Why are there so few power miracles anymore?

[ARBITER01]

Absolutely 100%

I've heard people say that they can do nothing but sin. Just normalize it like God doesn't care that they live in complete disregard to his nature and very Spirit within. It's a scourge within the body and it needs to be routed out.

Make no mistake about it, God will do it. His children will be purified. Jesus' bride will be cleansed. But as long as the message is "continue in sin, grace abounds" there can be no true power displayed I don't think.

Sometimes it's desire or the lack thereof.

What are their ambitions with GOD? Is He their true desire or are other things more important? Is their wife more important than GOD,.... their kids,... their grandkids???

What sorts of things are in the way of their connection with GOD in prayer and worship?

GOD is not going to allow any of us to have operation of the power gifts, He will be the one operating them through us, and for that to happen requires our full dedication to Him. For some folks that might seem extreme, but we can see that sort of dedication happening through the apostles.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Sometimes it's desire or the lack thereof.

What are their ambitions with GOD? Is He their true desire or are other things more important? Is their wife more important than GOD,.... their kids,... their grandkids???

What sorts of things are in the way of their connection with GOD in prayer and worship?

GOD is not going to allow any of us to have operation of the power gifts, He will be the one operating them through us, and for that to happen requires our full dedication to Him. For some folks that might seem extreme, but we can see that sort of dedication happening through the apostles.

Exactly! What did the Apostles and early church have that we are lacking?

Commitment. 100% commitment. Those people literally gave up their jobs, lives, everything to follow Jesus. Now it's true that God doesn't call everyone to do that, but we all must be willing to if that call should come.

Now, this is not to diminish the church as a whole. I've read stories of how the church in areas in China, Africa, and the Middle East see miracles regularly. But that also highlights this very thing. Those blessed people are willing, literally willing, to die for Jesus. That is a reality in their lives right now.

In America, (and most of the western world), it's considered persecution if someone sits in another's assigned, yet unassigned pew or chair. We think of persecution as some trivial thing, that God would never allow his blessed to see such horror. We think we are committed, believers in China, Asia, Africa, the Middle East are what real commitment looks like.

Our commitment is to ourselves. If church goes 1 minute over the allotted time we fire the preacher because we couldn't get to the buffet in time after church. Or the sports game was missed because the long winded speaker just wouldn't be quiet. Yuck this is making me mad just thinking about it.

 

[ARBITER01]

I wanna reiterate something here,...

The power gifts,...the gift of faith, the working of miracles, the gifts of healings,... they only operate by GOD, not us,...

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words which I speak to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father, the One abiding in Me, He does the works.

I think this understanding is missing from many in the church. These particular gifts cannot be operated by us like we do with tongues or the gift of prophesying, hence why we must reach a certain point of holiness for The Holy Spirit to rest upon us. He requires holiness, and that does mean a sinless life, one where we do not act upon temptations thrown at us, where we do not allow the flesh to dictate our steps.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I wanna reiterate something here,...

The power gifts,...the gift of faith, the working of miracles, the gifts of healings,... they only operate by GOD, not us,...

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words which I speak to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father, the One abiding in Me, He does the works.

I think this understanding is missing from many in the church. These particular gifts cannot be operated by us like we do with tongues or the gift of prophesying, hence why we must reach a certain point of holiness for The Holy Spirit to rest upon us. He requires holiness, and that does mean a sinless life, one where we do not act upon temptations thrown at us, where we do not allow the flesh to dictate our steps.

For sure. God does the work, we are just the instruments he uses to bring his power and purpose to the planet.

Jesus said "I can do nothing on my own, I only do what I see the Father doing." (John 5:19) That to me tells me along with what you quote from later in John that what is necessary is complete openness to walking with God. And how can we walk with God if we are abiding in sin? Amos 3:3

 

[ARBITER01]

For sure. God does the work, we are just the instruments he uses to bring his power and purpose to the planet.

Jesus said "I can do nothing on my own, I only do what I see the Father doing." (John 5:19) That to me tells me along with what you quote from later in John that what is necessary is complete openness to walking with God. And how can we walk with God if we are abiding in sin? Amos 3:3

Exactly.

Once a person reaches that point with GOD, they must maintain that sinless life. There have been folks over the years that have fallen from that point of holiness by allowing a portion of their sinful life back in, and satan was right there to rub it in their face hardcore.

It's very hard to climb the mountain with GOD again when you have the enemy holding something like that over you. Very hard.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Interesting, so you believe the more sinless a Christian is, the more he will be able to display signs like in the gospel of John.

Is that the correct understanding of what you are saying?

As I hold a similar position I'd like to chime.in here. A person can only be holy as they walk with the Lord, He is their source of strength and victory over sin. But a subsequent effect of that closeness of fellowship is the power that flows from his very being.

