Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

[Albion]

If King James himself is preaching there, I want to hear him!

 

[mmksparbud]

So you are determining what God has to do to be just in your eyes. Who is in charge?

He is---and He does not override His character. He is just, merciful and He love. Remove those from Hos character, and you worship a different God.

Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

And if a lowly female can tell when something is not just---how much more can God sense it?!

 

[mmksparbud]

I assume you also agree eternal life is unjust and therefore untrue?

Why?? God says it, He promises it and it is within His character to give it. He has not, however, promised it to the lost so they can burn forever. Nowhere in the bible does it say He grants eternal life to the lost.

 

[mmksparbud]

Will it please me that some will burn in hell forever?

Nope they just get what they deserve.
M-Bob

We do not determine what they deserve God does. And He does not grant eternal life to the lost, only to the saved.
God never told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would burn in hell forever, He said they would die.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

God never told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would burn in hell forever, He said they would die.

Maybe because the dirty sinners Repented?
M

 

[Albion]

We do not determine what they deserve God does.

and he has told us, in his word, what it is that will get anyone sent to hell.

He does not grant eternal life to the lost, only to the saved.

"Eternal life" is an expression that means life with God, the fullest experience of life, not just existing forever and ever.

God never told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would burn in hell forever, He said they would die.

...which they did. So they lost that benefit that had been theirs at creation. He did not reveal to us in Scripture what their future was to be after physical death, however..

 

[mmksparbud]

Maybe because the dirty sinners Repented?
M

He told them they would die before they ate of it. They weren't dirty sinners yet. God doesn't tell lies, He doesn't tell 1/2 truths. If the penalty for eating of the tree was to be burning in hell forever, He would have said it. He said they would die--period.

 

[mmksparbud]

and he has told us, in his word, what it is that will get anyone sent to hell.


"Eternal life" is an expression that means life with God, the fullest experience of life, not just existing forever and ever.


...which they did. So they lost that benefit that had been theirs at creation. He did not reveal to us in Scripture what their future was to be after physical death, however..

Eternal life means just that -- existing forever and forever. Being with Him is an added bonus, nothing can live apart from God. Eternal life---living forever, eternal death---dead forever.
God did not say a thing about spiritual anything. Death is ceasing to exist, not living forever.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Those who do not have eternal life---will perish.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Adam and Eve were not created immortal, they were created to be able to live eternally.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

They were exiled from the garden to keep them from eating of the tree of life and living forever---they were not immortal in and of themselves. We get the tree of life back after the resurrection.

 

[Albion]

See the post following.

 

[Albion]

What was lost was not their having been created in the image and likeness of God (which means, among other things, eternal existence), but by sinning Adam and Eve did lose many of the benefits of physical existence they had also been created with--not having to experience a physical death, not having to bear children in pain, not having to labor to eke out an existence from the soil. All of these losses dealt with life on this Earth only.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Amen!
Most threads and posts in most forums would not exist if Scripture was the Standard, which Yahuweh (God the Creator) Says it is.


QUOTE=... but I am here to show you pure biblical evidence where God clearly states the punishment for sin is death. If I saw in scripture God clearly say the wicked will have eternal conscious torment and hell is an eternal torture chamber, I would still trust him and accept that. But I just don't see the biblical evidence for this popular belief and ironically enough, so many Christians who are deep in the bible and far in their walk believe this view and think the truth (death of the wicked) is unbiblcal. I think scripture was twisted and the church popularized this false belief, and they obviously did a good job in it. As a side note, I truly think ceasing to exist is actually the worst punishment of all because you will never get a chance for life and you can never feel anything, so God is still just in that case and the wicked will pay for rejecting God. Some people believe in universal salvation which I do think is unbiblical.

I believe the lake of fire is a very real place. It clearly says the lake of fire is real in scripture, and there will be torment and punishment in there before the souls of the wicked perish and God restores his creation. When God makes the new heaven and new earth as stated in revelation, there will be no more room for suffering and evil. All evil will die and there will be no more need for existence of it. A lot of people make the argument that all souls are eternal, but that doesn't make any sense because before we were born, we did not exist. So we are not eternal in the way God is. Not to mention God has the power to destroy souls because he is the almighty creator. The bible says the righteous will have everlasting LIFE and the wicked will PERISH. It says the wages of sin is DEATH. The bible talks about everlasting "destruction". It says evil and hell will be thrown into the lake and fire for the second DEATH. I know a lot of people will make the argument death only refers to spiritual death, but it does not specifically say this in the bible, death means death, not only spiritual death but the death of your soul, and it seems pretty clear in the bible so there is no need to add to it. Most of all it talks about how the gift Jesus gives to the righteous is life, and if you don't believe in him you will receive the opposite which is death. The eternal punishment the bible talks about is the destruction of the soul for eternity.

