Why are there religious people?

[Colter]

But that doesn't answer the question. It doesn't even address it. Here is the question, in context of a discussion on limitations: If it's beyond our capacity to understand, then we stand in ignorance. It is a cop-out to say that this or that is beyond our understanding, but you must believe my claims about it nonetheless. Why should I believe your claims about it? It's beyond your understanding.

Fully comprehend, we can experience God personally, but not know God completely. Like any other person that we interact with. You are being a bit legalistic arguing absolute terms and ignoring the spirit of what I am saying.

The "cop out" is saying that because you can't know God or science completely or get every answer to every question that you demand right now, then you just won't try at all.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Fully comprehend, we can experience God personally, but not know God completely. Like any other person that we interact with. You are being a bit legalistic arguing absolute terms and ignoring the spirit of what I am saying.

The "cop out" is saying that because you can't know God or science completely or get every answer to every question that you demand right now, then you just won't try at all.

I never said completely; you are making a strawman out of my question. The larger point was that, when a doctrine is deemed untenable, it seems like a cop-out to say that it is just "mysterious" or "beyond our understanding". I never even alluded to having a complete understanding, which is why your response seems to have little to do with what I'm actually talking about.

 

[KCfromNC]

I don't think I understand your question.

Just probing to see if your lack of belief in Odin is lukewarm or strong, and how that particular religion of disbelief influences your life. It is what you're claiming for atheists, so it is only fair to see how it works in general.

Frankly I find atheist to be people who are no longer doubtful or skeptical or questioning

Really? There seem to be plenty of atheists doubtful of your claims. In this very thread, even.

 

[Colter]

I never said completely; you are making a strawman out of my question. The larger point was that, when a doctrine is deemed untenable, it seems like a cop-out to say that it is just "mysterious" or "beyond our understanding". I never even alluded to having a complete understanding, which is why your response seems to have little to do with what I'm actually talking about.

I agree if a doctrine is deemed untenable then yea, we discard it. I believe doctrine formation to be a negative, an evil frankly because it kills the living Word qualities of God, makes him into a Law.

"When theology masters religion, religion dies; it becomes a doctrine instead of a life. The mission of theology is merely to facilitate the self-consciousness of personal spiritual experience. Theology constitutes the religious effort to define, clarify, expound, and justify the experiential claims of religion, which, in the last analysis, can be validated only by living faith." ​

In trying to answer your question I was pointing out that God is not a complete mystery to man, he has provided and approach for man to know something about him. But faith bridges the gap between what we can experience and what we aren't yet capable of knowing.

 

[Colter]

Just probing to see if your lack of belief in Odin is lukewarm or strong, and how that particular religion of disbelief influences your life. It is what you're claiming for atheists, so it is only fair to see how it works in general.



Really? There seem to be plenty of atheists doubtful of your claims. In this very thread, even.

Doubtful on the question of God, atheist seem to have decided God doesn't exist.

Odin is a false God like the FSM.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Doubtful on the question of God, atheist seem to have decided God doesn't exist.

You have been on this forum since 2004, and presumably active since at least the middle of last year, and you still don't understand what atheists think on the matter?

 

[Cearbhall]

Odin is a false God like the FSM.

And is your disbelief in Odin a part of your life at all?

 

[Colter]

And is your disbelief in Odin a part of your life at all?

Not until KC asked me the question, I had to look up Odin to see what he was talking about. But I won't go to a Odin forum on the net and attempt to mock odinites. I am neutral about Odin as in I don't care.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Not until KC asked me the question, I had to look up Odin to see what he was talking about. But I won't go to a Odin forum on the net and attempt to mock odinites. I am neutral about Odin as in I don't care.

You might find yourself less neutral if Odin believers were more numerous and made the sorts of claims theists often make about nonbelievers.

 

[Colter]

You have been on this forum since 2004, and presumably active since at least the middle of last year, and you still don't understand what atheists think on the matter?

da-know Arch, maybe you think Atheist are more sophisticated on the issue of the existence of God then they really are? If they are here on a Christian forum telling people that faith is myth then they are living a decided life on that particular issue. They may well have other hobbies but concerning the existence of God it's black and white, no shades of grey. Maybe you mean Agnostic?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

da-know Arch, maybe you think Atheist are more sophisticated on the issue of the existence of God then they really are?

It's quite simple: atheists don't believe in gods.

If they are here on a Christian forum telling people that faith is myth then they are living a decided life on that particular issue.

No, they are engaging in discussion, which is what people do.

They may well have other hobbies but concerning the existence of God it's black and white, no shades of grey. Maybe you mean Agnostic?

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive categories.

 

[Cearbhall]

Not until KC asked me the question, I had to look up Odin to see what he was talking about. But I won't go to a Odin forum on the net and attempt to mock odinites. I am neutral about Odin as in I don't care.

