Why are there religious people?

[Archaeopteryx]

I'm amazed how often people here refuse to really listen to each other. Atheists don't seem to care at all how Christians actually feel about anything. Can you say bullying?

Why should we care about how Christians feel about homosexuality?

Refusing to bake a cake is not persecution anymore than a gay baker refusing to make a cake with a homophobic message would be persecution. It's just a matter of conscience and decency. I guess now days that's all thrown out the window in the name of rights for "protected groups".

Baking a cake is also not persecution, despite the cringeworthy whining of certain Christian bakers.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I meant "liberal" as in respecting a persons natural rights. Freedom of speech and association are basic rights. In a controversial issue like gay marriage, making a wedding cake with the names of two people of the same sex could be construed as a political statement. Forcing someone to do that against their conscience is illiberal. You need a very good reason to justify that. And I don't see anybody having a right to a wedding cake in the Constitution, sorry.

You don't have a right to a wedding cake. You do have the right to expect to be treated like every other customer in a business operating to members of the public. You really don't get it... it's not about the cake. Being able to sit at the front of the bus was not about the view.

 

[Colter]

Yes, and lack of belief is lack of belief.



I'm happy to acknowledge what I do believe about life. But you don't seem interested in that. All that matters to you is what I don't believe, which you mistakenly equate to a belief.



Yes, people have beliefs about all sorts of things. Where have I denied this? What point are you getting at, if any?



That's a "godless ideal"? It seems just like an idea to me. But apparently we can't even discuss this idea without being accused of violating neutrality, as though neutrality were some sort of sacred norm.

I think at this point you are just being pig headed. I've never said lack of a belief is a belief per say, I said that an old belief changes to a new belief, when that belief is a Godless universe and is promoted then you are promoting the belief in a Godless universe. If you are honest with yourself then this should be self evident.

 

[KCfromNC]

Rights for everyone except for those who are people of faith (this doesn't just affect Christians).

Why would you think that religious believers have the right to break the law simply because they believe something? Sounds made up to me.

The only reason you support this line of reasoning is because believers get hurt by it.

In my experience, when someone starts making up stuff about people they've never met, it generally means they have little of substance to say about the actual debate.

 

[KCfromNC]

I can understand not wanting to bake a wedding cake with a message on it, but not wanting to fix a car or bake pizza is not something I'd ever understand.

But if you apply the standard of "religious beliefs trump civil rights laws", you don't have to understand it. It doesn't have to have any basis in reality, fact, logic or anything. An employee just has to say they have a deep belief in the matter and *poof* they magically get to ignore the law and kick out whatever minority they want for whatever reason they just conjured up.

You can see why some people find this approach towards secular business law a bit suspect.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I think at this point you are just being pig headed.

I could say the same of you. You implied that atheists should be neutral, but never argued why, and you defined 'neutrality' in such a way that it is impossible for us to discuss these matters 'neutrally' anyway.

I've never said lack of a belief is a belief per say, I said that an old belief changes to a new belief, when that belief is a Godless universe and is promoted then you are promoting the belief in a Godless universe. If you are honest with yourself then this should be self evident.

This sounds like gibberish to me. What "old belief" and what "new belief" specifically?

 

[TheBarrd]

No, as a customer, I don't know that. No where on the shopfront does it say "This is a Christian establishment" or "We reserve the right to not serve sinners as we see fit". It's a bakery. I don't care about the religion of the baker.

If they don't put up a sign saying that they are a Christian establishment, then you can't be expected to know. In that case, you'd be right. They should have done the cake.

So you don't ask the baker "Are you Christian?"
And it's a pretty good bet that the baker isn't going to ask you, "Are you gay"?
He kept his religion to himself...why can't you keep your sex life to yourself?

Some Christians have a problem with homosexuality. So even if I knew that the bakery was a "Christian establishment" (whatever that means), I wouldn't know whether the baker had some religious objection to homosexuality or not. In any case, how they feel about homosexuality is irrelevant to the reason I'm there. I'm not there as a customer to ask for their opinions on SSM, but to buy baked goods. I'm not there to hear a sermon, but to buy a cake.

