Why aren't you a muslim?

[314159]

Hey, I'm new here. I'm an atheist (technically I suppose I'm agnostic - the existence of a supernatural being can't be disproven, but I think it is so unlikely that I choose to live my life under the assumption that no such being exists).

As a Christian, you are most probably an atheist with regards to Zeus, Vishnu, Bahgavan, Allah etc.

My question is: Why aren't you a muslim?

You will, no doubt, have a reason for rejecting this faith as false. Can you see that my reason for rejecting Christianity is the same? If so, why not reject Christianity for the same reasons you reject Islam (for example)?

 

[Quaero]

Is this a continuation on the Dawkin's 'What if you are wrong' idea?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

As a Christian, you are most probably an atheist with regards to Zeus, Vishnu, Bahgavan, Allah etc.

I'm technically not Christian. I've yet to be baptized. However I arrived at the conclusion that Christianity is the faith I am most likely to pursue based on an evaluation of the theology and doctrine surrounding it.

And yes if I were born in Iran I would be a Muslim, why? because I wouldn't stand much chance of survival otherwise.

You will, no doubt, have a reason for rejecting this faith as false. Can you see that my reason for rejecting Christianity is the same?

Yes as much is apparent, if we're playing the the everyone is an atheist game then your point is entirely justified. As such you are an Antitheist. You reject Christian theology for the same reason 4 billion people worldwide do.

If so, why not reject Christianity for the same reasons you reject Islam (for example)?

Because Christians have faith in Jesus Christ, just as Muslims reject Christianity due to the Christ doctrine, so to Jews, orthodox Hindus and Buddhists etc reject each other religion. In fact all religions reject atheism (or antitheism if we are going to be picky)


Members of one religion reject other faiths due to doctrinal issues, many Christians now acknowledge that there is (as the Buddhist proverb goes) The Truth is One, but Sages Call it by Different Names. So to conclude your disbelief in any deity is not the same as the rejection of one religion by anther, for the reject each others interpretation of the divine, not the existence of the divine himself (or herself).

 

[tansy]

Well, briefly, I'd say there is at least some truth in most faiths.

However, as far as I'm concerned, I would not be a Muslim or an aherent of another faith, as I am certain that through Jesus we have Eternal Life, and that He is the way to God the Father.
Also it is through Jesus that we are "saved from our sins.
Whereas other faiths recognise Jesus as a prophet, they do not recognise Him as the Son of God, at least not in the same way most Christians do.
Basically, it seems pointless (to me) not being a Christian. No other religion as far as I'm concerned, provides so much for us. Why settle for less?

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Hey, I'm new here. I'm an atheist (technically I suppose I'm agnostic - the existence of a supernatural being can't be disproven, but I think it is so unlikely that I choose to live my life under the assumption that no such being exists).

As a Christian, you are most probably an atheist with regards to Zeus, Vishnu, Bahgavan, Allah etc.

My question is: Why aren't you a muslim?

You will, no doubt, have a reason for rejecting this faith as false. Can you see that my reason for rejecting Christianity is the same? If so, why not reject Christianity for the same reasons you reject Islam (for example)?

Life isn't life without hope and aspirations. It quickly goes into gloom and depression. Look at our economy. If it was alive and well, why so much gloom and facing economic depression. In a true Christian's life, it is never in depression or gloom. It will hope in God, when all others have long since died, why? Read a book from Richard Wurmbrand or Sabina, his wife or Tom White, head of "Voice of the Martyrs". You would quickly see a difference in the survival rate of a believer and a nonbeliever. How can having hope in Christ cause someone to be filled with love in a hell on Earth? Fables are not able to be kept alive in the deep evil world of Romanian prisons or Cuban ones. The teachings of Christ draw you close to God. God is able to keep you alive and save your soul. Love you my neighbor. God does too. Have a great day.

 

[packermann]

Your argument is a non-sequitor.

Once a person is intellectually satisfied that Christianity is the truth, that rules out all other religions from being equally true. Jesus Christ said “I am the way, the truth, the life. No man can come to the Father but by me”. Jesus said He is THE truth, not a truth. So once a person realizes that Christianity is true, then all other religions are false. It the law of non-contradiction. Two of more mutually contradictory religions cannot be both or all true. Also, Christianity is the only religion that says that Jesus Christ is God. All the other religions deny that Jesus is God. For instance, Islam teaches that He was merely a prophet. So once I am convinced that Jesus was God, Islam is automatically ruled out, as well as the other religions.

But by you being an atheist, you have to investigate every single religion in the world before you can rule it out. If are being intellectually honest, you must admit that the very next religion just around the corner may explain everything to your satisfaction. And this is why atheism is so absurd. You must have knowledge of every single religion before you can rule it out. Only an infinite being would have that kind of extensive knowledge. Since your atheism rules out the existence of an infinite being, I assume that includes you.

I am free of all that. Once I am convinced that Jesus Christ is God, I can rely on His evaluation of all other religions. And He says that, although there may be an element of truth in them (where they agree with Christianity), they are still basically false religions. So I do not need to investigate every single religion.