In other words, a person's walk with God shows in their holiness and their power. If someone is walking with God (the Holy Spirit), they will live a holy lifestyle and they will walk in power. A person not walking with God (the Holy Spirit) will be living in the flesh and not walk in power because they are not close to God.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I see, thanks for clarifying. Is that view also widely shared among the charismatics in this particular forum?

Honestly, I'm not sure. I sure hope so, but I'd wager you'd get a wide variety of opinions.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

After reading your posts here in this thread, my understanding of your personal doctrine is

• A Christian's salvation is strictly by grace thru faith, in the death burial and resurrection of Christ for his justification (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
• But after he is saved, how many signs he can perform, in order to preach the gospel message effectively to others, depends on his personal conduct, aka living as sinless as possible.

Would that be the correct understanding of your view?

Yes and no...

Yes in the first bit, no in the after.

To me, the Holy Spirit doesn't give us the innate ability to perform signs, miracles, etc. IOW, I'm not given a token license to go about doing things as I WILL, but as he leads me I follow and obey.

I can do nothing on my own, but only what I see the Father doing John 5:19
The words I say to you, I do not say on my own, rather it is the Father dwelling in me who is working in me John 14:10

So again, as I walk with the Spirit (Galatians 5:16-25), my personal manner of conduct will be holiness. From that walk I will also flow in power, because I am connected to the Vine (John 15:1-8).

So my ability to live holy, walk in power, and effectively preach the gospel is 100% dependent upon how close my walk with the Holy Spirit is. And as I walk with Him, when He says say this I say it and it's anointed. When he says do this (no matter how impossible) I can do it because it's not me saying it or doing it, it's him.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

So to be clear, what you are saying is that personal holiness is necessary but not sufficient for a Christian to display signs and wonders.

Like oxygen is necessary for fire, but oxygen itself does not result in fire.

I'm pretty dense so I may be misunderstanding you so I apologize, I'm not trying to repeat my explanation.

Holiness has nothing to do with signs or power directly, because the ability to perform signs and wonders doesn't come from our holiness, it comes from the one we walk with, the Holy Spirit.

Holiness & power are guaranteed to follow the one who is closely walking with the Spirit (Amos 3:3, Galatians 5:16-25; Romans 8:5-8).

Power doesn't automatically mean signs though, it could mean powerful speech. It could mean power to effect change in others, think light casting out darkness (1 John 1:5-7, John 1:5). It could mean signs and wonders. But again, we can only do, as the Spirit says, for it's His will we perform, not our own (John 5:19, John 14:10)

 

[jiminpa]

Naturally, if you disagree with the doctrines of another, you will conclude that his view have no scriptural support, unlike your own.

We are always the protagonist, from our own perspective.

There's a difference. Our position doesn't require any literary contortionism. If one read just the scriptures, for the purpose of letting the scripture mold us, rather than the other way around, he would not conclude that the gifts have stopped. It is through teaching by man that one concludes that the gifts have stopped. Cessationists always have mounds upon mounds of humanist teaching to "supplement" scripture, yet claim to be holding to scripture at the same time the are attempting to refute it. We present the scripture, with a little explanation to rebut the mass of human teaching the cessationist tries to claim as scriptural. The cessationist has to present human argument to oppose the explicit text of scripture. The charismatic/Pentecostal can let scripture speak for scripture. Paul explicitly states that one praying in a tongue speaks to God and not to men, and that it is desirable to do so. There is no ambiguity there, but what is a cessationist to do with that. It destroys his whole argument. Of course, the response from someone who honors the Word in heart not just speech would alter his doctrine, but cessationists have a better idea.

Considering myself to be right doesn't somehow make me and scripture wrong.

The thing is, when challenged for scripture, cessationist have excuses and scholars, period. Excuses are excuses, and scholars led the chants of "crucify."

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Yes, holiness and power does not automatically means signs, i.e it is not sufficient, I can see you are saying that.

But without personal holiness, signs will never happen. That is what you are also saying correct, since you said this previously

For the most part, yes I would say power miracles are unlikely without holiness. Now just to be clear. I'm not espousing 100% sinless perfection after conversion. While I do believe it's possible, I don't think many will ever achieve that. So there will always be an element of sin that a believer must deal with. Someone can sin and still be used of God, but if that person falls back into worldliness, being dominated by their flesh they will likely lose that power.

But I think if they are truly seeking to be led by the Spirit, they will sin less and less, resulting in of course greater holiness and power. But the occasional slip up will happen, they just need to repent as soon as they realize their error and continue their fellowship with the Spirit.

Does that make sense?

 

[tturt]

Sometimes I think we don't see many miracles because as a church we've become more self centered.