Most of us aren't here to mock, though we don't all have endless patience. Christianity is inevitably a part of our lives since we live in Western society, so many of us want to be educated about it and well-versed in relevant debates. It's difficult to be neutral when Christianity is not. If it were as irrelevant as Odin, then it wouldn't be part of our lives. It would be lovely if I didn't have to care.

 

[Colter]

You might find yourself less neutral if Odin believers were more numerous and made the sorts of claims theists often make about nonbelievers.

Fair point. You know, I just got back from being banned from this site for a month because I compared the ISIS God concept with the "lake of fire" God of the book of revelation. I simply pointed out that at least the pilot they burned alive got to die, the lake of fire concept is eternal. Well, someone didn't like that so I was falsely accused of blasphemy.

I have no problem critiquing inadequate ideas in religious doctrine. Tomorrow my ban lifts from TOL where I spend most of my time. They didn't like my explanations of the Pagan influence on Christianity, they said that was blasphemy as well.

I don't just get into it with Atheist, however I'm sympathetic.

 

[Colter]

It's quite simple: atheists don't believe in gods.



No, they are engaging in discussion, which is what people do.

We just disagree

 

[Colter]

Most of us aren't here to mock, though we don't all have endless patience. Christianity is inevitably a part of our lives since we live in Western society, so many of us want to be educated about it and well-versed in relevant debates. It's difficult to be neutral when Christianity is not. If it were as irrelevant as Odin, then it wouldn't be part of our lives. It would be lovely if I didn't have to care.

That's fair, I get that, although the perception that the Christian religion has any monopoly on public policy in the Western world is vastly overstated. It's very difficult to find any traces of Christian morality in American political life. The last vestiges of it are being smothered out now with the destruction of the marriage institution. Basically the secularist have won the battle.

 

[Cearbhall]

That's fair, I get that, although the perception that the Christian religion has any monopoly on public policy in the Western world is vastly overstated. It's very difficult to find any traces of Christian morality in American political life.

I completely disagree, but that's a topic for another thread.

The last vestiges of it are being smothered out now with the destruction of the marriage institution. Basically the secularist have won the battle.

No, it's not the destruction of it. An increase in legal marriages cannot destroy the institution of legal marriage. The religious concept of marriage has nothing to do with this. Though I will agree that the increase in public opinion of same-sex marriage indicates an evolution of Christian morality, since many people equate legal marriage with Christian marriage.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

We just disagree

About what specifically? That atheists are here for discussion? You always seem to ascribe much more complicated motives to us, when it really is very simple. We don't believe in gods, and we are here to talk about various matters, including (but not limited to) theism.

 

[TheBarrd]

I enjoy engaging in discussion with people who don't think the same way I do. You can't learn a thing from people who agree with you, and I have learned a lot from talking with atheists.
For one thing, I have learned a heck of a lot more about my own faith, since atheists I have known have made me examine my beliefs, and dig deeper into them. That, alone, has been a fantastic journey. Atheists have taught me that faith that cannot be tested, cannot be trusted.
For another, the atheists I have dealt with have made me rethink my ideas about science. I have learned that there really is no conflict between God and science. After all, God invented science in the first place. Science can never discover anything that God didn't put there in the first place.
It is also true that science is not set in stone. New discoveries are being made all the time, and what is considered "scientific fact" today, may give way to new scientific facts tomorrow. I learned that science is merely a tool, and that is all that it is. For Christians like me, it is a way to learn more about the amazing works of God.
Far from shaking my faith, my dealings with atheists have, in the long run, helped me to establish it on firmer ground.

 

[Colter]

About what specifically? That atheists are here for discussion? You always seem to ascribe much more complicated motives to us, when it really is very simple. We don't believe in gods, and we are here to talk about various matters, including (but not limited to) theism.

We disagree on the proposition that Atheist join Christian forums as just a place to swap cake recipes or discus model airplane building.

I wouldn't just happen to join an Atheist forum for small talk.

 

[bhsmte]

I enjoy engaging in discussion with people who don't think the same way I do. You can't learn a thing from people who agree with you, and I have learned a lot from talking with atheists.
For one thing, I have learned a heck of a lot more about my own faith, since atheists I have known have made me examine my beliefs, and dig deeper into them. That, alone, has been a fantastic journey. Atheists have taught me that faith that cannot be tested, cannot be trusted.
For another, the atheists I have dealt with have made me rethink my ideas about science. I have learned that there really is no conflict between God and science. After all, God invented science in the first place. Science can never discover anything that God didn't put there in the first place.
It is also true that science is not set in stone. New discoveries are being made all the time, and what is considered "scientific fact" today, may give way to new scientific facts tomorrow. I learned that science is merely a tool, and that is all that it is. For Christians like me, it is a way to learn more about the amazing works of God.
Far from shaking my faith, my dealings with atheists have, in the long run, helped me to establish it on firmer ground.

Sounds healthy to me.