Why are there so few power miracles anymore?

[ARBITER01]

This is illustrated by the parable of the wheat and the tares. The truth is that we cannot know by appearances whether a person is a true convert to Christ or a hypocrite who is professing Christianity for other reasons than having a transformed and renewed heart by the Holy Spirit. Only God Himself, who sees the hearts of people, knows for sure who are really His.

This is illustrated by the counterfeits we have of currency and popular brand-name products. One has to examine a product very carefully to distinguish between the real thing and a Chinese knockoff. For example, when you buy a Rolex watch online, how do you know you are buying a real one, or one made in China that looks so much like the real thing that they can't be told part - until the fake one karks it after 12 months?

In the same way, we don't really know if the person sitting beside you at church is a genuine convert or a hypocrite. But there is a safeguard in Scripture: "By their fruits you shall know them". I think that what you are observing in some professing Christians who don't seem to be exhibiting the fruits of repentance and righteousness, are hypocrites who have come into the Christian profession over the wall instead of through the narrow gate. They may even be claimed to have been baptised with the Spirit, and have spoken in tongues and prophesied, and claimed to have cast out demons and healed the sick, but as Jesus will say to such people who claim these things at the Judgment: "I never knew you."

You see, there are many who have accepted Christ, but has Christ accepted them?

Well Oscarr, it's not really a situation where the people are being intentionally a counterfeit. I viewed it more about the failings of that person characteristically.

For me, it seems really natural to be absolutely open and honest with GOD in my prayer life, whereas this person seemed to think it was a real job to open himself up that way to GOD,.... like it was making him vulnerable or something.

After seeing that out of that person, it really got me wondering if other Christians have their prayer life suffer this way. And if so,... then they don't really have a close relationship with Him. To be honest, it was quite odd to see one of my church members make such a statement.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Let me ask some questions.
Do you believe that you and in fact all of us have been healed by the stripes of Jesus?

That particular Scripture refers to the healing of the spirit and the heart by Jesus taking our sins on the Cross with Him. Healing is certainly contained in the Atonement, but it will be totally complete when we get to glory where there will be no sickness and disease at all. But in this life, divine healing is certainly no guaranteed, and although God does heal some, He does not automatically healed all who ask Him.

Do you believe that we all speak with new tongues?

Paul answers that question: "Do all speak in tongues?" The Greek clearly implies that the answer would be "no". If everyone spoke in tongues, Paul would not have said, "I would that you all spoke with tongues."

Do you believe we all can cast out devils in Jesus' name?

That is debateable. It is not for novices, but for experienced leaders in the church. Problems have been created by young Christians who have been in the church for five minutes thinking they can go around casting demons out of people - mostly when there were no demons in the first place.

Are you prepared to suffer persecution for Jesus, the Word, and righteousness?

The Scripture says that all those who live godly in Christ will suffer persecution. It is part of the territory and we have no choice whether we are prepared for it or not. If a person is not prepared to suffer persecution, then he is not living godly in Christ.

Would you give all you own to the church and live in a communal relationship with your brothers and sisters in Christ?

There is nothing in the New Testament that requires any believer to do that. The narrative in Acts does say that some believers sold property and laid the proceeds at the disciples feet in order to make sure that no one in the church were lacking in basic needs. This mean that people had no surplus and no lack. The narrative in Acts is descriptive, but not automatically prescriptive for all believers. In the same way, Jesus instruction to the rich young ruler is descriptive of that event and not meant to be prescriptive for all believers. Also, many churches who push for tithes and large contributions often do not use the money to support those in need in the church, but to support its administrative expenses and line the pastor's pocket.

Not judging

, but do not see a lot of people who will say yes to all of these. When compared to the early church, I am not sure we measure up to what they were willing to do. Our culture just does not allow this degree of faith, fellowship, and dedication.

The modern church is nowhere near what the early church was. It is totally factional, split up into many denominations who have no fellowship with one another, even through there is only one faith, one God, and one baptism. In our modern churches there are many faiths, many baptisms, and probably many imaginary "Gods" who are unlike the God of the Bible.

We started a communal fellowship house back in the early 70s. It was not received well by many churches or ministers. Lacking support, it simple failed. I am not sure such an endeavor would fare any better today.

