Why aren't the Deuterocanonical books or the Apocrypha in the Bible?

Yarddog

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Some of these stories are about women of faith and some have a lot to do with Jewish history.
They have always been a part of the Bible. Some Churches removed them after 1600 AD.

The early Church used the Septuagint which contained them. When the call came to provide a common NT canon the Church didn't bother with OT books because they used the Septuagint.
 
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Standing Up

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The idea was that for a book to be included in the Old Testament canon, it had to be written by or during the time of a valid prophet. See Josephus and 1 Maccabees. This requirement meant "God breathed". This criteria (times of prophets) is exactly the same as for deciding which books should make up the New Testament (times of apostles). Obviously different denominations (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) disagree with the validity of a "God-only breathed" book and a secular book. In this sense, we might put the Book of Mormon or Traditions or Bulls. It is interesting that of the three, only Protestants esteem the Bible as more authoritative than man's writings or traditions.
 
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FireDragon76

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Some more expensive, scholarly-oriented Bibles do have these books, usually placed in an addendum at the end of the Bible. Typically, these types of Bibles are used in Anglican or Lutheran traditions.

At one time, centuries ago, almost all Bibles would have had them. But in the English speaking world, many evangelicals opposed their inclusion and forbid the usage of Bible-society funds to publish Bibles that contained them.

Luther actually translated the intertestamental books into German. He placed them between the Old and New Testament.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The idea was that for a book to be included in the Old Testament canon, it had to be written by or during the time of a valid prophet. See Josephus and 1 Maccabees. This requirement meant "God breathed". This criteria (times of prophets) is exactly the same as for deciding which books should make up the New Testament (times of apostles). Obviously different denominations (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) disagree with the validity of a "God-only breathed" book and a secular book. In this sense, we might put the Book of Mormon or Traditions or Bulls. It is interesting that of the three, only Protestants esteem the Bible as more authoritative than man's writings or traditions.

One wonders why Orthodox and Catholics bother to have a bible if this statement were true.
 
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Vicomte13

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It is interesting that of the three, only Protestants esteem the Bible as more authoritative than man's writings or traditions.

They had to. Without having SOME basis on which to base their rebellion, they didn't have credibility. Think about it. It's 1515. You're mad at the Church that even you believe has been around since 30 AD or so (the belief that the "real" Church was suppressed in the 300s was not a belief of the Reformers who opened the movement, but a belief of later Protestants who found both the Catholic Church AND the successor Protestant churches to be unacceptable).

You're mad, but what can you do? You can't just walk out of the Church and form your own. That's heresy and schism, and you don't think you're a heretic or a schismatic. You think you're right!

Within the structure of the Church, you're not the Pope or even of a Bishop. There is a hierarchy above you that, you've always been taught (and you still believe) was commissioned by God and came down by apostolic succession. What can you do?

You need a basis of authority or you're a bad guy in the theology you believe, and you're upset with the Church even though you have always believed that the Church had legitimate authority. You need to find ANOTHER basis of legitimate authority which you yourself can believe is real. What's left, besides the Church? The Bible itself. This is the age of the printing press, so it's more available, and there are things in it, particularly in the Apostle Paul, that disagree with some current Church practices. You have your basis of authority, so now you can stride boldly forth and proclaim the Church in violation of a respected higher standard.

Of course you're old religion, Catholicism, does not hold the book that it compiled (and whose latter third wrote) above itself. Catholicism was not founded upon the book. It was founded by Christ as a group of men to whom he handed some beliefs and precepts. They and others later wrote those things down, but the source of the authority was being chosen by Christ, not a book.

Of course the Protestants greatly exalt the Bible more than Catholics and the Orthodox, trying to bind the Church itself to the one book. Catholics and the Orthodox believe that the Bible is, in fact, just a written tradition of the Church, not outside of the tradition, but PART OF the Tradition, and that they, the Church, have these treasures of Tradition to HELP bring forward the faith to new times and people. For the Protestants, this book is the very foundation of their religion, its sole source of authority. To Catholics and the Orthodox, when that "book alone" belief is pressed, it's a form of idolatry, placing the work of human hands above the power of the Holy Spirit, which breathes to the world through the Church and its apostolic successors.

That's why you see what you see. The Protestants do indeed exalt the Book above all else. The Catholics and Orthodox no longer say so, but at root, they see this Protestant attitude as idolatry: worshipping the book and not the author.
 
