Why are there so few power miracles anymore?

[Neogaia777]

Which, when Paul gets into all the details, almost seems like you have to be perfect or sinless all over again...?

So, do you...?

Or does one...?

Because, if so, wouldn't you be working in your own self effort mostly in order to qualify yourself for salvation...?

What is the solution or answer...?

God Bless!

If the standard or goal is to be perfect like Jesus, but none of us can be perfect like Jesus, then what do we do...?

And does this mean we are not saved, etc...?

What is the solution or answer, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Can you quote those passages from paul and we will see whether you have understood them correctly?

That's a bit difficult, as I am on my phone right now, but Paul goes through a whole list of sins in many places that we should not be doing if we are saved, but it has more to do with what our internal character/behavior or inner heart should be like mainly, or more than anything, etc, or is about the "inner inward man" mainly, etc, but it's still a pretty high standard and/or goal/list to obtain, and I am asking if it is that, that saves us or not, etc...?

And if it is, how should we go about it, etc...?

And if it is not, then, "nevermind", I guess, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

That's a bit difficult, as I am on my phone right now, but Paul goes through a whole list of sins in many places that we should not be doing if we are saved, but it has more to do with what our internal character/behavior or inner heart should be like mainly, or more than anything, etc, or is about the "inner inward man" mainly, etc, but it's still a pretty high standard and/or goal/list to obtain, and I am asking if it is that, that saves us or not, etc...?

And if it is, how should we go about it, etc...?

And if it is not, then, "nevermind", I guess, etc...

God Bless!

I'll tell you a few just off the top of my head to give you an example... Should not be proud, arrogant, greedy, envious, jealous, not have any kind of bitterness or wrath or anger or resentment/hate in their/our heart, and so very many more other things he lists or says, etc...

Loves perfectly rightly and correctly, etc...

Anyway, does doing away with all those things I just now mentioned (prior to mentioning loving correctly) on our own, or in our own strength/self-effort, etc, save us, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[Guojing]

I'll tell you a few just off the top of my head to give you an example... Should not be proud, arrogant, greedy, envious, jealous, not have any kind of bitterness or wrath or anger or resentment/hate in their/our heart, and so very many more other things he lists or says, etc...

Loves perfectly rightly and correctly, etc...

Anyway, does doing away with all those things I just now mentioned (prior to mentioning loving correctly) on our own, or in our own strength/self-effort, etc, save us, etc...?

God Bless!

Yes, once you are saved, you are saved for good works. Paul said that (Ephesians 2:10)

But as far as good works goes, they don't save you (Romans 4:5)

To put it simply, even if you don't do a single good work after you are saved, you are still saved. Your rewards will just be zero (2 Corinthians 5:10).

 

[lismore]

Yes, once you are saved, you are saved for good works. Paul said that (Ephesians 2:10)

But as far as good works goes, they don't save you (Romans 4:5)

To put it simply, even if you don't do a single good work after you are saved, you are still saved. Your rewards will just be zero (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Yes. I believe a Christian can't loose salvation because that depends on the work of Jesus on the cross. What they can loose is quality daily fellowship with God. For example:

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry (Col 3:5).

To take one from the list, greed. The modern church has turned this sin into a virtue, a sign of God's blessing. Can the Lord bless greed which is idolatry? Will greed bring a Christian closer to God? God Bless

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Yes, once you are saved, you are saved for good works. Paul said that (Ephesians 2:10)

But as far as good works goes, they don't save you (Romans 4:5)

To put it simply, even if you don't do a single good work after you are saved, you are still saved. Your rewards will just be zero (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Are you sure about that? If a person comes to Christ and never once performs what we would call "a good work" then was their conversion legitimate?

How can a person claim to believe in Christ and never change?

 

[Guojing]

Are you sure about that? If a person comes to Christ and never once performs what we would call "a good work" then was their conversion legitimate?

How can a person claim to believe in Christ and never change?

The key is to understand what Paul was teaching us in Romans 5:12-19.

It is not our individual sins that brought death into the world.

It is also not our individual good works that gave us righteousness.

