Why are some Christians anti Evolution?

[stevil]

SO, given that many Christians reject Evolution for:

• Bible says god created man in one day
• Bible implies there was no death before the fall of man

So clearly, people that see these as contradictory things need to either choose one over the other (or even go with other beliefs) or say "I don't know". People that are already Christians aren't likely to give up their eternal place in heaven based on "I don't know" and most likely the vast majority of Christians that see a contradiction here won't be keen at giving up eternal heaven with loved ones, so they are likely to reject evidence based science for their biblical beliefs.
That's fine, its up to them. People don't have to accept ToE.

But then what motivates some of these people to go around the internet trying to disprove Evolution?
Are they trying to "save" other people from choosing science over a literal interpretation of Genesis?

Who is it that they are saving? Does it matter if a Christian accepts literal Genesis or not?
Are non Christians likely to give up evidence based science in lieu of a literal translation of a book they don't believe is truth?

In fact it is a bit more complex because the anti-evolutionists aren't going to the internet telling people not to believe in ToE because it contradicts their interpretation of the bible.
Instead they seem to be trying to refute the science behind ToE without actually understanding the science. I don't think it helps their cause, because most people that understand and accept ToE can see that the "debunkers" are fundamentally misunderstanding ToE.

But I still don't understand what drives the anti-evolutionists. They aren't going to convince random people to give up science. Instead of attacking ToE, shouldn't they be instead spreading the word of their god, and acting in a way that presents their faith in a favourable manner? Try to bring people to Christ and then once they are hooked, get them to cast away ToE rather than trying to attack science?

 

[stevil]

No .. its a matter of belief-based faith .. (which clearly isn't random .. its completely the opposite of that, I think?)

Given there is no evidence it is quite random.
Not entirely because if you live in a Muslim country you will lkely be Muslim, if you live in a Christian country you will likely be Christian, if you live in a Hindu country you will likely be Hindu.

But you aren't rewarded for doing due diligence, for spending effort gathering and analysing facts. Instead you are rewarded or punished for believing your parents, or your friends or your government.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

That’s a common misconception about hell amongst nonbelievers, that there will be partying and drinking and drugs and naked girls poolside...

Seriously? Not only is that not what I said, but I don't know any non-believers who think that. AFAIK, the popular understanding is 'eternal hellfire' - although some have picked up on the postmodernist version along the lines of, 'absence of, or being away from, God for eternity', and think it sounds pretty much like everyday life

But I suspect that, like me, most mature non-believers would find an eternity of partying and drinking and drugs and naked girls poolside becoming hellish within a week or two, and I've heard plenty say that existing for eternity under any conditions would be hell - IOW, you haven't experienced boredom & horror until you've done everything you ever wanted to do an infinite number of times...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Is it cultural complexity and sophistication that causes us to turn a blind eye to the environmental dependencies we evolved with, for eg; when we go chasing the belief that earth-life can exist in radically different environments elsewhere in the universe?

Well, I guess it could exist for a while if it takes a bubble of Earth environment with it, but I have to say it's not as attractive an adventure today as I thought it would be when I was 10 years old...

Even Elon Musk knows it's far easier to fix up Earth than to live on or terraform Mars, but I think he wants an off-planet human 'backup', to cover all eventualities. Not sure if that's optimism or pessimism...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

No .. its a matter of belief-based faith .. (which clearly isn't random .. its completely the opposite of that, I think?)

It can't be random - everyone always ends up believing in the One True God™

 

[Gene2memE]

There is evidence that other primates can assess the consequences of their acts, both prospectively and retrospectively. IOW, they know that social transgression will invite retribution or punishment and will prepare for that, and they can learn from the results of social transgression how to better prepare for the consequences next time (form alliances, have more than one escape route, etc). The same applies to risky non-transgressive behaviours, such as challenging the alpha male.

Even non-primate animals can assess the consequences of their action. A number of social mammal species (wolves, elephants, rats, dolphins, domesticated dogs and cats) have been shown to have moral agency - the ability to make moral choices and understand there are consequences to those choices.