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Ron Gurley

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OP: Q: "Why aren't the Deuterocanonical books or the Apocrypha in the (NASB and other "Protestant") Bibles?

A: Because in the process of "canonization" , spirit-led Men guided by God the Holy Spirit, limited the final "Bible" to ~66 books ~ 44 "authors".

The RCC removed them, then added them back in, to support some of their dogma.

ONLY The "66 book Bible" is spirit inspired and superintended!!!

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

2 Peter 1:21
...men moved by (God) the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
 
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Standing Up

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One wonders why Orthodox and Catholics bother to have a bible if this statement were true.
Believers understand that God did leave a written record and they understand why. The real question is why ignore history and include uninspired teachings?

PS. Keep in mind that Catholic and Orthodox differ on a number of doctrinal points of Tradition. IOW, each body has two different Traditions. Which is right, for example, on the papacy question? Depends on your Tradition.
 
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Ron Gurley

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POST #45: Q:"The Protestants do indeed exalt the Book above all else."?

A: False! What is a "Protestant"? The Apostle's Creed is much like the Nicene Creed. Neither mentions the Bible.

I and most "Protestants" believe in the doctrine of "Scriptura Suprema":

The "word of God+, the Bible ONLY contains ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS AND trumps and is superior to both:
1. RCC Sacred Tradition
2. RCC Papal Magisterium
 
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FenderTL5

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..they were carried in Bibles provisionally..
Given the change in the understanding of sola scriptura to a more solo scriptura among many post-reformation protestants - the provisional nature is understandable.
Having differing levels of authoritative scripture within the Bible would be problematic in some circles.
 
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RDKirk

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Indeed so. And those early councils INCLUDED the deuterocanonical books and aprocrypha within Scripture.

Then someone else (Luther et al) came along and took them out, without any church council and without any authorisation whatever.

My personal view, fwiw, is that any Bible which does not include the story of a man being killed by an elephant is incomplete.

Nope, Luther didn't do it.

They were in the King James Version.

There was never any ecclesiastical group that required or demanded their removal.

In fact, it was the late 1800s before Protestant bible publishers started leaving them out--probably for financial reasons--and Protestants did not protest.

Decades later, some groups began retconning a theological reason for their removal, but there really never was one.
 
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FireDragon76

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Given the change in the understanding of sola scriptura to a more solo scriptura among many post-reformation protestants - the provisional nature is understandable.
Having differing levels of authoritative scripture within the Bible would be problematic in some circles.

Especially for the Biblicist approach common among some evangelicals. Of course this approach to the Bible ultimately can render it unintelligible with thousands of different sects each with their particular take on what is essential doctrine.

Understanding that there are two tiers of sacred writings, in terms of authority is not problematic for a Lutheran, as we would also recognize many NT books as not being sources of dogma as well (including Revelation, Hebrews, etc.). In other words, they have more or less the same authority as Maccabees, Tobit, etc.
 
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FenderTL5

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They have always been a part of the Bible. Some Churches removed them after 1600 AD.

The early Church used the Septuagint which contained them. When the call came to provide a common MY canon the Church didn't bother with OT books because they used the Septuagint.
For the Old Testament, it really is that simple. The LXX/Septuagint was (is) the Scriptures of Christ and the Apostles. There was no need to change it.
 
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Standing Up

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-snip-To Catholics and the Orthodox, when that "book alone" belief is pressed, it's a form of idolatry, placing the work of human hands above the power of the Holy Spirit, which breathes to the world through the Church and its apostolic successors.

That's why you see what you see. The Protestants do indeed exalt the Book above all else. The Catholics and Orthodox no longer say so, but at root, they see this Protestant attitude as idolatry: worshipping the book and not the author.

I understand you are serious, but there's no Protestant who worships the Bible. I've seen the Pope kiss the Koran, I've seen folks kiss his ring, I've seen others knell and appear to worship stone, but I've not seen anyone bow down to the Bible or lift it up as Christ and worship it. You've erected a mere straw man in your mind.

The idea of a plumb line, the "it is written" (by OT prophets and NT apostles), whose usage so common to Jesus and others, has existed from the beginning (did God really say?). What is too bad is not the invoking, but that those who needed reforming didn't listen to the Spirit.

