Why are there religious people?

[Archaeopteryx]

Actually, most of that stuff was dealt with in the New Testament. Jesus not only healed on the Sabbath, He also harvested and warmed corn to eat. He told us that "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
As it happens, I do prefer all cotton for most of my clothes, and I happen to agree with God that carrion eaters should not be a part of a healthy diet. Besides, the taste of shellfish is nauseating to me.




That isn't necessary, when we have God's rules.

Which seem to vary from church to church and Christian to Christian.

You mean like stoning a woman taken in adultery?
Oh, wait. Jesus handled that, too.
Since I can't claim that I am without sin, I am excused from attending any stoning parties...

I mean like stoning disobedient children. He handle that one? Amazing that the supposedly inerrant word of God required Jesus to step in and start clarifying what it really meant. If he was God's Son, one wonders why he didn't enlighten the people earlier, thereby saving many from falling victim to stoning - a form of punishment that he (as the Father) put in place to begin with.

I don't mind the holding hands, or even the mild kiss. And some of the comedy is hilarious. I thought Robin Williams was a scream in The Birdcage. Although I would not let my little ones watch it. Buttocks hanging out...

It's gay pride parades, it is those kiddie movies, it is running around in clothes a three dollar hooker wouldn't be seen in...that kind of disgusting nonsense in public that upset people.
If you guys weren't so obnoxious about it, most serious objections would probably melt away.

You seem to think that the responsibility for not being hated somehow falls on homosexuals. No, the onus is on you.

I am bound to put God's law before man's law. You should know that.

I don't care. When a child dies because her parents refused to seek medical assistance, believing that God would heal her if they prayed feverishly enough, we don't accept the following as a good excuse for their actions: "We are bound to put God's law before man's law."

You are being treated like any other gay customer who wants me to bake a cake for a gay wedding. I will be happy to direct any of them to a baker that will:
a. do the job willingly
b. do a better job for you than I would
c. would not overcharge you

You are not treating them like every other customer in a business ostensibly operating to members of the public. You are discriminating against certain segments of the public while invoking your religion as an excuse. That is against the law.

The only reason you would not accept that is to cause trouble and get headlines.
I promise to smile when they come to take my picture for the news...

It's amazing how you are reversing this... You're the one causing trouble and yet somehow other people are to blame.

I wouldn't expect anything different. However, upon being told that I have a religious objection, the best thing to do would be to go to a place that will serve you without violating their conscience.

Force is force. Raping my soul is just as cruel as raping my body. Just as rape really isn't about sex, so is this situation not really about cake. What it is really all about in both cases is POWER... You want me to be helpless to resist you...

Presumably no one is forcing you to become a baker. Presumably no one is forcing you to operate a business to members of the general public. In doing so you recognise that there are laws governing how such businesses operate and you are required to abide by them. If you don't want to, then don't become a baker and don't open a business to the public. The law doesn't force you to become a baker or to operate your business to the public. So spare us your tripe about how your poor soul was forced - raped even - by being required to obey laws you find inconvenient. You at least got one thing right: it's not about cake; it's about equal treatment - something you seem to think gay people have no right to expect.

 

[bhsmte]

What you believed before and what you believe now.

Tell me, have you ever changed your mind on something, as you acquire new knowledge and came to understand, you were wrong about something?

 

[bhsmte]

Again, you make an awful lot of assumptions about me.
But one thing is true...I would close down my business and spend my time in jail if I had to, before I would do anything that might violate my faith.
No, maybe you won't find many like me. I agree, we're a vanishing breed...

Not sure if you realize, but your words don't jive with your posts. You claim to have no problem with gay rights and you have gay friends, but you have no problem with them being turned away in a public accommodating business?

It is clear, your support for gay rights, does not include them being treated equally when they visit a public accommodating business, which contradicts you supporting their rights.

But if you'd paid attention back there in Sunday School class, you'd have seen that coming. I just didn't expect it quite this soon...

Here is the problem you fail to acknowledge, not all Christians interpret scripture and or Sunday school, the way you do. In fact, it would appear, the majority of Christians have different views than you. Could be why, there are so many denominations of Christianity.

