Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

[ColoRaydo]

Why do people worry about the difference of interpretation on this?

After 1600 posts, there are going to be disagreements. After 2,000 years there are still disagreements, none of which affect the core of Christian doctrine.

If you WANT non-believers to be punished eternally what does that say about you? If you want to gamble on a sinful life because you won’t be punished eternally, what does that say about you?

Our goal as Christians is to live eternally with God. Whether the lake of fire is eternal or not, it doesn’t change the fact that I am trusting God for salvation. The same goes for the disagreements over free will and rapture timelines, whatever is the absolute truth, we need to trust God regardless.

 

[FineLinen]

Nonsense. If "eternal life" means life that is everlasting then "everlasting punishment" means exactly that, punishment that endures for ever.

Everlasting life according to the one who leaned on the bosom of the Lord Jesus Christ defines aionios zoe thus>>>>

"This IS everlasting life, that we may know You..."

Please note:

Everlasting life is quality of Life in Him!

 

[FineLinen]

Why do people worry about the difference of interpretation on this?

After 1600 posts, there are going to be disagreements. After 2,000 years there are still disagreements, none of which affect the core of Christian doctrine.

If you WANT non-believers to be punished eternally what does that say about you? If you want to gamble on a sinful life because you won’t be punished eternally, what does that say about you?

Our goal as Christians is to live eternally with God. Whether the lake of fire is eternal or not, it doesn’t change the fact that I am trusting God for salvation. The same goes for the disagreements over free will and rapture timelines, whatever is the absolute truth, we need to trust God regardless.

Dear Ray: The foundation for our life in Him is trust. He does all things well, PERIOD!

“Every tomorrow has two handles. We can take hold of it with the handle of anxiety or the handle of faith.” -Henry Ward Beecher

 

[Hillsage]

Everlasting life according to the one who leaned on the bosom of the Lord Jesus Christ, defines aionios zoe thus>>>>

"This IS everlasting life, that we may know You..."

Please note:

Everlasting life is quality of Life in Him!

Bravo FineLinen, so plain and yet so hidden, is the truth which you see in that verse. While the "wide gate" thinkers see/seek QUANTITY of time in life....after their destruction and death. which is the end of that "wide gate's" path. But there are still those of us who know that scripture speaks to the QUALITY of God's life which is available in Him and for us here and now in this age.

And those thinking their life is a resurrected eternal BODY in the hereafter, most obviously should have never confessed that they were SAVED, if their body died here and now.

You quoted the only NT verse in the bible, spoken by Jesus himself, to DEFINE what the words LIFE/ZOE ETERNAL/AIONIOS really means. And it is a definition which cuts out all the orthodox traditions and commandments of deceiving men from centuries ago, clear up to those who are deceived to this day. Not 'knowingly' maybe, but definitely willingly because they discerned not, the false teachers from long ago.

ECC 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

What a joy it is to have REVELATION knowledge of eternity in our hearts. A knowledge/knowing, of that which "man will not find out" with the carnal minded intellect of religious men. As represented by so many of those coming on the scene after the apostles departed and the "Spirit of truth" was quenched with the spirit of religion.

1TH 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit, 20 do not despise prophesying,
21 but test everything; hold fast what is good, 22 abstain from every form of evil.

While the the quenchers cling to a 'talk' we cling to a walk of "life and life abundant" which Jesus brought for here and now until we receive the fullness thereof in the hereafter.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . If you WANT non-believers to be punished eternally what does that say about you? If you want to gamble on a sinful life because you won’t be punished eternally, what does that say about you? . . .

Why do you find it necessary to insult those who interpret scriptures as supporting eternal punishment in hell only because you interpret other scripture as not supporting hell? I interpret a number of scriptures, OT and NT, as supporting the doctrine of hell NOT because I want anyone to be punished but because I can show grammatically and historically that is what scripture says.

 

[Der Alte]

Whoa! You are speaking of this first life--which is an overburdening vanity. Please read Ecclesiastes 1 & 2. Unless we are the small, peculiar people God calls in this life, it would be better if we weren't even born. The real bad for mankind, is the second death.