If they have put out a sign, there's a pretty good likelihood that the owners are the kind of Christians (like me) who carry their faith into every aspect of their lives. Those kind of Christians usually take the Bible very seriously. And it does say that gay sex is an abomination. Because it does, a serious Christian cannot endorse it. His faith is the most important thing in his life, and he will not violate it.
Now, if I were gay, I'd avoid business that have such signs, just as a matter of good manners.
I don't wish to shove my faith down anyone's throat, although I know that there are Christians who do that. And I'm pretty sure I'd be even more hesitant to shove my sex life down anyone's throat.
It isn't nice.

I want to be treated fairly and like every other customer who walks through the door. Is that really too much to ask?

And Christians want to be free to respect their God, even in their businesses. Is that too much to ask?

I'm not gay. I've been with my partner for almost 10 years. If we were to marry I doubt we'd have any difficulty obtaining cake. My brother is gay. If he were to marry I would want him and his partner to be treated the same way my partner and I are treated.

I'm sure he wouldn't have any difficulty obtaining a cake either. There are tons of bakeries that would trip all over themselves to get his business.
And they'd do the best job they could, too. It wouldn't be like "we're being forced to do this against our will, so let's just get the da....rn job over with already." And you get a rushed, second rate cake at best, which is all you deserve anyway, for insisting on making someone who had a legitimate religious objection comply with your unreasonable and very rude demands.

How petty and vindictive. You should be ashamed.

I don't like strong arm tactics, what can I say? Be rude to me, and I just might be rude back. Accidents happen in any business, don't they? This would be one time I'd happily absorb the cost...

And no, I'm not a bit ashamed. If you were to try to rape me, I would not just lie down for you...you might find a nail file in your eye. It happens....

 

[Archaeopteryx]

If they don't put up a sign saying that they are a Christian establishment, then you can't be expected to know. In that case, you'd be right. They should have done the cake.

If they have put out a sign, there's a pretty good likelihood that the owners are the kind of Christians (like me) who carry their faith into every aspect of their lives. Those kind of Christians usually take the Bible very seriously. And it does say that gay sex is an abomination. Because it does, a serious Christian cannot endorse it. His faith is the most important thing in his life, and he will not violate it.

I object to the notion that Christians who do not share your prejudice towards gay people are not "serious Christians". They are just as serious about their religion as you are.

Now, if I were gay, I'd avoid business that have such signs, just as a matter of good manners.

Good manners? It's also good manners to treat prospective customers well.

I don't wish to shove my faith down anyone's throat, although I know that there are Christians who do that. And I'm pretty sure I'd be even more hesitant to shove my sex life down anyone's throat.
It isn't nice.

No one is shoving sex down your throat.

And Christians want to be free to respect their God, even in their businesses. Is that too much to ask?

If that means discriminating against certain members of the public in a business open to the public, then don't open such a business. You shouldn't expect others to bend over backwards to accommodate your religious sensitivities.

I'm sure he wouldn't have any difficulty obtaining a cake either. There are tons of bakeries that would trip all over themselves to get his business.
And they'd do the best job they could, too. It wouldn't be like "we're being forced to do this against our will, so let's just get the da....rn job over with already." And you get a rushed, second rate cake at best, which is all you deserve anyway, for insisting on making someone who had a legitimate religious objection comply with your unreasonable and very rude demands.

Expecting to be treated like every other customer who walks through the door is neither unreasonable nor rude.

I don't like strong arm tactics, what can I say? Be rude to me, and I just might be rude back. Accidents happen in any business, don't they? This would be one time I'd happily absorb the cost...

And no, I'm not a bit ashamed. If you were to try to rape me, I would not just lie down for you...you might find a nail file in your eye. It happens....

Wow. You're comparing baking a cake, your job (if you are a baker), to rape. If you weren't ashamed before, you certainly should be now. Or do you want to aim even lower?

 

[TheBarrd]

I don't respect your beliefs. I respect your right to have beliefs, but why should I respect your beliefs? Your beliefs about homosexuality are bigoted. I don't respect that at all.