 

[TheBarrd]

Not sure if you realize, but your words don't jive with your posts. You claim to have no problem with gay rights and you have gay friends, but you have no problem with them being turned away in a public accommodating business?

Oh, I realize it alright.
It's just that I don't think gay rights ought to overstep everyone else's rights.

It is clear, your support for gay rights, does not include them being treated equally when they visit a public accommodating business, which contradicts you supporting their rights.

My support for gay rights stops at them having the right to their own private life. When it means that they have the right to interfere on other people's lives, then, no...I do not support that.

Here is the problem you fail to acknowledge, not all Christians interpret scripture and or Sunday school, the way you do. In fact, it would appear, the majority of Christians have different views than you. Could be why, there are so many denominations of Christianity.

Or it could be why Jesus warned that there would be few that would follow His straight and narrow path...

 

[bhsmte]

My support for gay rights stops at them having the right to their own private life. When it means that they have the right to interfere on other people's lives, then, no...I do not support that.

You are asking for gays to have less rights, not infringe on others rights. The Christian also has the right to be served in a publically accommodating business, but you don't feel the gay person should have this same right.

Or it could be why Jesus warned that there would be few that would follow His straight and narrow path...

What Jesus wants or doesn't want, is all open to interpretation and some don't interpret what Jesus wants the same as you.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Oh, I realize it alright.
It's just that I don't think gay rights ought to overstep everyone else's rights.

They're trying to get the same rights as everyone else.

My support for gay rights stops at them having the right to their own private life. When it means that they have the right to interfere on other people's lives, then, no...I do not support that.

They're not trying to. What they want is to be treated fairly. Would the Protestant Christian bakery serve a Catholic? A Muslim? A Criminal? A harlot? Then why not a gay person?

Or it could be why Jesus warned that there would be few that would follow His straight and narrow path...

Because quite frankly he leads a bad life. Nobody wants to be Jesus I assure you.

"Matyrs are just the first to die"

 

[TheBarrd]

You are asking for gays to have less rights, not infringe on others rights. The Christian also has the right to be served in a publically accommodating business, but you don't feel the gay person should have this same right.

If someone were to tell me that they would prefer not to accommodate me because of my faith, you can bet I'd leave.
Problem is that those who bear a serious grudge against Christians tend to do things a little more inconvenient than simply asking them to take their business elsewhere.
Illegal?
Yes...still, once your kid has been shot to death, it's a little hard to see how legal sanctions can do much about it...

What Jesus wants or doesn't want, is all open to interpretation and some don't interpret what Jesus wants the same as you.

I can't help what other people think. I don't "interpret". I simply read...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I don't "interpret". I simply read...

This is unintentionally funny.

 

[TheBarrd]

Which seem to vary from church to church and Christian to Christian.



I mean like stoning disobedient children. He handle that one? Amazing that the supposedly inerrant word of God required Jesus to step in and start clarifying what it really meant. If he was God's Son, one wonders why he didn't enlighten the people earlier, thereby saving many from falling victim to stoning - a form of punishment that he (as the Father) put in place to begin with.



You seem to think that the responsibility for not being hated somehow falls on homosexuals. No, the onus is on you.



I don't care. When a child dies because her parents refused to seek medical assistance, believing that God would heal her if they prayed feverishly enough, we don't accept the following as a good excuse for their actions: "We are bound to put God's law before man's law."



You are not treating them like every other customer in a business ostensibly operating to members of the public. You are discriminating against certain segments of the public while invoking your religion as an excuse. That is against the law.



It's amazing how you are reversing this... You're the one causing trouble and yet somehow other people are to blame.



Presumably no one is forcing you to become a baker. Presumably no one is forcing you to operate a business to members of the general public. In doing so you recognise that there are laws governing how such businesses operate and you are required to abide by them. If you don't want to, then don't become a baker and don't open a business to the public. The law doesn't force you to become a baker or to operate your business to the public. So spare us your tripe about how your poor soul was forced - raped even - by being required to obey laws you find inconvenient. You at least got one thing right: it's not about cake; it's about equal treatment - something you seem to think gay people have no right to expect.