I don't know what you are talking about with Eccl 1 and 2. It will take more than a vague scripture reference to refute what I posted.

 

[Deade]

I don't know what you are talking about with Eccl 1 and 2. It will take more than a vague scripture reference to refute what I posted.

I am saying, unless we are the called of God in this life; our whole existence is a vain show better not lived. Here are some examples:

Ecc. 1:2,3 "Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?"

Ecc. 1:8,9 "All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."

Ecc. 1:14,15 "I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered."

Ecc. 2:9-11 "So I was great, and increased more than all that were before me in Jerusalem: also my wisdom remained with me. And whatsoever mine eyes desired I kept not from them, I withheld not my heart from any joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labour: and this was my portion of all my labour. Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun."

Ecc. 2:14-17 "The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all. Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity. For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool. Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit." So goes life, which is nothing more than all of us providing for ourselves. Vain, indeed!

 

[FineLinen]

Bravo FineLinen, so plain and yet so hidden, is the truth which you see in that verse. While the "wide gate" thinkers see/seek QUANTITY of time in life....after their destruction and death. which is the end of that "wide gate's" path. But there are still those of us who know that scripture speaks to the QUALITY of God's life which is available in Him and for us here and now in this age.

And those thinking their life is a resurrected eternal BODY in the hereafter, most obviously should have never confessed that they were SAVED, if their body died here and now.

You quoted the only NT verse in the bible, spoken by Jesus himself, to DEFINE what the words LIFE/ZOE ETERNAL/AIONIOS really means. And it is a definition which cuts out all the orthodox traditions and commandments of deceiving men from centuries ago, clear up to those who are deceived to this day. Not 'knowingly' maybe, but definitely willingly because they discerned not, the false teachers from long ago.

ECC 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

What a joy it is to have REVELATION knowledge of eternity in our hearts. A knowledge/knowing, of that which "man will not find out" with the carnal minded intellect of religious men. As represented by so many of those coming on the scene after the apostles departed and the "Spirit of truth" was quenched with the spirit of religion.

1TH 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit, 20 do not despise prophesying,
21 but test everything; hold fast what is good, 22 abstain from every form of evil.

While the the quenchers cling to a 'talk' we cling to a walk of "life and life abundant" which Jesus brought for here and now until we receive the fullness thereof in the hereafter.

Dear Sage: After walking with Him for these few years, the doctors of dorkiness have nothing to feed what is still a deep hunger and thirst for Him. It is Him who awakens us to see what is clearly before our face and yet hidden for His good time and place. Deep calls unto deep in the Christ as Father awakens more and more territory in us by His mighty unction.

In our fellowship some years ago was an apostle who could minister on one verse of Scripture for a solid 5 nights and at the end simply say "Well, let's just leave it there for now." My God You are the God of more and more! You are the God of children born out of You and sons ascending back to You.

“What were we made for? To know God. What aim should we have in life? To know God. What is the eternal life that Jesus gives? To know God. What is the best thing in life? To know God. What in humans gives God most pleasure? Knowledge of himself.” – J.I. Packer

“Eternal life means more than mere future blessing to be enjoyed by believers; it is equally a kind of spiritual ability.” – Watchman Nee

"Eternal life is not a peculiar feeling inside! It is not your ultimate destination, to which you will go when you are dead. If you are born again, eternal life is that quality of life that you possess right now.” – Major Ian Thomas

 

[Hillsage]

Dear Sage: After walking with Him for these few years, the doctors of dorkiness have nothing to feed what is still a deep hunger and thirst for Him. It is Him who awakens us to see what is clearly before our face and yet hidden for His good time and place. Deep calls unto deep in the Christ as Father awakens more and more territory in us by His mighty unction.

Your heart knowing Father's calling "to be kings and priests" also has a place in what you're seeing/hearing FL.

REV 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

PRO 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.

You too, are a searcher of truth. A spiritual quest which must not let the 'traditions and commandments of men' cloud our eyes from seeing what only the Spirit of truth reveals to those with the 'anointing in you'.

1JO 2:27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.

