Why are there so few power miracles anymore?

[Hazelelponi]

I don't mind you posting in fellowship. To be honest I wouldn't even mind you posting your own theological views, provided you do that under your own OP specifically stated as such. But that's just me I can't speak for the others

I gave a suggestion as to why. Perhaps you missed that point when reading my post.

Seek His Face (not His Hand)

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I gave a suggestion as to why. Perhaps you missed that point when reading my post.

Seek His Face (not His Hand)

Matthew 10:7-8 As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked through them, confirming His word by the signs that accompanied it.

Signs and miracles have always been intended to go hand in hand with the preaching of the gospel. Again, to say otherwise is to not believe in the full gospel.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well I certainly did not expect this forum to be a carbon copy of the "sign gift" forum.

But it appears to be, judging from what all of you are saying.

Well it is a Spirit-Filled/Charismatic forum, did you expect us to be cessationists here?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Matthew 10:7-8 As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked through them, confirming His word by the signs that accompanied it.

Signs and miracles have always been intended to go hand in hand with the preaching of the gospel. Again, to say otherwise is to not believe in the full gospel.

Where did I say otherwise?

Clearly, your not seeking real answers, so I'll leave you to it then.. have fun railing against God I guess. (Mark 7:22)

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Just a thought, but maybe your looking for God's power in the wrong places, so God is more silent so that you can recognize what His real power is.

There is no greater miracle than the salvation of souls. Period. End of.

It's an utterly amazing and absolutely astounding thing. God is, in the saving of souls, displaying His nature for all mankind to see.

What healing can top that? I would say none.

I went from Islam to being a saved child of God and the entire world turned upside down, and it was like all the heavens and the power of God rained down on my head. It's indescribable, and it's the biggest miracle of all, for God to take a man and change his very nature where he/she stands.

Please know, God is still displaying His power. It's to you to open your eyes.

I gave a suggestion as to why. Perhaps you missed that point when reading my post.

Seek His Face (not His Hand)

Where did I say otherwise?

Clearly, your not seeking real answers, so I'll leave you to it then.. have fun railing against God I guess. (Mark 7:22)

"Seek His face (not His hand)" your words. You are speaking of a cessationist message. God still operates in the miraculous. It's not against his will to want those things either. It is true that the greatest power he displays is a changed life, but that doesn't mean that he has closed his hand to doing signs and wonders either.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well, for one thing, I never expected there will be people who actually believe that, for example, anyone of us can multiply bread and loaves in our hands to feed 5000 people, even if there is enough faith.

Or that they can stop the skies from raining, or turn water into blood, like what will happen in Revelation 11.

That kind of belief goes way beyond cessationism. =)

If believing that God can still do those things makes me an extremist... then so be it. I choose to believe that God can do absolutely anything, and I pray that I see the day when these very things you describe will be seen by the whole world.

It's funny, you mock those like myself who believe that such things are possible, while yourself limiting God's power.

 

[jiminpa]

So just to confirm, all charismatics believe that the signs, say of the gospel of John (John 20:30-31), continue even today?

That means anyone of us can raise the dead, feed the 5000 etc? No one should ever disagree with this claim, in this forum?

You have not established, biblically, that there are gifts designated to function only as signs. You use unbiblical terms to refute Bible believers on their own forum. Usually when a cessationist comes on here to go on the attack, he or she brings friends to attempt to pounce on us. That is why we are adamant about the rules.

 

[jiminpa]

Well, for one thing, I never expected there will be people who actually believe that, for example, anyone of us can multiply bread and loaves in our hands to feed 5000 people, even if there is enough faith.

Or that they can stop the skies from raining, or turn water into blood, like what will happen in Revelation 11.

That kind of belief goes way beyond cessationism. =)

And it amazes me that people who call themselves followers of Jesus consider following Jesus such a foreign concept.