It's enough that you respect my right to have beliefs. We don't have to agree as to whether their bigoted or not.
As it happens, I have several gay friends. Yes, they know that I am one of those Christians who believes what the Bible says about it. They know that, while I don't care whether they get married or not, I don't believe that they can ever be married in the eyes of God, and they know that I will not appreciate them flaunting their sexual preferences around small children.
I know that they think I'm old fashioned, and that I ought to join those Christians who endorse things like gay sex and abortion and other such stuff.
This subject doesn't come up very often. Nor does it stop us from enjoying each other's company.
We have had those moments when someone will call me a bigot and I'll answer by calling her a pervert...those kinds of moments usually end up with everyone giggling.

Even Jesus ate with publicans and sinners.
And it's awful hard to show other people the love of God if we refuse to have anything to do with them.

 

[TheBarrd]

OOPS...My computer burped....

 

[TheBarrd]

I object to the notion that Christians who do not share your prejudice towards gay people are not "serious Christians". They are just as serious about their religion as you are.

I'm sure I do not have to quote the scriptures to you. You know as well as I do that God has said that for a man to lie with a man as with a woman is an abomination, and I know that you are aware that this is repeated in the New Testament as well. I'm pretty sure that you know that Jesus, Himself, defined marriage as being between a man and a woman, stating that it has been so since the beginning.
Those scriptures are still there, they haven't gone anywhere. Not one jot or tittle has gone anywhere. I'm sure you know that, too.
So, it's just a matter of, as a Christian, are you true to the Word of God, or do you make up your own rules as is convenient for you?
I am one of those Christians who is more concerned about keeping the commandments of God than whether or not I am "politically correct".
You can object to that all you like. It is not going to change.

Good manners? It's also good manners to treat prospective customers well.

Yes, it is. Therefore, when faced with this type of situation, I would very politely say, "I am sorry sir. My faith will not allow me to comply with your request. However, Mr. Baker over in the next block will do a great job for you, and at a better price than I would have charged if I had done it."
And then I would have smiled, made the Vulcan hand symbol, and said "Live long and prosper."

No one is shoving sex down your throat.

Oh, cow patties. Every time we turn around these days, it's gay this and gay the other, and gay pride parades, and even kiddie movies showing families with two moms or two dads.
If I had to go strictly by what I see all over the internet and in the media, I'd almost wonder if there were more gay than straight couples.
Perhaps some alien mother ship has sprayed us with some substance that makes people want sex with their own gender. The plan is to wait until no one is producing children any more. That last generation will start dying off, and then they will take over. That way they can take our planet without a messy war...dead bodies all over the place can be such a nuisance...

If that means discriminating against certain members of the public in a business open to the public, then don't open such a business. You shouldn't expect others to bend over backwards to accommodate your religious sensitivities.

The law says that I am free to worship as I please, and that congress can make no laws affecting the free practice of my faith. There is nothing in that precious first amendment that says "except in the pursuit of business affairs"...so, strictly speaking, congress has violated the constitution in this case.

Expecting to be treated like every other customer who walks through the door is neither unreasonable nor rude.

Trying to force someone to comply with your demands when there are many other perfectly acceptable places where you would be heartily welcomed is.

Wow. You're comparing baking a cake, your job (if you are a baker), to rape. If you weren't ashamed before, you certainly should be now. Or do you want to aim even lower?

My faith is that important to me. I am not ashamed of that fact.
Maybe it is your aim that is out of kilter, here.

 

[bhsmte]

If they have put out a sign, there's a pretty good likelihood that the owners are the kind of Christians (like me) who carry their faith into every aspect of their lives. Those kind of Christians usually take the Bible very seriously.

This is were you assume all Christians think and believe like you.

Since 80% of the US population claim to be Christians and over 60% are also in favor of same sex marriage, one can reasonably conclude, there are a whole bunch of Christians who don't have a problem with same sex marriage.

Now, some Christians may indeed take their bible very seriously and still have a different interpretation than you, but you don't seem to allow for this.

As I stated yesterday, some Christians may believe that Jesus would not turn anyone away from being served and they certainly wouldn't want to do so in their publically accommodating business. Maybe, some Christians believe strongly in what the bible says about:

Removing the log from your own eye and he who is without sin, should cast the first stone and this belief, causes them to have different Christian beliefs than yours.

