay just to clar this up:

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

Get the idea? I could go on quoting pro-murder scripture all day...

Well, first of all, none of those verses are pro-murder. They're verses about capital punishment.

Second, none of them are commands directed to Christians.

In defense of scripture Jesus does not specifically order his followers to kill

But I thought you just said those verses were "pro-murder". Which is it?

but he does not refute or invalidate the old testament laws - "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets". So please no-one use the whole 'Jesus didn't say so argument', if you follow the old testament then you follow the aforementioned laws.

No, we don't follow the aforementioned laws because those laws (a) are no longer in existence and (b) weren't given to us in the first place.

DanielRB · Feb 2, 2009

Hi JohnDeereFan,

JohnDeereFan said:
And yet, when I asked you three times to explain where Christianity teaches Christians to kill, the best you could do was (a) no answer, (b) an account of something that happened between the Israelites and the Canaanites, and (c) a parable that has nothing to do with instructing anybody to kill anybody.

Actually, they are. You see, Christianity is not some nebulous state that changes from individual to individual. Christianity is governed by an objective, authoritative creed, which is expressed in the Bible.

The Bible makes it very clear that not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is a Christian (the obvious example would be the people in Matthew 25), only people who fall within the given criteria. That is why Jesus tells us that we can know who is and isn't a Christian and that we are to judge certain people as non-Christians.

As none of the people who have killed abortion doctors meet those criteria, then they are not Christians.

I think you're in danger of falling into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

You must admit that Christians fall into sin, and sometimes may even murder. Sinning, in and of itself, does not make someone not a Christian, according to the Bible.

Those that bomb abortion clinics and kill abortionists view themselves like those Christian Generals and others (including Bohnhoffer, a pastor) who plotted to kill Hitler. Yes, it would be murder and yes it would be illegal, but they thought it was justified given the circumstances. You (as myself) are simply rejecting their point of view.

May I ask when you think, if ever, it is justified for a Christian to kill?

Daniel

JohnDeereFan · Feb 2, 2009

DanielRB said:
Hi JohnDeereFan,

I think you're in danger of falling into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

I think you're in danger of showing that you don't know what the "no true Scotsman falacy" is.

You must admit that Christians fall into sin, and sometimes may even murder. Sinning, in and of itself, does not make someone not a Christian, according to the Bible.

According to 1 John, those who practice sin are not Christians.

May I ask when you think, if ever, it is justified for a Christian to kill?

Self defence, capital punishment, war...

314159 · Feb 2, 2009

JohnDeereFan said:
And yet, when I asked you three times to explain where Christianity teaches Christians to kill...

Oh dear, first you think I said the bible has in it verses which tell specifically Christians to kill, and now you think I am saying that Christianity teaches Christians to kill. Read my post again, slowly:

"Thousands of christians are motivated through their religion to kill people as well"

There is a distinct difference bewteen what I am saying and what you are suggesting I am saying.

JohnDeereFan · Feb 2, 2009

314159 said:
Oh dear, first you think I said the bible has in it verses which tell specifically Christians to kill, and now you think I am saying that Christianity teaches Christians to kill. Read my post again, slowly:

"Thousands of christians are motivated through their religion to kill people as well"

WHAT PART OF THE BIBLE MOTIVATES PEOPLE TO KILL?

Quaero · Feb 2, 2009

JohnDeereFan said:
WHAT PART OF THE BIBLE MOTIVATES PEOPLE TO KILL?

this is humorous.

I believe 314159 is saying that people who profess to being Christian are motivated through corrupted teachings to kill, even though they are supposedly Christ's followers. The bible does tell the Israelites to kill, but that should still not be a motivating factor for modern day, 21st century Christians to commit murder.

JohnDeereFan · Feb 2, 2009

Quaero said:
this is humorous.

I believe 314159 is saying that people who profess to being Christian are motivated through corrupted teachings to kill, even though they are supposedly Christ's followers. The bible does tell the Israelites to kill, but that should still not be a motivating factor for modern day, 21st century Christians to commit murder.

He has stated several times that Christians are motivated by their religion to kill.

314159 · Feb 2, 2009

JohnDeereFan said:
WHAT PART OF THE BIBLE MOTIVATES PEOPLE TO KILL?

There are all sorts of prejudices present in the bible which motivate Christians to do bad things, and in some instances resort to murder. I've listed a few select examples below:

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Leviticus 20:13

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD."
Deuteronomy 23:1

"The Jews who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men."
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15

"Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord."
Colossians 3:18

It is undeniable that some attitudes, such as homophobia and antisemitism, can arise from reading (and more importantly) believing verses such as these, and that these attitudes can lead to unlawful killing.

JohnDeereFan · Feb 2, 2009

314159 said:
There are all sorts of prejudices present in the bible which motivate Christians to do bad things, and in some instances resort to murder. I've listed a few select examples below:

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Leviticus 20:13

And, as I've already pointed out to you (a) this isn't referring to murder and (b) this was a command to the Jews, NOT TO CHRISTIANS.