I am not a Muslim because I am a follower of Jesus. Since I believe that Jesus is God, I obviously would consider any religion that teaches Jesus not to God to be false.

 

[314159]

Why settle for less?

My beliefs are not something I can choose. Even if the Christian lifestyle was incredibly beneficial compared to all others, that wouldn't make me a Christian, because I can't believe something when evidence suggests contrary to it. The fact that something makes you feel good doesn't make it true.

No other religion as far as I'm concerned, provides so much for us.

Can you give an example of something that Christianity has given us that couldn't be obtained through another religion, or by secular means?

 

[314159]

So once I am convinced that Jesus was God, Islam is automatically ruled out, as well as the other religions.

So your rejection of other religions is based on the fact that they are incompatible with Christianity, which is fair enough.

If are being intellectually honest, you must admit that the very next religion just around the corner may explain everything to your satisfaction.

I would say that any system of beliefs that relies on some sort of supernatural being/force to "explain" the natural world is not a satisfactory explaination for me. In fact, it is not explaining anything, it is swapping one unknown for another.

And this is why atheism is so absurd. You must have knowledge of every single religion before you can rule it out.

If you read my original post in full, you'll see that technically I consider myself an agnostic - my primary argument for rejecting all systems of belief regarding supernatural beings is that there is no evidence for them - that is why they are called supernatural. I don't assert that no such being(s) exist, only that, in my opinion, the existence of such a being is so unlikely that I choose to live my life as if no such beings exist.

 

[packermann]

If you read my original post in full, you'll see that technically I consider myself an agnostic - my primary argument for rejecting all systems of belief regarding supernatural beings is that there is no evidence for them - that is why they are called supernatural.

I totally disagree with the definition of supernatural. The supernatural is not something that has no evidence.

A purely natural event can have no evidence that it happened. I can say that I am the President of the United State – a purely natural event. But I have no evidence of that because it is not true.

A supernatural event can have evidence. In fact, that is exactly what we Christians would argue for. To declare that any evidence is invalid without even looking at the evidence betrays an anti-supernaturalistic bias.

A supernatural event is an event that does not have a natural explanation. It does not mean that it does not have any evidence that it did happen.

An event, natural or supernatural, can have evidence to prove it happened or can be falsified. The evidential criteria should be the same for both natural and supernatural events. Otherwise you are approaching the evidence with a pre-conceived prejudice.

 

[tansy]

My beliefs are not something I can choose. Even if the Christian lifestyle was incredibly beneficial compared to all others, that wouldn't make me a Christian, because I can't believe something when evidence suggests contrary to it. The fact that something makes you feel good doesn't make it true.

You're right that something feeling good doesn't make it true....but actually, being a Christian doesn't always make you feel good - it can be extremely tough..., not for the faint-hearted, but if you are faint-hearted, God is able to strengthen you.
I, and many others, beleive we do have evidence supporting Christianity.

Can you give an example of something that Christianity has given us that couldn't be obtained through another religion, or by secular means?

One example is that, as I said before, Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father. In Him, and only in Him, do we have Eternal Life. (As opposed to eternal destruction).

 

[Maranatha27]

First off tansy, I love your signature, all my hopes and desires are summed up it that one word

314159,
Today it would be impossible for me to become a Moslem! You may think im crazy and could renounce my faith in Christ today and convert to the tenants of Islam. But friend it is not so, nor would I ever wish for it.

Before Christ died he made a special promise, that when he went away he would send us a Comforter. The promise was fulfilled at Pentecost, and is true for every sinner, that justifies God and admits thier condition and comes to faith in Christ. The Holy Spirit comes within thier being and seals them until the day of redemption. The sin of the flesh my well up in the believer and quench and grieve the Holy Spirit but God does not remove his Holy Spirit in this age of grace.

You may argue that there are million of people that have renounced there faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and hundreds on this site alone. The fact is that though they may have had an intellectual undersanding of christianity, the second birth never took place.

Another function of the Holy Spirit is that it illuminates Scripture for the believer, A man or woman without the Spirit holds a locked Bible with no key. but oh friend the things the believer sees in that holy book with the guide of the Holy Spirit are of unspeakable riches and for the believer only.

The truth be told, Whosoever will may come, but sadly the call is rejected.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Can you give an example of something that Christianity has given us that couldn't be obtained through another religion, or by secular means?

Forgiveness of sins, reconciliation with God, and adoption as a child of God.

 

[synger]

I've considered it. Not Islam, but Judaism. There is much to be admired in the faith of the Jews.

And yet Judaism, like all other world religions I've studied, really comes down to a list of actions that I must do to be saved (to achieve enlightenment, to break from the wheel of karma, to enter heaven, etc.). It's based on my work. And because of that, it's very legalistic... you have to do this or that, and even if you do, you don't know if it's "enough". That can lead to a life of frustration and fear.

Christianity is the only religion that is not me-oriented and works-based. Jesus already did the work on the cross to redeem us and bring us into community with God. It is finished. There is nothing that I can do to add to that work or complete it. (Some Christians believe that we partner with the Holy Spirit in this work, and some believe it is all the Holy Spirit, but ultimately we all pretty much agree that without Christ's work on the cross in the first place we could not be reconciled with God at all.)