 

[Gene2memE]

Even Elon Musk knows it's far easier to fix up Earth than to live on or terraform Mars, but I think he wants an off-planet human 'backup', to cover all eventualities. Not sure if that's optimism or pessimism...

Ego?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Especially on the occasions where we choose to consider ourselves as also being part of 'nature'.

As well we should... but even if we choose not to, the notion that we could somehow "destroy the world" is ludicrous hubris.

We can make the world uninhabitable for most life... including ourselves... but on a long enough timescale, any damage we do will fade, and something would take our place.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Even non-primate animals can assess the consequences of their action. A number of social mammal species (wolves, elephants, rats, dolphins, domesticated dogs and cats) have been shown to have moral agency - the ability to make moral choices and understand there are consequences to those choices.

Probably some birds (corvids, parrots) too - they're certainly intelligent enough.

 

[ottawak]

SO, given that many Christians reject Evolution for:

• Bible says god created man in one day
• Bible implies there was no death before the fall of man

So clearly, people that see these as contradictory things need to either choose one over the other (or even go with other beliefs) or say "I don't know". People that are already Christians aren't likely to give up their eternal place in heaven based on "I don't know" and most likely the vast majority of Christians that see a contradiction here won't be keen at giving up eternal heaven with loved ones, so they are likely to reject evidence based science for their biblical beliefs.
That's fine, its up to them. People don't have to accept ToE.

But then what motivates some of these people to go around the internet trying to disprove Evolution?
Are they trying to "save" other people from choosing science over a literal interpretation of Genesis?

Who is it that they are saving? Does it matter if a Christian accepts literal Genesis or not?
Are non Christians likely to give up evidence based science in lieu of a literal translation of a book they don't believe is truth?

In fact it is a bit more complex because the anti-evolutionists aren't going to the internet telling people not to believe in ToE because it contradicts their interpretation of the bible.
Instead they seem to be trying to refute the science behind ToE without actually understanding the science. I don't think it helps their cause, because most people that understand and accept ToE can see that the "debunkers" are fundamentally misunderstanding ToE.

But I still don't understand what drives the anti-evolutionists. They aren't going to convince random people to give up science. Instead of attacking ToE, shouldn't they be instead spreading the word of their god, and acting in a way that presents their faith in a favourable manner? Try to bring people to Christ and then once they are hooked, get them to cast away ToE rather than trying to attack science?

Don't forget that these creationists are all Sola Scriptura Protestants. All they have is the Bible, and if it is not 100% accurate they have nothing. Nor do they have the theology to discriminate between different literary genres in the text. The theory of evolution has got to be wrong; its very existence is a threat.

 

[AV1611VET]

Don't forget that these creationists are all Sola Scriptura Protestants. All they have is the Bible,

And let me guess:

You have the Bible and Lex Mundi ... right?

 

[Occams Barber]

Probably some birds (corvids, parrots) too - they're certainly intelligent enough.

I just found a book on the subject and bought it (its a slow day ).

Can Animals be Moral by Mark Rowlands.

Can Animals Be Moral? - Oxford Scholarship (universitypressscholarship.com)

OB

 

[ottawak]

And let me guess:

You have the Bible and Lex Mundi ... right?

Wrong. I have the Bible and Sacred Tradition.

 

[stevil]

Don't forget that these creationists are all Sola Scriptura Protestants. All they have is the Bible, and if it is not 100% accurate they have nothing. Nor do they have the theology to discriminate between different literary genres in the text. The theory of evolution has got to be wrong; its very existence is a threat.

OK, we don't need to fight over it or put others down.

As I understand it there are different methods for various flavours of Christians to come to TRUTH.

Some use the bible as written, in literal form which leads to many conflicts with science and logic such as needing a young earth, young universe, no death prior to fall , creatures designed and appearing fully formed as they are seen today etc.

Other Christians may see the bible as a mix of allegory, metaphors, etc and therefore require additional means to make sense of the scriptures such as common sense, science, theology, tradition, or even another "infallible" authority such as the Magisterium for the Catholics.

And these "a priori" then determine a Christian's willingness to accept science or physical evidence. So for many Christians evolution isn't a problem, a 5 billion year old earth with buried dinosaurs aren't a problem and for other Christians evolution is a lie, dinosaur fossils are a lie.

