• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why are there so many atheists on a Christian site?

Status
Not open for further replies.

HitchSlap

PROUDLY PRIMATE
Aug 6, 2012
14,723
5,468
✟288,596.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Atheist typically use the problem of evil as an argument against the Christian God (defined partly as an all-loving, all-powerful God). If you believe that the existence of evil is incompatible with the existence of the Christian God so defined, then you are making a positive claim against the existence of said Gd. You can't have it both ways.
Yes, the problem of evil is the main reason for my deconversion, but not the only reason.

Yes, I believe the existence of pain, suffering and evil are incompatible with the Christian god.

Yes, for various reasons, theodicy included, I find it hard to believe god/s exist.

Yes, I claim no god/s exist.
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The logical contradictions come from the men of the Bible writing about God as they understood, or misunderstood him.
I would rather say it happens more from people reading the bible as they understand or misunderstand Him.
 
Upvote 0

GoldenBoy89

We're Still Here
Sep 25, 2012
26,153
28,838
LA
✟637,215.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Are you listening to yourself? I am always asked to define our God. We partly define him to be all-knowing and all-loving...that are some of the characteristics of the God we proclaim to exist. The problem of evil argument is saying that the God as defined does not exist. You seem to be agreeing with that. Therefore, you have now taken on a burden of proof to back that claim up...you are no longer allowed to simply claim that you "lack of belief"...that ship has sailed.
Nope. You're the one who is saying gods exist. You're the one who's gonna have to prove it if you want me to believe you. Until you or any other theist comes up with either evidence or a better, non-contradictory definition of a god, I have no reason to believe that any such being exists.
 
Upvote 0

Cearbhall

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2013
15,118
5,744
United States
✟129,824.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
I would rather say it happens more from people reading the bible as they understand or misunderstand Him.
That's an interesting argument, and I suppose I agree. If it's a choice between saying that the clever authors of the Old Testament are "wrong" for taking literary liberties that fit their culture's traditions, or saying that those who read it and don't understand the cultural context and intentions are the ones who are wrong, I would choose the latter.
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That's an interesting argument, and I suppose I agree. If it's a choice between saying that the clever authors of the Old Testament are "wrong" for taking literary liberties that fit their culture's traditions, or saying that those who read it and don't understand the cultural context and intentions are the ones who are wrong, I would choose the latter.
Actually both early Christians and modern Christians have information that gives them advantage. We have hindsight, we can see clearer what God foresaw. But we don't have cultural context or fresh memories of the events around that time, plus we have lots of accumulated baggage garbage from heretics, false teachers etc.
 
Upvote 0

Cearbhall

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2013
15,118
5,744
United States
✟129,824.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
Are you listening to yourself? I am always asked to define our God. We partly define him to be all-knowing and all-loving...that are some of the characteristics of the God we proclaim to exist. The problem of evil argument is saying that the God as defined does not exist. You seem to be agreeing with that. Therefore, you have now taken on a burden of proof to back that claim up...you are no longer allowed to simply claim that you "lack of belief"...that ship has sailed.
Let me get this straight: Because Group A has chosen to construct a certain view of a deity, the burden of proof is on Group B to disprove their ideas or else lose the right to disagree? Does Group A have any evidence that makes it worth Group B's while?
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Nope. You're the one who is saying gods exist. You're the one who's gonna have to prove it if you want me to believe you. Until you or any other theist comes up with either evidence or a better, non-contradictory definition of a god, I have no reason to believe that any such being exists.
Vice-versa, FYI.
 
Upvote 0

Cearbhall

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2013
15,118
5,744
United States
✟129,824.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
Vice-versa, FYI.
Why? Do you feel that you need to prove that there are no water nymphs in order to state that they don't exist? Disagreeing with someone because they haven't brought evidence to the table does not bring the burden of proof upon oneself. The whole point is that there's no evidence to be contradicted.
 
Upvote 0

Joshua260

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2012
1,448
42
North Carolina
✟17,004.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Nope. You're the one who is saying gods exist. You're the one who's gonna have to prove it if you want me to believe you. Until you or any other theist comes up with either evidence or a better, non-contradictory definition of a god, I have no reason to believe that any such being exists.
Whoever is making an assertive claim (whether the claim is that God exist or that God does not exist) is on the hook for backup. You're not just sitting back and critiquing our arguments. In this case, you affirm that the problem of evil argument is a valid argument. Therefore you have now stepped up to the plate with making an assertive claim that God does not exist. So you are now bound to provide backup for that counter-claim. That's the nature of debate.