No surprises there given the state of our modern churches. Each church thinks it is closer to the truth than the one down the road. All you actually did, in their perception, was to start up another church in opposition to theirs, and that being so, they would protect their own and give no support to yours.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This is illustrated by the parable of the wheat and the tares. The truth is that we cannot know by appearances whether a person is a true convert to Christ or a hypocrite who is professing Christianity for other reasons than having a transformed and renewed heart by the Holy Spirit. Only God Himself, who sees the hearts of people, knows for sure who are really His.

This is illustrated by the counterfeits we have of currency and popular brand-name products. One has to examine a product very carefully to distinguish between the real thing and a Chinese knockoff. For example, when you buy a Rolex watch online, how do you know you are buying a real one, or one made in China that looks so much like the real thing that they can't be told part - until the fake one karks it after 12 months?

In the same way, we don't really know if the person sitting beside you at church is a genuine convert or a hypocrite. But there is a safeguard in Scripture: "By their fruits you shall know them". I think that what you are observing in some professing Christians who don't seem to be exhibiting the fruits of repentance and righteousness, are hypocrites who have come into the Christian profession over the wall instead of through the narrow gate. They may even be claimed to have been baptised with the Spirit, and have spoken in tongues and prophesied, and claimed to have cast out demons and healed the sick, but as Jesus will say to such people who claim these things at the Judgment: "I never knew you."

You see, there are many who have accepted Christ, but has Christ accepted them?

This is a sober and good word...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well Oscarr, it's not really a situation where the people are being intentionally a counterfeit. I viewed it more about the failings of that person characteristically.

For me, it seems really natural to be absolutely open and honest with GOD in my prayer life, whereas this person seemed to think it was a real job to open himself up that way to GOD,.... like it was making him vulnerable or something.

After seeing that out of that person, it really got me wondering if other Christians have their prayer life suffer this way. And if so,... then they don't really have a close relationship with Him. To be honest, it was quite odd to see one of my church members make such a statement.

Yes, I don't think that things are as black and white as I made out. There are many reasons why a professing Christian might not be what he appears to be. While there are those who join a church, let's say a Pentecostal one, for reasons other than to genuinely follow Christ, but are there just to appear spiritual when in reality they don't want to repent of their sins, there are others who are sincere in their faith.

A believer can be sincere but deceived through ignorance of the Gospel and a lack of sound teaching. There was a king of Israel whose heart was right with God, but he came short of getting rid of the "high places" where idolatry was practiced. Then there was another king who did everything right in the sight of God, but his heart was not quite right. This shows that a sincere, true hearted believer can have many faults, and that someone with a false heart can appear to do everything right.

The clue to recognising those who hearts true to God is that they are open to guidance and correction and welcome sound doctrinal teaching, while one should have concerns about someone with an unteachable spirit who think they are doing everything right.

This means that there will be many sincere believers in the Word-Faith movement who are right in their hearts with God although deceived by the false teaching. We see the teachable ones coming out of that movement, testifying that they were deceived and that God rescued them.

We can see on this forum who are teachable or unteachable through their responses. Kick a barrel of acid you get acid spilling out. Kick a barrel of honey, that's what you get. Some will stoutly defend their deception come hell or high water no matter what we try and tell them through the Scriptures, and others will take our advice graciously and search the Scriptures for themselves to see if what we are saying is really so.

So, we need to get alongside our brothers and sisters, like Aquila and Priscilla did for Apollos and show them the way more perfectly. Apollos was a wonderful example of someone who was teachable even though he was already mighty in the Scriptures, and became as effective in the Spirit as Paul and Peter. In fact the Corinthians put him right up there with Paul and Peter. That is something to be said about a teachable spirit. Who knows if we get alongside a brother or sister to show them the way more perfectly we may be used to transform that person into a really effective soul-winner and used of the Holy Spirit to show the power of Christ?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Thank you for your reply!
This is why there are so few power miracles.

That particular Scripture refers to the healing of the spirit and the heart by Jesus taking our sins on the Cross with Him. Healing is certainly contained in the Atonement, but it will be totally complete when we get to glory where there will be no sickness and disease at all. But in this life, divine healing is certainly no guaranteed, and although God does heal some, He does not automatically healed all who ask Him.