Paul had to repeat that at least 4 times in that passage, to make sure, we understand.

 

[Guojing]

Yes. I believe a Christian can't loose salvation because that depends on the work of Jesus on the cross. What they can loose is quality daily fellowship with God. For example:

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry (Col 3:5).

To take one from the list, greed. The modern church has turned this sin into a virtue, a sign of God's blessing. Can the Lord bless greed which is idolatry? Will greed bring a Christian closer to God? God Bless

I find that different Christians have different definition of what losing "quality daily fellowship with God" means.

If they mean God is less likely to answer their prayers, I doubt that is the case. =)

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The key is to understand what Paul was teaching us in Romans 5:12-19.

It is not our individual sins that brought death into the world.

It is also not our individual good works that gave us righteousness.

Paul had to repeat that at least 4 times in that passage, to make sure, we understand.

I get that, but being born again means we die to our former selves to live in righteousness through the Holy Spirit. So if a person claims to follow Christ but they aren't living any differently post conversion than they did pre conversion, was their conversion legitimate?

This gets to the heart of my OP, the powerlessness of the church is partly due to the message the church preaches now. We don't want to offend or upset anybody so we tell them, come to Christ and even if you never change he will accept you. That's not true.

 

[Guojing]

I get that, but being born again means we die to our former selves to live in righteousness through the Holy Spirit. So if a person claims to follow Christ but they aren't living any differently post conversion than they did pre conversion, was their conversion legitimate?

Again, it helps if you go back to Romans 5:12-19 to understand what Paul is saying there.

Do you understand why he had to repeat a certain point at least 4 different times there?

 

[ARBITER01]

Are you sure about that? If a person comes to Christ and never once performs what we would call "a good work" then was their conversion legitimate?

How can a person claim to believe in Christ and never change?

For most Pentecostals, we believe in an ongoing salvation, one that you ensure through obedience to Him and His commandments.

In Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus makes this quite clear. If you are not doing the Fathers will, then you are not written in the book of life, no matter what belief you might have.

 

[Guojing]

For most Pentecostals, we believe in an ongoing salvation, one that you ensure through obedience to Him and His commandments.

In Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus makes this quite clear. If you are not doing the Fathers will, then you are not written in the book of life, no matter what belief you might have.

Does that mean they believe its faith alone, without works, that grants the initial salvation (Romans 4:5)?

But they need to ensure they keep that salvation, "through obedience to Him and His commandments"?

 

[Neogaia777]

I suspect, but do not absolutely know yet, that God will hold each individual one responsible for some things, and maybe not so much or as much with other things, and that this is going to be different for every single individual...

But whether that causes you to forfiet your salvation or not yet, or just rewards, I also do not know yet, but God's judgement will be truly righeous, and just, and 100% completely fair, etc...

Obviously, He cannot hold everyone up to the standard of perfection or none would be saved, and then also since He made everyone differently, will probably judge each one according to how He individually made them after that, etc...

Or at least, this is what I suspect, but do not absolutely know yet, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Guojing]

I suspect, but do not absolutely know yet, that God will hold each individual one responsible for some things, and maybe not so much or as much with other things, and that this is going to be different for every single individual...

But whether that causes you to forfiet your salvation or not yet, or just rewards, I also do not know yet, but God's judgement will be truly righeous, and just, and 100% completely fair, etc...

Obviously, He cannot hold everyone up to the standard of perfection or none would be saved, and then also since He made everyone differently, will probably judge each one according to how He individually made them after that, etc...

Or at least, this is what I suspect, but do not absolutely know yet, etc...

God Bless!

If you hold this kind of belief, that there is a chance you may forfeit your salvation, you will never feel secure in your relationship with God.

 

[Neogaia777]

If you hold this kind of belief, that there is a chance you may forfeit your salvation, you will never feel secure in your relationship with God.

I think as long as I am doing my part, and am doing my best, or what I feel I can, etc, then I think I can feel pretty secure in it, as I pretty much do now, or already, although I know I'm not perfect, and may never be, etc...