“What were we made for? To know God. What aim should we have in life? To know God. What is the eternal life that Jesus gives? To know God. What is the best thing in life? To know God. What in humans gives God most pleasure? Knowledge of himself.” – J.I. Packer

With the rebirth of our spirits into the spirit of Christ in us, I believe we were made to manifest the character and authority of the invisible God to His visible creation. Adam was the first manifested "Adam son of God" according to the genealogy of Luke.

LUK 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Business calls, I've said enough on CF today.

 

[Der Alte]

I am saying, unless we are the called of God in this life; our whole existence is a vain show better not lived. Here are some examples:
Ecc. 1:2,3 "Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?"
Ecc. 1:8,9 "All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."
Ecc. 1:14,15 "I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered."
Ecc. 2:9-11 "So I was great, and increased more than all that were before me in Jerusalem: also my wisdom remained with me. And whatsoever mine eyes desired I kept not from them, I withheld not my heart from any joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labour: and this was my portion of all my labour. Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun."
Ecc. 2:14-17 "The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all. Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity. For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool. Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit." So goes life, which is nothing more than all of us providing for ourselves. Vain, indeed!

Where I come from we call that "preaching to the choir." I'm quite sure I am "called of God in this life" and my whole existence is not "a vain show better not lived."
I became a Christian when Johnson was president and I have been in ministry since Ford was president in 2 countries and 5 states. I studied for the ministry at the graduate level including both Biblical languages so it will take more than quoting a few scriptures to show me to be in error in any way. If you want to discuss scripture instead of personal attack, laissez les bon temps rouler.

 

[Deade]

Where I come from we call that "preaching to the choir." I'm quite sure I am "called of God in this life" and my whole existence is not "a vain show better not lived."
I became a Christian when Johnson was president and I have been in ministry since Ford was president in 2 countries and 5 states. I studied for the ministry at the graduate level including both Biblical languages so it will take more than quoting a few scriptures to show me to be in error in any way. If you want to discuss scripture instead of personal attack, laissez les bon temps rouler.

Wait, wait... Let's back up here. There was no personal attack. I never expressed these scriptures applied to you or anyone else. I just said: if not serving our Lord, our lives have little meaning. Life consists of providing one's needs and can go on to maybe leaving an inheritance to his offspring. Which may be well spent or not.

Ecc. 12:13,14 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

 

[Der Alte]

Wait, wait... Let's back up here. There was no personal attack. I never expressed these scriptures applied to you or anyone else. I just said: if not serving our Lord, our lives have little meaning. Life consists of providing one's needs and can go on to maybe leaving an inheritance to his offspring. Which may be well spent or not.
Ecc. 12:13,14 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

Well you quoted my post and your response was posted to me and did not address anything I said. The next time you want to imply all that, just make a general post without quoting anyone then there will be no misunderstanding, not that I think it was.

 

[mmksparbud]

Staff Edit


He isn't, He is love, He is justice, and He is mercy. That is what the 1000 years is for---everyone will have a chance to see why the wicked must be destroyed. Everyone---even the wicked themselves will see the justice of it. But there is no justice in eternal torture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Before I begin I want to say that I am in no way one of those people who believe in annihilation to please my flesh or rely on my own understanding to make myself feel better. Sure you can use God's character as an argument, but I am here to show you pure biblical evidence where God clearly states the punishment for sin is death. If I saw in scripture God clearly say the wicked will have eternal conscious torment and hell is an eternal torture chamber, I would still trust him and accept that. But I just don't see the biblical evidence for this popular belief and ironically enough, so many Christians who are deep in the bible and far in their walk believe this view and think the truth (death of the wicked) is unbiblcal. I think scripture was twisted and the church popularized this false belief, and they obviously did a good job in it. As a side note, I truly think ceasing to exist is actually the worst punishment of all because you will never get a chance for life and you can never feel anything, so God is still just in that case and the wicked will pay for rejecting God. Some people believe in universal salvation which I do think is unbiblical.