So it seems to me, rather than debating whether Evolution is true or not with a Christian, we really need to understand where this Christian comes from e.g. what are their "a priori".
It seems to me now that it would be pointless trying to convince a Sola Scriptura Christian the veracity of evidence for evolution, it would probably be even pointless trying to explain to them how evolution works or to try to correct any things that they may be misunderstanding about evolution.

 

[coffee4u]

That certainly is one view of it. Does the "tribulation" one hears spoken of fit into your scenario?

End times is not something I have studied deeply as to be sure of the exact order of things such as the tribulation. Although to be honest I think we are in it now.

3While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?” 4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Another verse also mentions pestilences -fatal epidemic diseases. I think Covid was just the first of many.
There is also to be a turning away
Matthew 24:12
Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold

 

[stevil]

End times is not something I have studied deeply as to be sure of the exact order of things such as the tribulation. Although to be honest I think we are in it now.

3While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?” 4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Another verse also mentions pestilences -fatal epidemic diseases. I think Covid was just the first of many.
There is also to be a turning away
Matthew 24:12
Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold

I don't think there has been a year since WWI where we haven't had war somewhere on the planet.
FAQs — A Year Without War.
According to Will and Ariel Durant, in their Lessons of History, there have already been approximately 268 scattered years without war over the past 3,421 years.

Fatal epidemics have been plenty and occur very often. The list is very large
List of epidemics - Wikipedia

Famines are happening every year. List of famines - Wikipedia

Earthquakes are happening multiple times a year, I mean, the tectonic plates are never still. Lists of earthquakes - Wikipedia

 

[coffee4u]

Thanks for taking the time to post that.
Is there evidence in the bible of creatures doing things before the fall that will ordinarily result in physical death however no death happens?
If Adam and Eve were in Eden before the fall, why would Adam and Eve need to eat? Why would they need teeth? Doesn't this seem wasteful if there is no death?

Scripture only ever gives clues.
One is that all animals were herbivores before the fall.
And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.”

Another is that death is linked directly to sin and only people can sin. This sin happened very soon after creation.

Adam's sin also caused many other things outlined in the curse.
The earth was cursed because of what he did. It turned hard and produced thorns and thistles. Life went from ease to hardship.

Also no death before sin is only about creatures whom are alive in the Biblical sense. The ancient Israelite's only viewed life as creatures with life blood. Human beings and animals. This excluded cells, plants and I believe insects also. You will never see death or dying as words connected to plants or insects in scripture. Plants can whither or fade but not die.
Then they had a range of laws to do with cleanliness and death, but insects are never mentioned. If it had included insects I could see swatting a fly on your leg would have fallen under those laws, but they didn't.
So no death before sin is only mankind and animals with blood.
Leviticus 17:14
14 The life of every creature is in its blood.

For the most part God does not outline all the whys of most situations, he tells briefly and expects trust. When he gave the ancient Israelite's hygiene and quarantine laws he simply said this is what you must do he didn't explain germ theory or how under cooked pork could be dangerous. They didn't have to understand only obey. God wants people to follow in trust, not to follow because of strong evidence or reasoning's.

As to teeth, fruit bats have sharp teeth, they eat fruit. Eating is one of the joys of life that God created. Jesus still ate even after he was resurrected into a new immortal body.
Luke 24:37-48
Jesus append to them, since he could just appear, yet he could also be touched and eat.
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

 

[stevil]

Scripture only ever gives clues.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

For the most part God does not outline all the whys of most situations, he tells briefly and expects trust. When he gave the ancient Israelite's hygiene and quarantine laws he simply said this is what you must do he didn't explain germ theory or how under cooked pork could be dangerous. They didn't have to understand only obey. God wants people to follow in trust, not to follow because of strong evidence or reasoning's.

This part is a big point of difference from my own philosophy in life.

With my kids I try to teach them to question answers, to verify stuff.
I try very much not to be an authority to my kids, but instead to teach them how to discover and find answers for themselves.
I very much want my kinds understanding why they do things rather than just doing what they are told.