In earlier times, when there was a prophetic word or healing, many in that church service would take the time to thank the Lord no matter who was ministered to. In the last few years, there doesn't seem to be much praise or thankfulness when they happen unless it's for us or someone we know. Also, now church needs to be over in 1 hr 5.5 min or some will begin to leave.

In terms of holiness, that,'s been a long standing question.

Answers to our prayers are hindered for a varsity of reasons such as unforgiveness or "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered." I Pet 3:7

But if we're being led by the Holy Spirit, then hindrances such as those 2 wouldn't be there.

 

[ARBITER01]

As I hold a similar position I'd like to chime.in here. A person can only be holy as they walk with the Lord, He is their source of strength and victory over sin. But a subsequent effect of that closeness of fellowship is the power that flows from his very being.

In other words, a person's walk with God shows in their holiness and their power. If someone is living a purely holy lifestyle, they will walk in power because they walk with God. A person not living in holiness will not display or walk in power because they are not close to God.

Agreed.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

Without holiness, one is not really acceptable to GOD. It's that important.

 

[jiminpa]

Just to check, do you understand what is confirmation bias?

Yes, and I do love the irony of you asking.

 

[jiminpa]

As to the OP. I think we have a great example right here on this thread. Any attempt at leaning on God's word is met by some variation of "did God really say," from professing followers of Jesus.

 

[jiminpa]

When you use phrases like "there is no ambiguity" and "destroys his whole argument", I thought you didn't =)

So what in your variation of the English language is unclear in, "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."? To borrow a phrase, "It's so straightforward you have to have help to misunderstand it."

 

[ARBITER01]

You just need to be open to the Holy Spirit. Nothing else matters than being open to be led by the Spirit. Learn his voice. Be more intimate with him. Let your relationship grow and prosper. Spend quality time with him. The rest will follow.

I'm going to back up and regroup on my original response to your statement here.

This is true. If a Christian was to focus all his/her time towards GOD in prayer and worship, eventually they would have a mighty breakthrough Spiritually. Adding bible reading to that would also hasten the breakthrough.

Time is a commodity that tends to work against us in this regard. We have less time available to us nowadays than the saints of old did.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I'm going to back up and regroup on my original response to your statement here.

This is true. If a Christian was to focus all his/her time towards GOD in prayer and worship, eventually they would have a mighty breakthrough Spiritually. Adding bible reading to that would also hasten the breakthrough.

Time is a commodity that tends to work against us in this regard. We have less time available to us nowadays than the saints of old did.

We definitely live in a more time constrictive society than what the authors of scripture did. I don't think the amount of time we spend with God necessarily makes a difference. It's all about that relationship you know.

It's like when I started dating, if it was 30 minutes or 4 hours, every minute of the time I got to spend with my partner was treasured. Nothing could distract me, I soaked it all in. And it didn't matter if it was short or long, it was quality time and time well spent.

I think if we can take that approach with the Holy Spirit, everything would change. For years I would struggle mightily with this idea that I have to spend 3 hours with a faceless individual. I loved God, bet your bottom dollar I did, but the idea of spending alone time with him was a drag for the most part.

As my idea of Him has shifted, that has also caused my time with Him to transition from "I have to" to "I want to" and the difference between those two is so enormous I can't even explain.

 

[ARBITER01]

We definitely live in a more time constrictive society than what the authors of scripture did. I don't think the amount of time we spend with God necessarily makes a difference. It's all about that relationship you know.

It's like when I started dating, if it was 30 minutes or 4 hours, every minute of the time I got to spend with my partner was treasured. Nothing could distract me, I soaked it all in. And it didn't matter if it was short or long, it was quality time and time well spent.

I think if we can take that approach with the Holy Spirit, everything would change. For years I would struggle mightily with this idea that I have to spend 3 hours with a faceless individual. I loved God, bet your bottom dollar I did, but the idea of spending alone time with him was a drag for the most part.

As my idea of Him has shifted, that has also caused my time with Him to transition from "I have to" to "I want to" and the difference between those two is so enormous I can't even explain.

Good points!

Holiness does require our time with GOD though. It only really comes from Him. It has to rub off of Him onto us during those times of worship with Him.

Plus, we have to maintain that holiness while trying increase it, so it is an everyday pursuit. The more time we involve ourselves with GOD in this way, the greater the cleansing/purity/strength we receive.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Good points!

Holiness does require our time with GOD though. It only really comes from Him. It has to rub off of Him onto us during those times of worship with Him.

Plus, we have to maintain that holiness while trying increase it, so it is an everyday pursuit. The more time we involve ourselves with GOD in this way, the greater the cleansing/purity/strength we receive.

Yup!

What I've come to realize is the more I say and actually mean:

I want to spend time with the Holy Spirit

Not only is my quality of time improving, but the quantity of time is growing as well. It's rather remarkable.