Paul answers that question: "Do all speak in tongues?" The Greek clearly implies that the answer would be "no". If everyone spoke in tongues, Paul would not have said, "I would that you all spoke with tongues."

That is debateable. It is not for novices, but for experienced leaders in the church. Problems have been created by young Christians who have been in the church for five minutes thinking they can go around casting demons out of people - mostly when there were no demons in the first place.

The Scripture says that all those who live godly in Christ will suffer persecution. It is part of the territory and we have no choice whether we are prepared for it or not. If a person is not prepared to suffer persecution, then he is not living godly in Christ.

There is nothing in the New Testament that requires any believer to do that. The narrative in Acts does say that some believers sold property and laid the proceeds at the disciples feet in order to make sure that no one in the church were lacking in basic needs. This mean that people had no surplus and no lack. The narrative in Acts is descriptive, but not automatically prescriptive for all believers. In the same way, Jesus instruction to the rich young ruler is descriptive of that event and not meant to be prescriptive for all believers. Also, many churches who push for tithes and large contributions often do not use the money to support those in need in the church, but to support its administrative expenses and line the pastor's pocket.

The modern church is nowhere near what the early church was. It is totally factional, split up into many denominations who have no fellowship with one another, even through there is only one faith, one God, and one baptism. In our modern churches there are many faiths, many baptisms, and probably many imaginary "Gods" who are unlike the God of the Bible.

No surprises there given the state of our modern churches. Each church thinks it is closer to the truth than the one down the road. All you actually did, in their perception, was to start up another church in opposition to theirs, and that being so, they would protect their own and give no support to yours.

 

[ARBITER01]

Paul answers that question: "Do all speak in tongues?" The Greek clearly implies that the answer would be "no". If everyone spoke in tongues, Paul would not have said, "I would that you all spoke with tongues."

Not take this off topic too far, but no, not all of us will speak in tongues, but all of us should be able to pray in tongues.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not take this off topic too far, but no, not all of us will speak in tongues, but all of us should be able to pray in tongues.

What I learned when I was still with the AOG way back in the day (1966-1970) was that everyone should be able to pray in tongues, but not everyone has the ministry gift of tongues that is used in conjunction with interpretation of tongues. I think that Pau was talking about the church-based gift of tongues because he includes it with "are all apostles? Are all prophets?" etc.

For interest sake, Paul says that we may all prophesy (one at a time), drawing the distinction between a believer prophesying, and another having the ministry of prophet.

The error that cessationists make, through not reading nuances of the Scripture carefully, is that they make no distinction between personal and church-based tongues, which, when we read Paul carefully we see that he does. And they wrongfully conclude that anyone who prophesies is automatically a prophet. Paul is not as clear about this because he talks about the ministry of prophet as one of the five fold ministries that not all believers are, and yet in 1 Corinthians 14 where he encourages all believers to desire the gift of prophecy, he calls them prophets as well. I think he knew what he was talking about, and so did the Corinthians, but when interpreting his teaching 2000 years later one can become confused and draw the wrong conclusions of when a prophesying believer is a prophet and when he is just an ordinary believer prophesying in church.

 

[ARBITER01]

What I learned when I was still with the AOG way back in the day (1966-1970) was that everyone should be able to pray in tongues, but not everyone has the ministry gift of tongues that is used in conjunction with interpretation of tongues. I think that Pau was talking about the church-based gift of tongues because he includes it with "are all apostles? Are all prophets?" etc.

For interest sake, Paul says that we may all prophesy (one at a time), drawing the distinction between a believer prophesying, and another having the ministry of prophet.

The error that cessationists make, through not reading nuances of the Scripture carefully, is that they make no distinction between personal and church-based tongues, which, when we read Paul carefully we see that he does. And they wrongfully conclude that anyone who prophesies is automatically a prophet. Paul is not as clear about this because he talks about the ministry of prophet as one of the five fold ministries that not all believers are, and yet in 1 Corinthians 14 where he encourages all believers to desire the gift of prophecy, he calls them prophets as well. I think he knew what he was talking about, and so did the Corinthians, but when interpreting his teaching 2000 years later one can become confused and draw the wrong conclusions of when a prophesying believer is a prophet and when he is just an ordinary believer prophesying in church.