So again, most people understand there is a difference between God-breathed and man's breath. This is why there's a recognized and reasonable difference in the various Traditions and the Deuterocanonical books versus the 66 book Bible that has existed for a couple thousand years.
 
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he-man

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"The bible," is an interesting phrase. My bible has them, the Ethiopian bible has even more books. So what is "the bible."

The question might better be phrased. Why aren't the deuterocanonical books or apocrypha in certain bibles.
Exactly, they start at chapter Deuteronomy 28:68 where numbers left off and concerns the second law after Moses admonishes the Israelis for disobedience. Most Bibles today include it. So the better question would be why do some not include it.
 
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Athanasius377

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The books were ripped out because Luther etc did not believe in them! They were fine for 1500 yrs before that though! Luther disagreed with them as did others.

Purgatory, is one that comes from the ripped out books.

It's a pity that people, several hundred years ago, decided they knew better than God!

Actually that statement is false. Luther included the books in his translation of the OT and thought they would be profitable to read but not as teaching doctrine. Both the Lutheran and Anglican lectionaries still include readings from these disputed books. These books were disputed almost right from the beginning of the church. Some believed them to be inspired such as Augustine, others did not such as Jerome, Athanasius etc. The dispute goes all the way to sixteenth century when Cardinal Cajetan who first interviewed Luther also denied they were inspired.

If you are referring to 2 Macabees chapter 12 you are going to have a tough time proving purgatory. This is the relevant passage cited by RCC to prove purgatory. I have expanded the verse selection to provide context:

2Ma 12:38 So Judas gathered his host, and came into the city of Odollam, And when the seventh day came, they purified themselves, as the custom was, and kept the sabbath in the same place.
2Ma 12:39 And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves.
2Ma 12:40 Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain.
2Ma 12:41 All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid,
2Ma 12:42 Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain.
2Ma 12:43 And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:
2Ma 12:44 For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.
2Ma 12:45 And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin. (Brenton LXX)

As far as I know no RCC believes that anyone who committed mortal sin is in purgatory. The problem with this passage is that the dead have committed idolatry which is why they were struck down in the first place. The issue of false doctrine and false history isn't limited to Maccabees, its found all throughout the OT apacrypha. The worst one is this from Judith chapter 1:

Jdt 1:1 In the twelfth year of the reign of Nabuchodonosor, who reigned in Nineve, the great city; in the days of Arphaxad, which reigned over the Medes in Ecbatane,(Brenton LXX)

Now I don't know about you but I would hope the God the Holy Spirit would know which empire to put Nebuchadnezzar in.

I agree, several hundred years ago men in the Council of Trent in 1546 decided dogmatically that they knew more than God.
 
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Yarddog

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OP: Q: "Why aren't the Deuterocanonical books or the Apocrypha in the (NASB and other "Protestant") Bibles?

A: Because in the process of "canonization" , spirit-led Men guided by God the Holy Spirit, limited the final "Bible" to ~66 books ~ 44 "authors".

The RCC removed them, then added them back in, to support some of their dogma.

ONLY The "66 book Bible" is spirit inspired and superintended!!!

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

2 Peter 1:21
...men moved by (God) the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
The Catholic Church never removed any of the books which were in the Septuagint from their Bibles. These books we're confirmed several times over the centuries.
 
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Albion

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The Catholic Church never removed any of the books which were in the Septuagint from their Bibles. These books we're confirmed several times over the centuries.
Unfortunately, that is not true.

I know that most Catholics aren't aware of the history involved with the removal, and the parts of the Apocrypha removed by the Papacy are not as extensive as the material (books) deemed by Protestants to be valuable to read for instruction in morals and manners but not as divine revelation...

But remove, the Catholic Church certainly did.
 
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Yarddog

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Unfortunately, that is not true.

I know that most Catholics aren't aware of the history involved with the removal, and the parts of the Apocrypha removed by the Papacy are not as extensive as the material (books) deemed by Protestants to be valuable to read for instruction in morals and manners but not as divine revelation...

But remove, the Catholic Church certainly did.
Please provide you proof for removal, not moving.
 
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Albion

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Please provide you proof for removal, not moving.
All I can do as a friend is to recommend that you do the research and find out for yourself. You do not have to accept automatically what I and others have told you here about the matter, but do not dismiss it out of hand because you weren't aware of this history previously.
 
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