Why are there religious people?

[TheBarrd]

Hold on hold on now I know what you're getting at but let's give her at least that much respect. Even after the child analogy thing.

Why thank you Grim.
I do appreciate you for this.
I...uh...think......

 

[TheBarrd]

Please stop pretending that you're the only person who has ever offered help to women in this situation. You're not.

No, thank God, I'm not. I'm only one volunteer among thousands.

It seems you only care about their feelings (1) after they've had an abortion and (2) only if they feel guilt and shame.

Actually, an abortion alternative center's basic function is to be there for women in crisis pregnancies to give them the help and support that they need in order to have their babies.
Most of the women we see come to us loaded down with guilt and shame, heaped on them by their families and friends. We help them to overcome these feelings.

That isn't accurate. See the link provided.

I didn't see any link, not that it matters. I know what I've done and what I haven't done, thank you.

 

[TheBarrd]

So, your understanding of fetal development is on the level of a child?

As Fire Dragon put it, it does have a way of cutting through sophistry.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The telos of a tadpole is to be a frog and make more frogs. A tadpole is a stage in the development cycle of a frog. By killing an embryo, the natural development in the life cycle of a human person is ended. That is what traditionally Christians object to.

But the zygote is not a person. Neither are the gametes from which the zygote formed.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, thank God, I'm not. I'm only one volunteer among thousands.


Actually, an abortion alternative center's basic function is to be there for women in crisis pregnancies to give them the help and support that they need in order to have their babies.
Most of the women we see come to us loaded down with guilt and shame, heaped on them by their families and friends. We help them to overcome these feelings.

Unless they decide to obtain an abortion, right?

 

[TheBarrd]

Okay, lads...oops, and lass...I've about had it with this abortion debate.
The horse has long since stopped stinking, and even it's poor bones have gone to dust.
I've been involved in this battle for life since I was a girl in my thirties.....and now I am an old lady in my sixties. We are losing this fight which really shouldn't have come as such a surprise, as our precious Christianity keeps getting pushed back into the shadows...b

But then, we should have expected that, too. We have the prophecy, I guess we just never expected to see it in our time.
It is given unto the beast to make war wit the saints...that's Christians, folks...and overcome them.
So, fear not, you are slated to win your battle against the likes of me.
You may live to see the church driven underground, or perhaps done away with completely...

Just don't get too comfy.
The story isn't over yet....

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Okay, lads...oops, and lass...I've about had it with this abortion debate.

Oh, golly gee, since you're fed up with it, I guess we all better stop discussing it. Who raised the issue anyway, even though it had no relation to the OP? Barrd, any ideas?

 

[TheBarrd]

Unless they decide to obtain an abortion, right?

No, Archaeopteryx...at that point, we are the ONLY ones there for her. Well, unless you count a mental health clinic.
All those nice, helpful "planned parenthood" types who "just want to help you put all of this behind you" seem to vanish in the mist once the abortion is over...and the friends and family who pushed her into the clinic in the first place are now heaping even more shame on her.
They come to the center looking for someone who will understand...they can't think of anywhere else to go.
And we have counselors who can help them.
We are trained for what we do, and I believe that we provide a very necessary service.
Dear man, I could tell you horror stories...but you wouldn't be interested would you. She made her choice...the aftermath isn't really important...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, Archaeopteryx...at that point, we are the ONLY ones there for her. Well, unless you count a mental health clinic.
All those nice, helpful "planned parenthood" types who "just want to help you put all of this behind you" seem to vanish in the mist once the abortion is over...

I already demonstrated that this is factually untrue. You didn't want to click the link, remember, so how would you know?

They come to the center looking for someone who will understand...they can't think of anywhere else to go.
And we have counselors who can help them.
We are trained for what we do, and I believe that we provide a very necessary service.

What does this training involve?

 

[HitchSlap]

As Fire Dragon put it, it does have a way of cutting through sophistry.

But a simple understanding is not necessarily the best. Dunning-Kruger effect comes to mind here.
I don't think any of us are interested in "murdering" babies. Shame on you for suggesting so.
It's a complex issue, one that deserves due diligence and education regarding the complexities and nuances.
Personally, I'm not a fan of abortion, yet I don't think it's my place to tell another human what they can or cannot do with their own body. I'm more comfortable with first term abortions, and extremely uncomfortable with late term abortions.
We won't even get into the fact that by 2050, the worlds population will be about ten billion people!

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's kinda hard to take you seriously when you throw such nonsense at me.



Would it make you happier if you knew that, back in the sixties, I was one of those who protested the war in Viet Nam? Would you like to hear about how my best friend's brother was killed in that war?
Suppose I told you that my Dad, who was a hero in WWII, told us that if it went on long enough that his sons...my two kid brothers...should be in danger of being drafted, that he personally would move his family into Canada...and that he had already made some arrangements to do just that.



Did you miss where I told you that I have actually taken these girls into my own home, and spent my own money on them? I am not the one "picking on" them.

For one...stop with the "pro choice nuts" comments... there's no need for insults.