I'm beginning to wonder how this thread suddenly became all about me...and why you seem to be getting so emotional over what is, after all, a hypothetical question.
As it happens, I am not now, nor have I ever been a baker. I did work for a restaurant...well, a diner, really...waaaaaaayyyyy back when I was something like 17...of course, in those days, we didn't have an abundance of openly gay people.
I guess that was before the aliens got to us....

 

[TheBarrd]

What I actually did for a living most of my life was working in a law office as a Legal Assistant. Whether we took "gay" cases or not wasn't up to me, it was up to the lawyer.
I can only recall one incident, where some guy wanted to sue his partner for "palimony". This was somewhere around '87 or so.
My lawyer declined.

 

[Colter]

Tell me, have you ever changed your mind on something, as you acquire new knowledge and came to understand, you were wrong about something?

Sure, absolutely, all the time. As I grow spiritually and intellectually my concept frames are in a constant state of flux. My faith has crashed several times but it never became a religious doubt, but if it did it would simply be a major change in belief. My point is it is still a belief about reality, origins, destiny etc. A person on this forum say 5 years ago, who was Christian but had a major change in belief, returning to argue againt Faith, is simply promoting his of her new belief.

In my theology that's what happened to Lucifer.

 

[TheBarrd]

You seem to think that the responsibility for not being hated somehow falls on homosexuals. No, the onus is on you.

Really? Even though I have gone through most of my life not really thinking about who was doing what to whom with what parts of their anatomy? Even though when the whole gay marriage thing was brought to my attention, my first response was "what difference can it make?
Even though I would have been solidly on your side, if it had not been for one thing....

The movement went over the top when it started indoctrinating kids....

That is where you lost me, sorry....

 

[Ana the Ist]

The movement went over the top when it started indoctrinating kids....

That is where you lost me, sorry....

Exactly, indoctrinating kids is the church's job.

 

[TheBarrd]

Exactly, indoctrinating kids is the church's job.

Ana, I'm pretty sure I have said in this very thread that forced faith is false faith.
Too many parents have tried to force their faith on their kids...where did you think all these atheists came from?

Trying to teach little children that gay is 'natural' is a form of child molestation...

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Ana, I'm pretty sure I have said in this very thread that forced faith is false faith.
Too many parents have tried to force their faith on their kids...where did you think all these atheists came from?

Yes because every child who's been indoctrinated turns Atheist. Lady if this were true then Christianity would have collapsed by now

Trying to teach little children that gay is 'natural' is a form of child molestation...

Hmmm???!?!

 

[Colter]

A child could be indoctrinated with a particular Christian theology or an Atheist theology.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

A child could be indoctrinated with a particular Christian theology or an Atheist theology.

...

...a particular Christian theology or an Atheist theology.

...Atheist theology.

What?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ana, I'm pretty sure I have said in this very thread that forced faith is false faith.
Too many parents have tried to force their faith on their kids...where did you think all these atheists came from?

Trying to teach little children that gay is 'natural' is a form of child molestation...

My parents never forced anything on me...my atheism comes from viewing the world as impartially as I can. The notion that we all come from a mismanaged theology is your mistake...some of us have always been able to see religion for what it is.



That said, what's unnatural about it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

A child could be indoctrinated with a particular Christian theology or an Atheist theology.

What would an atheist "theology" entail? You seem to be the expert...

Every atheist I know considers what evidence is available and draws conclusions based upon that (roughly speaking). Is this way of evaluating the world around you something that always leads to atheism?

 

[Eyes wide Open]

Ana, I'm pretty sure I have said in this very thread that forced faith is false faith.
Too many parents have tried to force their faith on their kids...where did you think all these atheists came from?

Trying to teach little children that gay is 'natural' is a form of child molestation...

Just a play on your words below. It's easy to paint a picture of things being unnatural when they don't suit your perspective. If love (to show you care) is the binding component to relationship then it's functional, as opposed to dysfunctional. You can find a God and the devil play in those words if required, but functional relationships is really all that counts. Gay or straight the same situ applies.

Trying to teach little children that religion is 'natural' is a form of child mental molestation.