 

[ARBITER01]

Any "sign" that happened in any of the gospels was brought about through GOD operating one or more of the gifts each time, every time. The same signs that happened through Jesus also happened through Peter, Paul, and others.

Jesus fulfilled His ministry down here in the capacity of a man so that we would be able to have GOD operate those same gifts through us also. At no time did GOD The Father do anything through Jesus as the Son of GOD since it would preclude us from operating in that same capacity,....

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words which I speak to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father, the One abiding in Me, He does the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe Me because of the works themselves.
Joh 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you the one believing into Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, because I am going to My Father.

Jesus laid it out very specific here, and anyone who can't believe this from our Lord lacks any sort of faith beyond their born again experience. It is their fault not ours that they can't believe The Lord Jesus.

 

[Hazelelponi]

You are speaking of a cessationist message.

No I'm not.. I'm not a cessationist.

 

[jiminpa]

"Seek His face (not His hand)" your words. You are speaking of a cessationist message. God still operates in the miraculous. It's not against his will to want those things either. It is true that the greatest power he displays is a changed life, but that doesn't mean that he has closed his hand to doing signs and wonders either.

He tells us to seek His face and His hand. We are not self-sufficient, and it is pride to try to be. You can't seek one without also seeking the other.

 

[jiminpa]

I never mentioned anything about gifts ceasing.

All that I am saying is that signs, for example the ones recorded in the gospel of John, will not happen during this time, until the Tribulation begins.

I didn't know there are any rules against those kind of statements in this forum.

You make a doctrinal statement without the support of scripture, to imply that we are wrong for following what we read in the Bible.

 

[ARBITER01]

Back to the topic,....

With sin developing much stronger nowadays, in many respects it is not easy for GOD to mentor someone to operate the power gifts through.

Satan aggressively attacks those that GOD could use this way and tries to discourage them from pursuing GOD in any great manner. Satan knows how much of an affect the power gifts have on the whole of us, and he doesn't need a bunch of people operating like Jesus down here, it upsets his plans.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

No I'm not.. I'm not a cessationist.

I didn't say you were a cessationist, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I said your message is a cessationist message. I grew up in a cessationist church, I know what that message sounds like.

At any rate, Jesus said the works I do you will do also, and greater works will you do. And signs would follow those who believe. I'm just not sure how we can make the connection between the only "power" we need is to change lives. That is all of our goal for sure, but if Peter, James, John, Paul operated in power while at the same time preaching the gospel and transforming lives, then why shouldn't we? The Holy Spirit is still the same. The ministry is still the same. The purpose is still the same. But for some reason, people want to believe that the power has changed or dissipated.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I'm super appreciative of the responses we've received thus far on this topic. It highlights a number of things going on within "the Church" that need to be prayed over, doctrinally speaking. Only the Lord can bring light into the darkness.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Back to the topic,....

With sin developing much stronger nowadays, in many respects it is not easy for GOD to mentor someone to operate the power gifts through.

Satan aggressively attacks those that GOD could use this way and tries to discourage them from pursuing GOD in any great manner. Satan knows how much of an affect the power gifts have on the whole of us, and he doesn't need a bunch of people operating like Jesus down here, it upsets his plans.

I do believe sin is one of the two factors in play here. But not just sin necessarily, but the allowance of it within the church.

It's not that churches should cast out people who have sinned, far from it. But it should be preached constantly that Christ died to free us from sin, not to provide us a cover to go on sinning and say "I'm a sinner saved by grace."

God makes no empty promises. He never once tells people to do something without then giving them the power and ability to do it.

Be holy as I am holy! That is a charge that seems impossible on face value, but he gives us his Holy Spirit to dwell within and empower us to do the impossible.

I see and hear this every week in my church. "But as long as I'm in this body I will just continue to sin." That's not the point, the point is God calls you a saint, he charges us to be holy. Stop with the infatuation with sin and actually trust God to do what he said he would do. Actually crucify the flesh, then stop declaring "Flesh come forth."