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD."
Deuteronomy 23:1

See above.

"The Jews who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men."
1 Thessalonians 2:14-15

What part of this says to kill anybody?

"Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord."
Colossians 3:18

OK. I'll bite: what about husbands and wives submitting to one another says to kill anybody?

It is undeniable that some attitudes, such as homophobia and antisemitism, can arise from reading (and more importantly) believing verses such as these, and that these attitudes can lead to unlawful killing.

How do these have anything to do with homophobia or anti-Semitism?

ke1985 · Feb 2, 2009

The law of non-contradiction.

Each religion has different ways of theology and getting to Heaven. They all cannot be right. Of course, the OP believes they are all wrong and each religious sect believes their religion is the right one.

There can only be one right religion and that is Christianity.

However, I do not believe in Islam because I view it as a violent and sexist religion. While I am aware that Christianity along with every religion on Earth has sexist and violent components, Christianity is the only religion to claim that God came to Earth as a man to die for human's sins and the Christian God, compared to the Islamic God, is seen more as compassionate, loving, and personal.

I would never believe in a religion that calls for men to "lightly beat" their wives and that women are inferior intellectually.

There IS a reason why these terroristic groups are mainly located in Islamic countries.
The Koran speaks violence!!

ke1985 · Feb 2, 2009

DanielRB said:
Hi JohnDeereFan,

I think you're in danger of falling into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

You must admit that Christians fall into sin, and sometimes may even murder. Sinning, in and of itself, does not make someone not a Christian, according to the Bible.

Those that bomb abortion clinics and kill abortionists view themselves like those Christian Generals and others (including Bohnhoffer, a pastor) who plotted to kill Hitler. Yes, it would be murder and yes it would be illegal, but they thought it was justified given the circumstances. You (as myself) are simply rejecting their point of view.

May I ask when you think, if ever, it is justified for a Christian to kill?

Daniel

Wow, great job at arguing!!! One of the best I have seen in a long time.

JohnDeereFan · Feb 2, 2009

ke1985 said:
Wow, great job at arguing!!! One of the best I have seen in a long time.

Yeah, if you don't like the objective and authoritative standard by which something is judged, go ahead and accuse your oponent of the "no true scotsman fallacy".

Yeah, that's brilliant.

ke1985 · Feb 2, 2009

JohnDeereFan said:
Yeah, if you don't like the objective and authoritative standard by which something is judged, go ahead and accuse your oponent of the "no true scotsman fallacy".

Yeah, that's brilliant.

Hmmm...I don't know if my post came across as sarcasm but it wasn't. It was complimentary.

Good job on the posts. I have enjoyed them.

DrBubbaLove · Feb 2, 2009

314159 said:
The problem is, we don't pick and choose our beliefs, we are simply bound to believe what we consider the most probable to be true. So saying one religion has an "advantage" over another won't make it more believable for me.

Considering is process by which most of us pick and choose what to believe.

Was asking you to believe anything, was simply trying to put perspective on the inequality between Islam and Christianity. The Luke 19 quote seemed to be an attempt to suggest both command murder. That is not true, and perhaps less true of Islam than some of us would care to think.

The OP asked why not Islam, and if not Islam then can I understand that atheist reject Christianity for the same reason I reject Islam, and if I do then why don't I reject Christianity as false?

I am not certain atheist reject Christianity for the same reasons I would reject Islam. In fact I suspect they do not as many of the reasons I would reject Islam relate to my beliefs about God, which are Christian.

And while yes I accept that athiest reject Chrisitianity as false, and I reject Islam as false, am not sure those facts should logically cause me to question the truth of Christianity.
Isn't asking if I can see x is false, then why can't I see y as false begging the question? It assumes y is indeed false.

314159 · Feb 3, 2009

JohnDeereFan said:
And, as I've already pointed out to you (a) this isn't referring to murder and (b) this was a command to the Jews, NOT TO CHRISTIANS.

It doesn't matter who these words were ORIGINALLY directed at. If Christian picks up the bible and sees their God condoning these prejudices, then they can justify having the prejudices themselves. If God takes a strong stance on homosexuality (as he seems to), then someone who reads and believes the book should conclude that homosexuality is wrong (after all, who are they to question the Creator's opinion?). Many people act on these prejudices in the form of violence and sometimes even murder.

As an example:
Westboro Baptist Church

A bunch of wackos perhaps, but they hold their beliefs due to the fact that they worship the same God as you. You could retort that this is an example of "Christianity gone bad", that they are not "true Christians", but at the end of the day, they are just acting on what they read in their holy book. Who knows whether their intepretation might be more accurate than yours?

JohnDeereFan said:
What part of this says to kill anybody?

When did I say it commands Christians to kill anybody?

JohnDeereFan said:
How do these have anything to do with homophobia or anti-Semitism?

I'd say that quote from Thessalonians is blatantly anti-Semitic.

Why aren't you a muslim?

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