You won't be able to find it now as the whole thread was deleted,.... but during a tongues thread where swordsman was arguing with me, he had a moment of clarity,.... he realized that I was drawing a distinction between praying in tongues and speaking in tongues in scripture. He had never seen/read anyone ever do that before, which goes to prove your point, they don't understand the nuances in scripture because they don't have any experience with the gifts. Theirs is just a theoretical knowledge.

 

[yellowMan]

couple things for you to think about:

1) signs were for jews. there are several verses specifically about that.

2) imagine you are kickstarting a new religion. you are going to need some extra firepower otherwise why should anyone believe your message? (especially a certain group of people God calls stiff-necked and unbelieving multiple times). God gave the apostles that firepower via the sign gifts.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

couple things for you to think about:

1) signs were for jews. there are several verses specifically about that.

Where? If you are referring to Paul's comment that the Jews were seeking signs, the signs they were seeking had nothing to do with the 1 Corinthians 12 list of the gifts of the Spirit. Jesus, in his reply to a Pharisee asking for a sign that He was the Messiah, He replied that no sign would be given them except Jonah spending three days in the belly of a fish. Jesus was referring to His death and resurrection. When Paul spoke of tongues being a sign to unbelievers (not just Jews, which some have decided to make the Scripture read that tongues is a sign to unbelieving Jews, something that Paul didn't say), he was referring to the ministry gift of tongues which was used in church meetings along with interpretation of tongues.

2) imagine you are kickstarting a new religion. you are going to need some extra firepower otherwise why should anyone believe your message? (especially a certain group of people God calls stiff-necked and unbelieving multiple times). God gave the apostles that firepower via the sign gifts.

That's not what Paul said. He said that the preaching of the Gospel is the power of God leading to salvation to those who believe it. Jesus performed many signs and wonders during His ministry and still the Jews rejected and had Him crucified. So much for signs and wonders adding firepower to the preaching of the Gospel. If Jesus couldn't achieve it, then it would be obvious that no one else could.

 

[Eeevie]

I’m very new in finding Christ but I’ve seen miracles and things in real time I can’t talk about. I believe to experience more, I have to give more. More prayer, more worship, and prophesying into my own life. And TBH every breath is a miracle. But there are supernatural miracles when I eliminated all the scoffers from my life.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I’m very new in finding Christ but I’ve seen miracles and things in real time I can’t talk about. I believe to experience more, I have to give more. More prayer, more worship, and prophesying into my own life. And TBH every breath is a miracle. But there are supernatural miracles when I eliminated all the scoffers from my life.

Let me step in for a moment. You never have to give anything to experience more of God in your life.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. Romans 4:4

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Galatians 3:2-3

If you want to experience more of God's power, just submit to Him in love. No need to say I need to do more of this or more of that.

Think of it like this. When a man falls in love with a woman, he will just naturally want to spend more time with her, he will want to do things that please her, etc and that relationship will last a lifetime. When a man is only interested in a woman for what he can get from her, then everything becomes a chore and that relationship will fail.

My $.02 anyway

 

[Always in His Presence]

I believe it is a much less complicated reason.

Matt 18:19. Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

We, as spirit filled Christians seldom agree on even the most basic of doctrines.

We disagree on the infilling of the Holy Spirit
We disagree on the Prophetic
We disagree on healing
We disagree on tongues
We disagree on scripture
We disagree on the miraculous
We disagree on Baptism
We disagree with our pastor
We disagree about the need for a pastor
We disagree about things at church

All the wondering why we don’t see anything from heaven.

I say this to my own shame.

I can find minutes, even hours in a day to ‘prove my point’, all the while there are people all around me lost and sick and dying. And I do nothing for them.

But hey! I did prove my point on an Internet forum. Father please forgive me.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I believe it is a much less complicated reason.

Matt 18:19. Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

We, as spirit filled Christians seldom agree on even the most basic of doctrines.

We disagree on the infilling of the Holy Spirit
We disagree on the Prophetic
We disagree on healing
We disagree on tongues
We disagree on scripture
We disagree on the miraculous
We disagree on Baptism
We disagree with our pastor
We disagree about the need for a pastor
We disagree about things at church

All the wondering why we don’t see anything from heaven.

I say this to my own shame.

I can find minutes, even hours in a day to ‘prove my point’, all the while there are people all around me lost and sick and dying. And I do nothing for them.