For two, yes, you are picking on them...every time you go somewhere, like this, and call them murderers. Maybe you just feel guilty about it and want to repair the damage you've done...but you'll get no pat on the back from me.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Once again, your attitude is condescending. I really wish you wouldn't do that.
Of course, those eggs don't fly...however the parents stay very close to that nest, and...oh, wait! We have baby birds this morning!

Well stop with the incorrect analogies. Do you expect me to really discuss eggs as if they were birds? I wouldn't do anything other than mock that.

You wouldn't operate very well or for very long without those bits. You'd need help with eliminating urine without your kidneys, you'd need to be led around without your eyes, you'd have some problems breathing with only one lung, and you'd be deaf without your ears. Although you'd be fine without your appendix, that is true.

I can still operate. That was the point. Organs can be taken out or malfunction and the body can still operate. The difficulty depends.

I notice you did not put the heart on your list...

Sigh. You don't want me to condescend. So next point.

What, Grim? Pointing out that a newborn is helpless? If no one picks him up shortly after birth, he will die. But what of it? It's not really a person yet, is it?

You're not serious.

Actually, I don't intend to go on with this too much longer.
Frankly, it's all old hat, and getting quite boring.

Well allow me

I do love a dash of sarcasm....

I prefer mine shaken.

I would have thought it was obvious. A woman can plot her "fertile time" and simply avoid having sex during those few days. It's not as if anyone is going to load all the men up in a spaceship and take them away...there will be men for her to....uh....love...afterwards...

It is. That's why I wondered what the point was.

Again with the condescending attitude.
I'm letting you know...the person showed up before the woman even knew she was pregnant.

A fertilized egg isn't a person. Neither is arguably the first 3 months.

I don't drink.

I meant to say "I rarely drink" I forgot the 'I' I'm a social drinker but even then I'm often designated driver so I usually don't drink.

I'm proud of you, Grim.
It's good to know that you do have some respect for life...

Yes, we all get one.

I don't think you quite get it.

While it's a irony slap; it's valid. I'd rather it be legal and done professionally than not. Which one do you think is better? Because either way you like it abortion will happen... And legal is better.

Oh, Grim...in those very rare cases where carrying to term would threaten the mother's life, of course, the decision must be between the family and their doctor. Of course, it always was.

Nearly 300 thousand isn't "rare". Millions die around the world from giving birth. Research on it.

PPD? Do you mean "post partum depression"? Hun, most of us have a bout of that after the baby is born. It is usually not serious, and goes away rather quickly. A new Mom doesn't really have time to sit around and be depressed...

You're not serious.

Again, in those vanishingly rare cases where someone gets pregnant by rape, the decision ought to be between her and her doctor.

Exactly.

I will tell you, though, there are a few women who chose to keep the baby, and the decision brought her great joy. She sees her little girl as the good thing that came from her suffering.

Ohoho what a disgusting thought. I know you were going for a silver lining type description but I can't find any solace in that.

No one would expect a woman with HIV to try to carry a child. Grim, you're reaching, here. I'm not sure someone with HIV could even get pregnant...

HIV doesn't cause infertility. I don't know how you don't know that...

Exactly.

Nobody wants to shut out a woman's right to control her own life.

Then stop trying to make the decision for her.

However, women MUST make responsible choices.

I believe having options is among this category. Not the all-for-one "you're stuck" option.

Sex is a very powerful thing...it is not a toy to be played with.

You're over-hyping it. Casual sex is just another means of entertainment and pleasure.

I agree with you about bombing clinics, or shooting doctors, or any of that nonsense. We are pro LIFE....not pro violence.

Glad we agree.

And the women who picket clinics...well, they do have the right to do that, under the Constitution, and I won't say that they are wrong for what they are doing.

Yea and Westboro also has the right to do what they do. Doesn't make me want to hit them any less.

There is always the hope that someone in anguish might be saved from making a horrible decision that is going to haunt her for the rest of her life.

The picketing is probably what haunts them.

But not everyone is like me, meaning they don't have three detached consciousnesses sewn together and aren't able to entirely divorce personal feeling from ethical and professional feelings.

Wouldn't it be so much better to see her, a happy mother with her adorable baby in her arms than an emotional wreck who keeps having nightmares about her dead baby?

Life ain't all apple pie sweetheart. You and I both know this. If the decision haunts her, it was her decision that she made. Maybe she'll regret it, maybe she won't. It's none of my business unless it happens to be a friend of mind because I'm usually the goto guy for people to drop their dirty secrets... for some reason.

Either way not everyone is fit to be a mother, not everyone wants to be, not everyone can be. It's a hard life decision and not everyone shares the same view as you and I. I care about every child being safe and living happy. But if the mother makes a decision about it, d'oh well, I can't be sad. Even a Grim King is powerless over life

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Why thank you Grim.
I do appreciate you for this.
I...uh...think......

No problem. It was uncalled for.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No problem. It was uncalled for.

Was it?

All I did was expose the stupidity of her position. She said at the point of implant it's a new person. If someone's going to call me a "pro choice nut" I have no problem pointing out how completely asinine her thinking is.