God will judge me fairly no matter what, and I'm good with that, etc...

Risk and chance is part of the game, etc...

And I think it's much more important to trust God with your own salvation, rather than trying to determine that for sure yourself, etc...

I'm pretty confident that I will be ok, as long as I don't quit, or give up completely, etc...

And God will still have a relationship with me here, while I am still here, regardless, so I'm good there also, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Guojing]

I think as long as I am doing my part, and am doing my best, or what I feel I can, etc, then I think I can feel pretty secure in it, as I pretty much do now, or already, although I know I'm not perfect, and may never be, etc...

God will judge me fairly no matter what, and I'm good with that, etc...

Risk and chance is part of the game, etc...

And I think it's much more important to trust God with your own salvation, rather than trying to determine that for sure yourself, etc...

God Bless!

Actually once you understand what Romans 5:12-19 is saying, there is no risk and chance involved.

You are righteous because you accepted Christ's obedience on the cross as a free gift to you.

If you have kids and you offer them a free gift, if they think they still need to "do their part, do their best" to keep the gift, would you not be grieved?

 

[Neogaia777]

Actually once you understand what Romans 5:12-19 is saying, there is no risk and chance involved.

You are righteous because you accepted Christ's obedience on the cross as a free gift to you. It was never your obedience in the first place.

I edited and added to my post, and as I said, I'm pretty confident, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Actually once you understand what Romans 5:12-19 is saying, there is no risk and chance involved.

You are righteous because you accepted Christ's obedience on the cross as a free gift to you.

If you have kids and you offer them a free gift, if they think they still need to "do their part, do their best" to keep the gift, would you not be grieved?

But what about not giving up, or fainting/failing not, etc...?

Don't you have to "keep the faith", etc...?

Or "run your race", and/or not quit or give up, etc...?

Is there a danger in becoming too complacent, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[Guojing]

But what about not giving up, or fainting/failing not, etc...?

Don't you have to "keep the faith", etc...?

God Bless!

Think of it this way, from the perspective, once again of Romans 5:12-19.

Before you accept the free gift of Christ's obedience, do you need to "keep doing bad deeds, not give up", to remain in the first Adam?

No, you are in the 1st Adam, no matter what deeds you perform, even good deeds.

So as Paul would say in Romans 5:12-19, if that was the case for the 1st Adam, HOW MUCH MORE would those who received Christ's free gift of his obedience get to be in the final Adam, no matter what they do.

Now, if you believe you can lose that free gift of righteousness, thru lack of good deeds or the presence of bad deeds, you are actually saying Christ's obedience at the cross, was far less powerful than Adam's disobedience in the garden.

 

[Neogaia777]

Think of it this way, from the perspective, once again of Romans 5:12-19.

Before you accept the free gift of Christ's obedience, do you need to "keep doing bad deeds, not give up", to remain in the first Adam?

No, you are in the 1st Adam, no matter what deeds you perform, even good deeds.

So as Paul would say in Romans 5:12-19, if that was the case for the 1st Adam, HOW MUCH MORE would those who received Christ's free gift of his obedience get to be in the final Adam, no matter what they do.

Now, if you believe you can lose that free gift of righteousness, thru lack of good deeds or the presence of bad deeds, you are actually saying Christ's obedience at the cross, was far less powerful than Adam's disobedience in the garden.

I think I'd have to do something completely contrary or opposite to very my nature, or the way I was made, to ever completely lose out on my salvation at this point, etc, and I have, in fact, been told I really don't have to do any of it all, but I still have this desire and will to "want to", etc... "want to" always do, or be, or become better always, or always working toward growing and improving always, etc, just part of the way, I feel, in how I was just simply designed or made, etc, and it's a joy for me to do it, or to try and do it, or put forth the effort, most of the time or a lot of the time, etc...

Do I really have to...? I don't know...? I have been told some of it may not be necessary, etc... but my answer is that it is just part of how I am, or how I was made, etc...

Practically impossible for me to completely give up or quit always, etc... just not in me, etc...

So I press on/go forward always, etc... or at least, I always try to always, etc...

God Bless!