 

[bhsmte]

Oh, cow patties. Every time we turn around these days, it's gay this and gay the other, and gay pride parades, and even kiddie movies showing families with two moms or two dads.

Wow, the hatred is really starting to come out.

Does how other people choose to live their lives, somehow force you to live your life differently? Or, do you still have the freedom to live your life as you choose?

The law says that I am free to worship as I please, and that congress can make no laws affecting the free practice of my faith. There is nothing in that precious first amendment that says "except in the pursuit of business affairs"...so, strictly speaking, congress has violated the constitution in this case.

Yes indeed.

Are you free to worship the God of your choosing?
Are you free to attend the church of your choosing?
Is your church free to accept or reject people as members freely?
Is your private school allowed to accept or reject whoever they wish?
Is your private club allowed to accept or reject whoever they wish?
Are you allowed to pick your friends freely?
Are you allowed to not socialize or not invite people in your home if you wish?

The above opportunities to discriminate don't appear to satisfy some and they need to extend discrimination, to a public accommodating business they voluntarily opened to the public.

Trying to force someone to comply with your demands when there are many other perfectly acceptable places where you would be heartily welcomed is.

I would love to see your attitude if Christians were readily refused service by muslim or hindu business owners, based on the business owners religious beliefs.

My faith is that important to me. I am not ashamed of that fact.
Maybe it is your aim that is out of kilter, here.

And you have many freedoms to practice your faith and discriminate against those who you disagree with, as I have pointed out above. You just can't do so in one area; public accommodating businesses, deal with it.

 

[skylark1]

I would love to see your attitude if Christians were readily refused service by muslim or hindu business owners, based on the business owners religious beliefs.

Or if Jews were refused service ....

Or their businesses boycotted ....

 

[Cearbhall]

You know that the bakery is a Christian establishment. You know that Christians have a problem with gay.

What? I'm trying to think of a single Christian that I know "in real life" who in the past 5 years or so has said that they're against same-sex marriage (or at least equal couple rights under another name), much less who thinks that they're all going to Hell...much less someone whose concept of Christianity is turning away customers based on such things. The topic comes up all the time, and I don't think I've ever heard that. And I've been in Catholic schools (and now university) all my life. Of course, support for it is negatively correlated with age.

This is all anecdotal evidence, though, so here are the nationwide statistics for support of same-sex marriage in a lovely Wikipedia chart that compiles statistics from various sources. 52% of Catholics. 57% of white mainline Protestants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_of_same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States#By_religion

And this is support for same-sex marriage, meaning that the percentage who are against their rights and behaviors as a whole is lower, and the percentage who would actually turn them away is lower still. I now operate under the assumption that any Christian I meet who's middle age or younger is fine with it. So no, people aren't supposed to "know" that the bakers are part of a dwindling minority.

 

[Colter]

I could say the same of you. You implied that atheists should be neutral, but never argued why, and you defined 'neutrality' in such a way that it is impossible for us to discuss these matters 'neutrally' anyway.



This sounds like gibberish to me. What "old belief" and what "new belief" specifically?

What you believed before and what you believe now.

 

[TheBarrd]

Wow, the hatred is really starting to come out.

Does how other people choose to live their lives, somehow force you to live your life differently? Or, do you still have the freedom to live your life as you choose?

I have to assume that you have not read everything I've posted. In my private life, I have several gay friends. They know that I'm a Christian, and I know that they are gay, and yet, we still get along just fine.
And you know what? I have even baked a birthday cake for one gay woman's daughter,
Of course, no one was trying to force me to do it against my will.
I do not like strong arm tactics. I'm much more reasonable when asked "would you please?" than if I am told "you have to, you have no choice...now get to it or else!"

Yes indeed.

Are you free to worship the God of your choosing?
Are you free to attend the church of your choosing?
Is your church free to accept or reject people as members freely?
Is your private school allowed to accept or reject whoever they wish?
Is your private club allowed to accept or reject whoever they wish?
Are you allowed to pick your friends freely?
Are you allowed to not socialize or not invite people in your home if you wish?