Until believers stop compromising with sin, power will be limited. God is still so gracious and gives us tiny glimpses of what he can do. But to the ones who go all out, fully committed, fully invested and fully led by the Spirit, there is literally no limit to what God could do through that person. But the compromising has to stop. We must hate sin as God hates sin.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they agree?

 

[Hazelelponi]

I didn't say you were a cessationist, I said your message is one of a cessationist. I grew up in a cessationist church, I know what that message sounds like.

All I said is that maybe God is being silent in regards to your desire to see His Hand, because He wants you focused on His Face right now.

We are a nation in judgement, and God's people are going into a trial. Seeking His Face seems important, far more important than His Hand.

For that I was attacked.

As I said, I'll leave you to your railing. Good Day.

 

[ARBITER01]

I do believe sin is one of the two factors in play here. But not just sin necessarily, but the allowance of it within the church.

It's not that churches should cast out people who have sinned, far from it. But it should be preached constantly that Christ died to free us from sin, not to provide us a cover to go on sinning and say "I'm a sinner saved by grace."

God makes no empty promises. He never once tells people to do something without then giving them the power and ability to do it.

Be holy as I am holy! That is a charge that seems impossible on face value, but he gives us his Holy Spirit to dwell within and empower us to do the impossible.

I see and hear this every week in my church. "But as long as I'm in this body I will just continue to sin." That's not the point, the point is God calls you a saint, he charges us to be holy. Stop with the infatuation with sin and actually trust God to do what he said he would do. Actually crucify the flesh, then stop declaring "Flesh come forth."

Until believers stop compromising with sin, power will be limited. God is still so gracious and gives us tiny glimpses of what he can do. But to the ones who go all out, fully committed, fully invested and fully led by the Spirit, there is literally no limit to what God could do through that person. But the compromising has to stop. We must hate sin as God hates sin.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they agree?

Some folks can have a defeatist attitude with a lot of things. As we say in the military: "adapt and overcome."

Sin is something that we have to overcome and control if we want to reach a pinnacle with GOD and the power gifts. We will never be perfect in this non-glorified body down here, but we are to continually seek holiness with GOD and allow Him to keep us as clean as possible.

I believe that was the whole aspect of us having His anointing upon us, to help us with holiness. In Exodus 30 GOD gave a recipe for an "oil of holiness" and I believe this was symbolic of the Spiritual oil that GOD was going to give us under the new covenant.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

All I said is that maybe God is being silent in regards to your desire to see His Hand, because He wants you focused on His Face right now.

We are a nation in judgement, and God's people are going into a trial. Seeking His Face seems important, far more important than His Hand.

For that I was attacked.

As I said, I'll leave you to your railing. Good Day.

Welp, again I wasn't attacking you. I am sorry if that's how you took it, but it was not meant to be a personal attack on you, I was attacking the message as it was being portrayed. If that is what you were saying then yeah I could agree with that in a sense. Perhaps God is holding his hand to get us to focus on what's truly important.

But as stated, I don't think anyone here disagrees with the statement that we should be winning souls. I don't think anyone here disagrees that converting a soul is the greatest miracle.

The preaching of the gospel, from a biblical standpoint, was always accompanied and always meant to be accompanied by the working of signs and wonders.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Some folks can have a defeatist attitude with a lot of things. As we say in the military: "adapt and overcome."

We will never be perfect in this non-glorified body down here, but we are to continually seek holiness with GOD and allow Him to keep us as clean as possible.

Absolutely 100%

I've heard people say that they can do nothing but sin. Just normalize it like God doesn't care that they live in complete disregard to his nature and very Spirit within. It's a scourge within the body and it needs to be routed out.

Make no mistake about it, God will do it. His children will be purified. Jesus' bride will be cleansed. But as long as the message is "continue in sin, grace abounds" there can be no true power displayed I don't think.