In addition, it is also clear that you do not simply "lack a belief", but rather actually hold to a belief that the God we define does not exist.
 
Upvote 0

Cearbhall

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2013
15,118
5,744
United States
✟129,824.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
Whoever is making an assertive claim (whether the claim is that God exist or that God does not exist) is on the hook for backup. You're not just sitting back and critiquing our arguments. In this case, you affirm that the problem of evil argument is a valid argument. Therefore you have now stepped up to the plate with making an assertive claim that God does not exist. So you are now bound to provide backup for that counter-claim. That's the nature of debate.

In addition, it is also clear that you do not simply "lack a belief", but rather actually hold to a belief that the God we define does not exist.
Do you honestly go through life feeling that you can't make any negative claim unless you've searched every corner of the Earth and have empirical evidence that _____ does not exist? The human imagination is amazing and has come up with countless concepts that cannot technically be disproved, but I feel perfectly comfortable saying that they're just products of imagination unless evidence is presented.
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Why? Do you feel that you need to prove that there are no water nymphs in order to state that they don't exist? Disagreeing with someone because they haven't brought evidence to the table does not bring the burden of proof upon oneself. The whole point is that there's no evidence to be contradicted.
It is not the same though. There is a perfectly reliable test that anyone is invited to perform in order to obtain proof. You can test it yourself, if you are willing. Rev 3:20.
 
Upvote 0

GoldenBoy89

We're Still Here
Sep 25, 2012
26,153
28,838
LA
✟637,215.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Whoever is making an assertive claim (whether the claim is that God exist or that God does not exist) is on the hook for backup. You're not just sitting back and critiquing our arguments. In this case, you affirm that the problem of evil argument is a valid argument. Therefore you have now stepped up to the plate with making an assertive claim that God does not exist. So you are now bound to provide backup for that counter-claim. That's the nature of debate.

In addition, it is also clear that you do not simply "lack a belief", but rather actually hold to a belief that the God we define does not exist.
Why should I have to prove anything? I don't care if you believe me or not. I'm not trying to "win you over to atheism" or enlighten you in any way. It's theists who are trying to convince people that invisible beings with contradictory definitions exist. Those are the people who have something to prove.
 
Upvote 0

Cearbhall

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2013
15,118
5,744
United States
✟129,824.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
It is not the same though. There is a perfectly reliable test that anyone is invited to perform in order to obtain proof. You can test it yourself, if you are willing. Rev 3:20.
I was a Christian for many years, FYI.

The test has failed for millions of people, clearly. It can't be very reliable if it produces such different results.
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Why should I have to prove anything? I don't care if you believe me or not. I'm not trying to "win you over to atheism" or enlighten you in any way. It's theists who are trying to convince people that invisible beings with contradictory definitions exist. Those are the people who have something to prove.
It isn't though, it is God who is making the claim. Theists only testify to what they know or believe.
 
Upvote 0

Cearbhall

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2013
15,118
5,744
United States
✟129,824.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
Does this mean that you have opened the door and He has come in and shared a meal with you?
I'm sorry, I was raised Roman Catholic and I don't always understand the more flowery Christian rhetoric. Not an insult at all. I'm just not used to thinking in these terms and I'm not sure what you're asking. I was a Christian. I believed and was content.
 
Upvote 0

Joshua260

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2012
1,448
42
North Carolina
✟17,004.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Do you honestly go through life feeling that you can't make any negative claim unless you've searched every corner of the Earth and have empirical evidence that _____ does not exist? The human imagination is amazing and has come up with countless concepts that cannot technically be disproved, but I feel perfectly comfortable saying that they're just products of imagination unless evidence is presented.

What I'm saying is that many atheists say that they are not making any claims, but rather that they simply "lack a belief" in the Christian god. So I asked those same atheists whether they concur with the problem of evil argument. If they do, then they are defacto making an assertive claim that the Christian god does not exist. It's not just a passive "lack of belief".
 
Upvote 0

GoldenBoy89

We're Still Here
Sep 25, 2012
26,153
28,838
LA
✟637,215.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
It isn't though, it is God who is making the claim. Theists only testify to what they know or believe.
Except, it isn't God making any claims, it is nameless, ancient men and the credulous who follow their claims. I've never heard God speak. I've never felt any kind of supernatural or divine presence. I only hear laymen talking about things that either happened 20 centuries ago or will happen after I die.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TillICollapse
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.