If she disagrees with my assessment of her position she can pick out a new point in fetal development to call it a person.

 

[TheBarrd]

It seems to me that any other point would be arbitrary and based on emotionalism.
When is a person a person? Is it when it is self aware, as someone else suggested? There are studies that say that a human child is not truly self aware till he's something like 18 months old. Is it when his heart begins to beat? How about when there are detectable brain waves? Is it when the placenta detaches, or must he wait till he's completely out of his mother's body altogether? We've heard of "partial birth abortions"...at what point in his journey through his mother's birth canal does he magically become "human" and thus, exempt from being killed? I even recall reading about one case where the fully born infant was left exposed till he died...I guess he wasn't "human" enough yet to be protected under the law.
Just how do you decide when this new life is "human"?
I've been watching those birds outside my window all morning. The parents knew all along...them eggs are our babies! They protected them and kept them safe and warm till they hatched! They still don't look much like adult birds...no feathers, the wings seem stunted, their eyes look weird...and their mouths are huge and stay open all the time...but the parents are convinced all the same. Those chicks are their babies.
Such a darn shame that human beings are not as smart as birds....

 

[seekingsolace]

I've been watching those birds outside my window all morning. The parents knew all along...them eggs are our babies! They protected them and kept them safe and warm till they hatched! They still don't look much like adult birds...no feathers, the wings seem stunted, their eyes look weird...and their mouths are huge and stay open all the time...but the parents are convinced all the same. Those chicks are their babies.
Such a darn shame that human beings are not as smart as birds....

Quietly puts down knife and fork and stops eating omelette...

 

[Ana the Ist]

It seems to me that any other point would be arbitrary and based on emotionalism.
When is a person a person? Is it when it is self aware, as someone else suggested? There are studies that say that a human child is not truly self aware till he's something like 18 months old. Is it when his heart begins to beat? How about when there are detectable brain waves? Is it when the placenta detaches, or must he wait till he's completely out of his mother's body altogether? We've heard of "partial birth abortions"...at what point in his journey through his mother's birth canal does he magically become "human" and thus, exempt from being killed? I even recall reading about one case where the fully born infant was left exposed till he died...I guess he wasn't "human" enough yet to be protected under the law.
Just how do you decide when this new life is "human"?
I've been watching those birds outside my window all morning. The parents knew all along...them eggs are our babies! They protected them and kept them safe and warm till they hatched! They still don't look much like adult birds...no feathers, the wings seem stunted, their eyes look weird...and their mouths are huge and stay open all the time...but the parents are convinced all the same. Those chicks are their babies.
Such a darn shame that human beings are not as smart as birds....

First an appeal to child logic...now an appeal to bird logic...

Everyone here understands these poor analogies...I would assume that all but one of us understands why they are poor. Eventually, we have to legally decide to draw a line between "a human" and "what could have been a human". Since you don't seem to want to do that, I'll go back to my example of the woman who does not know she has a fertilized egg implanted and does some strenuous activity. Murder or not? Why or why not?

Don't a number of bird species have males who destroy eggs? Would you like to continue this discussion of the parenting habits of birds?

 

[TheBarrd]

First an appeal to child logic...now an appeal to bird logic...

Everyone here understands these poor analogies...I would assume that all but one of us understands why they are poor. Eventually, we have to legally decide to draw a line between "a human" and "what could have been a human". Since you don't seem to want to do that, I'll go back to my example of the woman who does not know she has a fertilized egg implanted and does some strenuous activity. Murder or not? Why or why not?

Don't a number of bird species have males who destroy eggs? Would you like to continue this discussion of the parenting habits of birds?

So, how do you decide where to "draw the line", since you seem to feel that a line must be drawn.
When is a human human enough to be a "person"?

 

[TheBarrd]

First an appeal to child logic...now an appeal to bird logic...

Everyone here understands these poor analogies...I would assume that all but one of us understands why they are poor. Eventually, we have to legally decide to draw a line between "a human" and "what could have been a human". Since you don't seem to want to do that, I'll go back to my example of the woman who does not know she has a fertilized egg implanted and does some strenuous activity. Murder or not? Why or why not?

Don't a number of bird species have males who destroy eggs? Would you like to continue this discussion of the parenting habits of birds?

I will ask you again.
When is a person a person? Is it when it is self aware, as someone else suggested? There are studies that say that a human child is not truly self aware till he's something like 18 months old. Is it when his heart begins to beat? How about when there are detectable brain waves? Is it when the placenta detaches, or must he wait till he's completely out of his mother's body altogether? We've heard of "partial birth abortions"...at what point in his journey through his mother's birth canal does he magically become "human" and thus, exempt from being killed? I even recall reading about one case where the fully born infant was left exposed till he died...I guess he wasn't "human" enough yet to be protected under the law.
Just how do you decide when this new life is "human"?

 

[TheBarrd]

Okay...since Ana doesn't seem to have an answer...anyone else?
Exactly when is that "magic moment" when the developing life within the womb may be called "human"?