And in the workplace this is the type of boss I want, is someone who helps me to be autonomous and to work out what needs to be done and to work out how to do that. Someone that is a mentor rather than a boss sending orders down the line.

I'm not trying to put down god or the bible, I'm just pointing out that it isn't for me.
I know you weren't trying to sell it to me, you were just kindly answering my questions. But I found this part interesting and wanted to share my thoughts.

Cheers.

 

[coffee4u]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.


This part is a big point of difference from my own philosophy in life.

With my kids I try to teach them to question answers, to verify stuff.
I try very much not to be an authority to my kids, but instead to teach them how to discover and find answers for themselves.
I very much want my kinds understanding why they do things rather than just doing what they are told.

And in the workplace this is the type of boss I want, is someone who helps me to be autonomous and to work out what needs to be done and to work out how to do that. Someone that is a mentor rather than a boss sending orders down the line.

I'm not trying to put down god or the bible, I'm just pointing out that it isn't for me.
I know you weren't trying to sell it to me, you were just kindly answering my questions. But I found this part interesting and wanted to share my thoughts.

Cheers.

I would agree that children need critical thinking skills. Not that schools provide that much anymore, its all left wing wokeness. Again this to me are all indications of the breakdown in society, of the end times. Covid, the worst fires we have ever seen here, global warming, the war in the Ukraine -which could possibly lead to WW3, the breakdown of the most basic tenants of society such as men and women. Would a man in 1940 ever have swam on the woman's team? Would a person have claimed to be a doll and been believed? No they would have been sent to an asylum (not saying that was good either) Never before has all of this been seen together. When my kids were small they could safely watch preschool programs, now these programs propagate transgenderism and pansexialism to 3 year olds. I don't know your views on this as I have seen atheists go either way, some are with the woke others I have seen are very against it. But the world is not the same as it was during the second world war.

The funny thing is I very much believe in questioning and discovering but that is the mind, the spirit doesn't work like that. Until I found God 30 years ago I didn't get it either. But meeting God is always personal between your spirit and Gods spirit. It can't be shown or proved, it just is. So while I very much question people and their motives and their knowledge of things I don't question God. There is a distinction there.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie

Gods purpose is not that of a boss or that of a man. For the most part a man's desires tend to be about himself, often tied to money or power. Most company owners don't own a company simply to provide people with jobs but to provide wealth and security for themselves/and their family. Even the best company owner is not going to sacrifice himself as Jesus did. God's laws were also not about bolstering himself but to shield us from harm. A boss may make safety laws because he genuinely does want his workers to be safe or they may also be in place to cover himself, so he doesn't get sued or to incur some government fine. A man's motives are often hidden.
This is why I question science and the motives behind some of it. Simply a quest for knowledge and truth to help build society...? I doubt it. People come with bias and selfish reasons to any job path.

I enjoyed answering, thank you for being polite enough to listen. Far too often it's a sparing match on here. I'm a big believer in agreeing to disagree but I would not be doing my duty as a Christian if I didn't answer to the best of my ability for I do believe it.

 

[SelfSim]

I would agree that children need critical thinking skills. Not that schools provide that much anymore, its all left wing wokeness.

I think 'wokeness' is actually a result of some pretty deep critical thinking on social issues like actually dealing with inequality issues, other than by pure aggression and being tempted by getting the buzz that comes from dominating others.
(It may have gone a little overboard in some circles however .. I'm no particular fan of it .. but there again, I'm sure my parents were no fans of some of my behaviours in my youth too).

Even the best company owner is not going to sacrifice himself as Jesus did.

See what I don't get is that there's probably millions of ordinary human beings who have sacrificed themselves for altruistic reasons since he did his thing .. and even before that time. And I'd also bet those people had no thoughts of him and his sacrifices just before they did theirs too.
What about them? Doesn't what they did count?

God's laws were also not about bolstering himself but to shield us from harm.

The presumption there, is that we are unable to shield ourselves from harm. Yet I see exactly that happening every single day. Doesn't that count? None of those acts are necessarily performed because of any Laws, too. Doesn't that also count?