The above opportunities to discriminate don't appear to satisfy some and they need to extend discrimination, to a public accommodating business they voluntarily opened to the public.

The church I go to accepts everyone who walks through the door. Jesus came to save sinners...or didn't you know that?
I don't have a private school. However, where I live, just about everyone in town is Christian and we do still have school prayer, God in the courthouse, the nativity in our public park at Christmas, and every year everyone gets together and has a day of prayer.
I don't have a private club, although I do have a membership in the YMCA.
Yes, I may pick my friends freely...and I'd bet you'd be surprised if you knew some of them. And ditto the people who I socialize with and who tramp in and out of this house.
You make an awful lot of assumptions about me...

I would love to see your attitude if Christians were readily refused service by muslim or hindu business owners, based on the business owners religious beliefs.

You act like you think that hasn't happened. We've had Muslim cab drivers who have refused to take a fare carrying wine, for instance.
Why don't you go to a restaurant owned by Muslims, and ask for pork chops?

And you have many freedoms to practice your faith and discriminate against those who you disagree with, as I have pointed out above. You just can't do so in one area; public accommodating businesses, deal with it.

Again, you make an awful lot of assumptions about me.
But one thing is true...I would close down my business and spend my time in jail if I had to, before I would do anything that might violate my faith.
No, maybe you won't find many like me. I agree, we're a vanishing breed...

But if you'd paid attention back there in Sunday School class, you'd have seen that coming. I just didn't expect it quite this soon...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I'm sure I do not have to quote the scriptures to you. You know as well as I do that God has said that for a man to lie with a man as with a woman is an abomination, and I know that you are aware that this is repeated in the New Testament as well. I'm pretty sure that you know that Jesus, Himself, defined marriage as being between a man and a woman, stating that it has been so since the beginning. Those scriptures are still there, they haven't gone anywhere. Not one jot or tittle has gone anywhere. I'm sure you know that, too.

And I'm sure I do not have to quote the countless other "sins" of the Bible that you happily ignore, such as wearing clothes woven from two different fabrics or picking up sticks on the sabbath. Those scriptures are still there also. Not one jot or tittle has gone anywhere.

So, it's just a matter of, as a Christian, are you true to the Word of God, or do you make up your own rules as is convenient for you?

Those aren't mutually exclusive categories: just make your own rules and claim that it's the Word of God.

I am one of those Christians who is more concerned about keeping the commandments of God than whether or not I am "politically correct".
You can object to that all you like. It is not going to change.

I sincerely hope that you're not serious about "keeping the commandments of God," since that may require you to do some very immoral things.

Yes, it is. Therefore, when faced with this type of situation, I would very politely say, "I am sorry sir. My faith will not allow me to comply with your request. However, Mr. Baker over in the next block will do a great job for you, and at a better price than I would have charged if I had done it."
And then I would have smiled, made the Vulcan hand symbol, and said "Live long and prosper."

Sugarcoating it doesn't help.

Oh, cow patties. Every time we turn around these days, it's gay this and gay the other, and gay pride parades, and even kiddie movies showing families with two moms or two dads.

And what's wrong with that? How is that shoving sex down your throat? You aren't suggesting that the mere depiction of a gay couple in a movie is tantamount to shoving sex down your throat? When you see a heterosexual couple holding hands in the park do you walk up to them and say, "Stop shoving sex down my throat"?

If I had to go strictly by what I see all over the internet and in the media, I'd almost wonder if there were more gay than straight couples.
Perhaps some alien mother ship has sprayed us with some substance that makes people want sex with their own gender. The plan is to wait until no one is producing children any more. That last generation will start dying off, and then they will take over. That way they can take our planet without a messy war...dead bodies all over the place can be such a nuisance...

Don't know what to make of this.

The law says that I am free to worship as I please, and that congress can make no laws affecting the free practice of my faith. There is nothing in that precious first amendment that says "except in the pursuit of business affairs"...so, strictly speaking, congress has violated the constitution in this case.

Your right to worship is not limitless. It does not afford you the privilege to violate laws you find inconvenient by invoking a religious exemption. In this particular case, you have opted to operate a business to members of the public, and you are therefore bound to the laws governing such businesses.