But hey! I did prove my point on an Internet forum. Father please forgive me.

That's certainly a fair point and part of the problem

 

[lismore]

I believe it is a much less complicated reason.

Matt 18:19. Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

We, as spirit filled Christians seldom agree on even the most basic of doctrines.

Good point. But agreement can come.

Perhaps the disagreement comes due to the source of the doctrines. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show yourself approved. Nothing wrong with bible study study, it's vital.

In Acts 14 there is a crippled man who is listening to Paul preaching the gospel, Paul sees that the man has faith to be healed and he is healed. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

In Spirit filled churches what can be heard- this is a key. Bible preaching/ the gospel/ the word of God. Or is it troubled souls sharing their own feelings and the delusions of their own minds. As the bible says:

Jeremiah 14:14 Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.

From the word of God we can see that those in leadership positions can preach what the Lord describes as false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds. No-one will be healed by listening to fairy tales and lies.

'God showed me blah blah blah'. I must have heard that line from a deluded soul 1,000 times when I was in AOG.

There won't be doctrinal agreement if the church puts their trust in the demented ramblings of sad, troubled minds.

The foundation must be right. For someone to prophesy or preach they must be on the foundation of truth.

God Bless

 

[ARBITER01]

I think we should look at Stephen's progress in relation to power miracles. Of all the people chosen to minister to the Hellenists, he was the only that somehow rose up in power.

GOD has always utilized individuals, and it takes individuals with GOD to show forth His power.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The narrative in Acts is descriptive, but not automatically prescriptive for all believers.

I hear this again and again.

My take is that if the Love of Jesus really takes hold in a community there will be sharing and looking after the less fortunate.

To deny this is to deny the Love of Jesus.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I hear this again and again.

My take is that if the Love of Jesus really takes hold in a community there will be sharing and looking after the less fortunate.

To deny this is to deny the Love of Jesus.

While that is true, it cannot be the basis for a doctrine that forces people to sell their possessions and give the proceeds to the church. The generosity of a group of people to look after the poor people in their group is a spontaneous act and not because some passage in a descriptive historical account makes it compulsory for all Christians to do the same.

While working for the Budgeting service in Papatoetoe, there were clients on benefits, and who were members of the Destiny church. They were expected to pay their 10% to the church, even though they had to apply to Work and Income for food grants just to feed their families. So that church is extracting money from the poor as well as the rich. How is that comparable to the passage in Acts and a reflection of the love of Jesus? Stripping people of 10% of their benefit just to give Brian Tamaki money for rent on his luxurious home, and to upkeep his Harley Davidson? If they were really following the passage in Acts, the tithe from those with high incomes should go to ensuring that those on very low incomes or benefits do not lack the basic essentials and to be able to feed their families. But that doesn't happen in the mega churches in New Zealand. The large proportion goes to upkeeping the large salary of the pastor and the upkeep of the large fancy building, while poor members of the church have to resort to finance companies just to provide enough for the basics.

 

[Carl Emerson]

While that is true, it cannot be the basis for a doctrine that forces people to sell their possessions and give the proceeds to the church

I already made that point - ownership is aways respected and giving is voluntary.

 

[Carl Emerson]

While that is true, it cannot be the basis for a doctrine that forces people to sell their possessions and give the proceeds to the church. The generosity of a group of people to look after the poor people in their group is a spontaneous act and not because some passage in a descriptive historical account makes it compulsory for all Christians to do the same.

While working for the Budgeting service in Papatoetoe, there were clients on benefits, and who were members of the Destiny church. They were expected to pay their 10% to the church, even though they had to apply to Work and Income for food grants just to feed their families. So that church is extracting money from the poor as well as the rich. How is that comparable to the passage in Acts and a reflection of the love of Jesus? Stripping people of 10% of their benefit just to give Brian Tamaki money for rent on his luxurious home, and to upkeep his Harley Davidson? If they were really following the passage in Acts, the tithe from those with high incomes should go to ensuring that those on very low incomes or benefits do not lack the basic essentials and to be able to feed their families. But that doesn't happen in the mega churches in New Zealand. The large proportion goes to upkeeping the large salary of the pastor and the upkeep of the large fancy building, while poor members of the church have to resort to finance companies just to provide enough for the basics.

This is correct, when God moves the poor in the church are looked after.