That doesn't mean that I, as a Christian, am not called to do "good works." I am, and I do. But they are my response to God's love, not my trying to attain it. My life of service is a reaction to the Holy Spirit's work within me, not me trying to work my way into heaven by doing the right things or saying the right words.

Because of that hope... because Jesus died on the cross to reconcile me to God, to pay the penalty that I would have paid for not doing "enough"... I am a Christian. No other belief system provides that sort of hope and support.

 

[314159]

I totally disagree with the definition of supernatural. The supernatural is not something that has no evidence.[/quote]

Let me make sure I understand your definition of supernatural. From your post, you are essentially saying that if something has no evidence it is not supernatural. I think maybe you intended to say:

A supernatural phenomenon does not necessarily have no evidence.

Which implies that some supernatural phenomena have evidence to support them. How then, do you differentiate between the supernatural and the non-supernatural? Is an event caused by God supernatural? Then surely everything would be supernatural, according to you. Is an event that is currently unexplainable through human knowledge supernatural? Then we should consider the decay of a radioactive nucleus to be supernatural.

Please explain what you mean by "supernatural".

 

[314159]

Forgiveness of sins, reconciliation with God, and adoption as a child of God.

This is the equivalent of me saying that atheism grants you the knowledge that there is no God - clearly neither argument counts for anything if you do not hold the relavent beleif. You think you have nothing to gain from atheism because you know there is a god, and I think I have nothing to gain from Christianity because I think that there is no one to forgive my sins, reconcilliate with etc.

 

[314159]

Is this a continuation on the Dawkin's 'What if you are wrong' idea?

I'm not so sure it was Dawkins' idea. Blaise Pascal tried to use the argument AGAINST atheism in 17th Century.

 

[Quaero]

I'm not so sure it was Dawkins' idea. Blaise Pascal tried to use the argument AGAINST atheism in 17th Century.

Indeed, Pascal's Wager is a philosophy classic

I would say that any system of beliefs that relies on some sort of supernatural being/force to "explain" the natural world is not a satisfactory explanation for me. In fact, it is not explaining anything, it is swapping one unknown for another.

So if it is swapping one unknown for another, do you put equal credence upon both unknowns? If you do by extension you suggest that both science and religion are suitable explanations for the unknown variable, hence undermining the premise of your original post.

I'm also impressed that we've gotten this far into the thread without a scripture reference, and a minimal usage of "the bible says so".

 

[314159]

So if it is swapping one unknown for another, do you put equal credence upon both unknowns? If you do by extension you suggest that both science and religion are suitable explanations for the unknown variable, hence undermining the premise of your original post.

I mean that science gives a logical, undeniable explaination for something - for example, when Ernest Rutherford proposed that atoms consist of a small, positvely charged nucleus orbitted by electrons, anyone who wanted could view his evidence and see for themselves that this was a logical conclusion to draw. What is more, scientists in the field of quantum physics were able to refine Rutherford's model, by showing that electrons do not behave like classical spheres, but as a "probability cloud".

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that science gives us understanding, and we are able to verify this knowledge through analysis of evidence. Also, we are constantly increasing our understanding of the world through science, as new observations are made, as illustrated above. On the other hand, (in my opinion), the explainations of the world that the bible gives are, in a sense, evasive. We are told by the bible that God created the world, and people seem to take this as a valid explaination of the origins of existence. There is no objective evidence to this claim, and so there is no reason to beleive it apart from on blind faith.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

This is the equivalent of me saying that atheism grants you the knowledge that there is no God - clearly neither argument counts for anything if you do not hold the relavent beleif. You think you have nothing to gain from atheism because you know there is a god, and I think I have nothing to gain from Christianity because I think that there is no one to forgive my sins, reconcilliate with etc.

That has nothing to do with the question you asked. You didn't ask if what we believe is true. You asked what Christianity offers that no other religion offers.

 

[314159]

That has nothing to do with the question you asked. You didn't ask if what we believe is true. You asked what Christianity offers that no other religion offers.

Let me put it another way. If I told you atheism offers you the chance to have the knowledge that there is no one to forgive your sins, you would most likely refute my claim. Similarly, when you say that Christianity gives you the chance to have you sins forgiven, I think "there is no proof that your sins are forgiven - it would be mroe accurate to say that Christianity gives you the chance to think your sins are being forgiven, which may or may not be the case".

The belief in forgiveness of sins is by no way unique to Christianity by the way.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Let me put it another way.

That's not "another way". That's something entirely different.

If I told you atheism offers you the chance to have the knowledge that there is no one to forgive your sins, you would most likely refute my claim. Similarly, when you say that Christianity gives you the chance to have you sins forgiven, I think "there is no proof that your sins are forgiven - it would be mroe accurate to say that Christianity gives you the chance to think your sins are being forgiven, which may or may not be the case".

But what does this have to do with your question?

The belief in forgiveness of sins is by no way unique to Christianity by the way.

I agree, but the ability to forgive sins is.