Trying to force someone to comply with your demands when there are many other perfectly acceptable places where you would be heartily welcomed is.

What demands? All I expect as a customer is to be treated like all other customers who enter that place of business.

My faith is that important to me. I am not ashamed of that fact.

I know it's important to you. But it's not important to me, nor does it need to be. I'm not there to hear a sermon. I'm there to buy baked goods. Your faith is the last thing on my mind.

Maybe it is your aim that is out of kilter, here.

You compared the act of baking to rape. Perhaps yours is out of kilter, by a wide margin.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

What you believed before and what you believe now.

And what is that specifically? I'm not convinced that you know enough about what I believed before and what I believe now. You're so fixated by the label 'atheist' and what you think that entails that you barely know anything else about me or anyone who identifies as an atheist or agnostic on this forum. Of course you may prove me wrong by demonstrating an intimate knowledge of what I once believed and what I now believe. A strawman or caricature (e.g., "godless ideals," "doctrines of doubt," or some other flimflam) will not be sufficient.

 

[TheBarrd]

And I'm sure I do not have to quote the countless other "sins" of the Bible that you happily ignore, such as wearing clothes woven from two different fabrics or picking up sticks on the sabbath. Those scriptures are still there also. Not one jot or tittle has gone anywhere.

Actually, most of that stuff was dealt with in the New Testament. Jesus not only healed on the Sabbath, He also harvested and warmed corn to eat. He told us that "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
As it happens, I do prefer all cotton for most of my clothes, and I happen to agree with God that carrion eaters should not be a part of a healthy diet. Besides, the taste of shellfish is nauseating to me.

Those aren't mutually exclusive categories: just make your own rules and claim that it's the Word of God.

That isn't necessary, when we have God's rules.

I sincerely hope that you're not serious about "keeping the commandments of God," since that may require you to do some very immoral things.

You mean like stoning a woman taken in adultery?
Oh, wait. Jesus handled that, too.
Since I can't claim that I am without sin, I am excused from attending any stoning parties...

Sugarcoating it doesn't help.

So, sue me.
Oh, yeah....

And what's wrong with that? How is that shoving sex down your throat? You aren't suggesting that the mere depiction of a gay couple in a movie is tantamount to shoving sex down your throat? When you see a heterosexual couple holding hands in the park do you walk up to them and say, "Stop shoving sex down my throat"?

I don't mind the holding hands, or even the mild kiss. And some of the comedy is hilarious. I thought Robin Williams was a scream in The Birdcage. Although I would not let my little ones watch it. Buttocks hanging out...

It's gay pride parades, it is those kiddie movies, it is running around in clothes a three dollar hooker wouldn't be seen in...that kind of disgusting nonsense in public that upset people.
If you guys weren't so obnoxious about it, most serious objections would probably melt away.

Don't know what to make of this.

That's just me trying to figure out where the heck all these homosexuals are coming from.
An alien take over is the best I got...

Your right to worship is not limitless. It does not afford you the privilege to violate laws you find inconvenient by invoking a religious exemption. In this particular case, you have opted to operate a business to members of the public, and you are therefore bound to the laws governing such businesses.

I am bound to put God's law before man's law. You should know that.

What demands? All I expect as a customer is to be treated like all other customers who enter that place of business.

You are being treated like any other gay customer who wants me to bake a cake for a gay wedding. I will be happy to direct any of them to a baker that will:
a. do the job willingly
b. do a better job for you than I would
c. would not overcharge you

The only reason you would not accept that is to cause trouble and get headlines.
I promise to smile when they come to take my picture for the news...

I know it's important to you. But it's not important to me, nor does it need to be. I'm not there to hear a sermon. I'm there to buy baked goods. Your faith is the last thing on my mind.

I wouldn't expect anything different. However, upon being told that I have a religious objection, the best thing to do would be to go to a place that will serve you without violating their conscience.

You compared the act of baking to rape. Perhaps yours is out of kilter, by a wide margin.

Force is force. Raping my soul is just as cruel as raping my body. Just as rape really isn't about sex, so is this situation not really about cake. What it is really all about in both cases is POWER... You want me to be helpless to resist you...