I believe the lake of fire is a very real place. It clearly says the lake of fire is real in scripture, and there will be torment and punishment in there before the souls of the wicked perish and God restores his creation. When God makes the new heaven and new earth as stated in revelation, there will be no more room for suffering and evil. All evil will die and there will be no more need for existence of it. A lot of people make the argument that all souls are eternal, but that doesn't make any sense because before we were born, we did not exist. So we are not eternal in the way God is. Not to mention God has the power to destroy souls because he is the almighty creator. The bible says the righteous will have everlasting LIFE and the wicked will PERISH. It says the wages of sin is DEATH. The bible talks about everlasting "destruction". It says evil and hell will be thrown into the lake and fire for the second DEATH. I know a lot of people will make the argument death only refers to spiritual death, but it does not specifically say this in the bible, death means death, not only spiritual death but the death of your soul, and it seems pretty clear in the bible so there is no need to add to it. Most of all it talks about how the gift Jesus gives to the righteous is life, and if you don't believe in him you will receive the opposite which is death. The eternal punishment the bible talks about is the destruction of the soul for eternity.

Here is the biblical evidence:

Psalm 1:6 "For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 69:28 "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous" Psalm 34:16 "The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth."

Psalm 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out"

Isaiah 1:28, 30-31 "And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;"

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death"

I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. This is the view that hell is a very real and literal place, but the wicked will be erased from existence in the Lake of Fire after the Judgment.

As for which view on the Lake of Fire is worse morally and or physically:
Well, I believe that Eternal Torment is far worse than Conditional Immortality because one will be suffering in extreme pain for all eternity that goes way beyond the crimes that they committed. Their sins were finite, and yet they are punished infinitely. Doesn't sound fair and just and it would be horrible to live in being tortured with no time ending in sight. At least with perishing in Conditional Immortality, one will not even know anymore about how they wronged God and their fellow neighbor. I would rather not exist than be tortured alive for all eternity. That is a no brainer - IMO. I wouldn't want to be tortured for 3 seconds let alone for eternity.

Side Note:

Oh, and I believe hell is not a torture chamber of extreme pain. The richman (in the story of Lazarus and Richman) was not screaming uncontrollably. While I could be wrong, I also believe it is highly probable that the wicked go through long periods of sleep within hell, as well. So wicked men who died thousands of years ago in hell, are most likely not experiencing a punishment beyond the crimes that they committed. They are only awakened at certain key period points within history (Note: One such possible example is when Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, i.e. Jesus announced a message to those wicked men who perished in the global flood).

 

[Der Alte]

He isn't, He is love, He is justice, and He is mercy. That is what the 1000 years is for---everyone will have a chance to see why the wicked must be destroyed. Everyone---even the wicked themselves will see the justice of it. But there is no justice in eternal torture.

Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said,Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word "death" 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say "eternal death" in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?
I would like to see scripture where Jesus, Himself, unequivocally states that the unrighteous will either be destroyed or will be saved although they never repented in this life.

 

[Butch5]

I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. This is the view that hell is a very real and literal place, but the wicked will be erased from existence in the Lake of Fire after the Judgment.

As for which view on the Lake of Fire is worse morally and or physically:
Well, I believe that Eternal Torment is far worse than Conditional Immortality because one will be suffering in extreme pain for all eternity that goes way beyond the crimes that they committed. Their sins were finite, and yet they are punished infinitely. Doesn't sound fair and just and it would be horrible to live in being tortured with no time ending in sight. At least with perishing in Conditional Immortality, one will not even know anymore about how they wronged God and their fellow neighbor. I would rather not exist than be tortured alive for all eternity. That is a no brainer - IMO. I wouldn't want to be tortured for 3 seconds let alone for eternity.

Side Note:

Oh, and I believe hell is not a torture chamber of extreme pain. The richman (in the story of Lazarus and Richman) was not screaming uncontrollably. While I could be wrong, I also believe it is highly probable that the wicked go through long periods of sleep within hell, as well. So wicked men who died thousands of years ago in hell, are most likely not experiencing a punishment beyond the crimes that they committed. They are only awakened at certain key period points within history (Note: One such possible example is when Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, i.e. Jesus announced a message to those wicked men who perished in the global flood).

You are correct about Conditional Immortality. The wicked are simply dead. They will be resurrected to face the judgment and then cast into the lake of fire where they burn up. There is no eternal torment.

Also, the passage about Lazarus and the Rich Man is not about an afterlife so don't let people try to use that one. The parable is a judgment against the leadership of Israel. Jesus speaks the parable to the Pharisees.

Also, when Jesus made the proclamation to the spirits in prison He did it after the Resurrection and it was to angels and demons.

Hope this helps.

 

[Der Alte]

You are correct about Conditional Immortality. The wicked are simply dead. They will be resurrected to face the judgment and then cast into the lake of fire where they burn up. There is no eternal torment.
Also, the passage about Lazarus and the Rich Man is not about an afterlife so don't let people try to use that one. The parable is a judgment against the leadership of Israel. Jesus speaks the parable to the Pharisees.
Also, when Jesus made the proclamation to the spirits in prison He did it after the Resurrection and it was to angels and demons.
Hope this helps.

If there is no eternal torment why did Jesus say "these shall go away into 'aionios kolasis'/eternal punishment?" Jesus is quoted 17 times as using the word "death," when Jesus meant death that is what He said.
All of the ECF who quote or refer to the story of Lazarus and the rich man to be factual.
The word parable is from the Greek word parabolos which means to place or throw beside, to clarify/explain something unknown by comparing it to something known.
The Lazarus/rich man account does not have the format of a parable there is no worldly situation which is or can be likened to heaven.
It is not introduced as a parable and was not explained later to Jesus’ disciples.
All of the unquestioned parables refer to events which had happened at some time in history; a widow found some coins she had lost, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance.
All of the unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, “a certain man,”” a certain widow,”” a certain land owner,” etc. The Lazarus account names two specific people “Lazarus” and Abraham, an actual historical person, whom the rich man refers to as “father Abraham.” If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus lied.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence. ​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

He isn't, He is love, He is justice, and He is mercy. That is what the 1000 years is for---everyone will have a chance to see why the wicked must be destroyed. Everyone---even the wicked themselves will see the justice of it. But there is no justice in eternal torture.

I think (positively) you believe Yahuweh (Sovereign Creator of All)
is perfectly righteous and just and wise in all things, right?
This is as His Word always shows and states.

Likewise , man's ideas of what happens MUST line up with His Word, or be discarded, like the Bereans are famous for, also, right ?

So, the other things that do not line up with His Word, that are common in mankind but not in harmony with all of His Word, His PLan, and His Purpose, are not accepted.

This is PEACE, then, resulting, by dropping anything HE does not approve of.

And in the meantime, all the time, KNOWING YES, HE IS PERFECT IN JUDGMENT, Perfectly Just and Righteous.

Any thoughts or beliefs or ideas of mankind contrary to this are not acceptable. (so anything opposed to Him is dropped.)

 

[Butch5]

If there is no eternal torment why did Jesus say "these shall go away into 'aionios kolasis'/eternal punishment?" Jesus is quoted 17 times as using the word "death," when Jesus meant death that is what He said.
All of the ECF who quote or refer to the story of Lazarus and the rich man to be factual.
The word parable is from the Greek word parabolos which means to place or throw beside, to clarify/explain something unknown by comparing it to something known.
The Lazarus/rich man account does not have the format of a parable there is no worldly situation which is or can be likened to heaven.
It is not introduced as a parable and was not explained later to Jesus’ disciples.
All of the unquestioned parables refer to events which had happened at some time in history; a widow found some coins she had lost, a shepherd found a lost sheep, a wayward son squandered all of his inheritance.
All of the unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, “a certain man,”” a certain widow,”” a certain land owner,” etc. The Lazarus account names two specific people “Lazarus” and Abraham, an actual historical person, whom the rich man refers to as “father Abraham.” If Abraham was not in the place Jesus said and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus lied.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence. ​

We've been over this.

 

[Der Alte]

We've been over this.

Yes we have. As long as people keep posting that Lazarus and the rich man is a parable I will keep refuting it, I think people need to needs all sides.
Now if I were to see some credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence, for example the ECF, to the contrary I might be persuaded.