Here is the biblical evidence:

Psalm 1:6 "For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 69:28 "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous" Psalm 34:16 "The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth."

Psalm 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out"

Isaiah 1:28, 30-31 "And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;"

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death"[/QUOTE

 

[SarahsKnight]

Actually we do. Those who deny there is justice with God don’t.

Except we conditionalists aren't denying any justice with or from God. He never says anywhere in Scripture that burning alive forever is His brand of justice.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Adam and Eve were not created immortal, they were created to be able to live eternally.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

That's what baffles me about traditionalists who handwave this away when you bring up Genesis 3:22. The text here in the very beginning of the Bible almost could not be more clear in that Adam and Eve were actively prevented from being able to live forever once they had become sinful. So how, how on Earth could it possibly be that all humans thereafter are born with eternal souls that must live forever in heaven or hell and can never truly die, as most traditionalists believe? Where did we get this theology? .... Besides Plato 3000 years ago, I mean?

 

[Hillsage]

If King James himself is preaching there, I want to hear him!

I had a discussion with a 'KJV only' Holdeman Mennonite patient just a few weeks ago. They feel like it wasn't influenced by modern 'world'. I said "Jolene it wasn't named GOD'S VERSION, it was named the KING JAMES VERSION. It was called that because of his influence. Have you never heard of his influences upon the translators?" Her blank look 'told' the answer.

 

[Der Alte]

...
Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." ....

This is a favorite out-of-context proof text for the "Hell no!" crowd.
Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context.
Psalm 37 is not talking about man's eternal fate but what happens to Israel's enemies in this life.

Psa 37:1 A Psalm of David. Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
Psa 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb. ​

The evildoers are cut down like grass and wither like flowers, that is not annihilationism!

Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.​

Evildoers will be cut off, i.e. cut down like grass vs. 2

Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.​

The Israelites will not be looking for the place of the evildoers in paradise. The evildoers place in this world will be empty, not annihilationism.

Psa 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
Psa 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken. ​

Evildoers have drawn their words and bent their bows, to attack Israel, but their bows will be broken, in this world, their own swords will enter their own hearts, in this world, not annihilationism!

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.​

The wicked perish and their smoke consumes away, in this world. See previous verses

Psa 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.​

Those that curse God shall be cut off, i.e. cut down like grass and wither like flowers, see vs. 2, above.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

mmksparbud said: ↑
Adam and Eve were not created immortal, they were created to be able to live eternally.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

That's what baffles me about traditionalists who handwave this away when you bring up Genesis 3:22. The text here in the very beginning of the Bible almost could not be more clear in that Adam and Eve were actively prevented from being able to live forever once they had become sinful. So how, how on Earth could it possibly be that all humans thereafter are born with eternal souls that must live forever in heaven or hell and can never truly die, as most traditionalists believe? Where did we get this theology? .... Besides Plato 3000 years ago, I mean?

A member had mentioned this verse earlier in Genesis

The Ancient Hebrew Research Center
Plowing through History from the Aleph to the Tav

Dying You Shall Die: The meaning of Genesis 2:17 - Ministry Magazine

The Hebrew text uses an idiomatic construction literally translated “dying you shall die.” Members and students figure out such literal translations, and come running to the pastor with questions
Variants of the phrase “dying you shall die” occur 49 times in the Old Testament.3 Of these, two are involved in the story of the fall of man—one in Genesis 2:17 and the other in Genesis 3:4.4

Young's Literal Translation
Genesis 2:17
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying<4191> thou dost die<4191>.'

With this fairly good Greek/Hebrew reader, you can mouse over each Hebrew[also koine Greek] word and it will give the strongs' definition and grammatical usage:

Greek and Hebrew Reader Online
17 וְּמֵעֵץ הַדַּעַת טֹוב וָרָע לֹא תֹאכַל מִמֶּנּוְּ כִּי בְּיֹום אֲכָלְךָ מִמֶּנּוְּמֹות תָּמוְּת

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software
ISA Hebrew interlinear renders it "to die you shall die"

Gen 5:5
And all the days of Adam which he lived are nine hundred and thirty years, and he is dying.
----------------------------------------------------------
It is similar to what Paul wrote here:

Greek and Hebrew Reader Online
22 ὥσπερ γὰρ ἐν τῷ Ἀδὰμ1 πάντες ἀποθνῄσκουσιν, οὕτως καὶ ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ πάντες ζῳοποιηθήσονται2.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as in the Adam all are dying/apoqnhskousin <599> (5719), so also in the Christ all shall be being made alive. [Genesis 5:5]
45 And so it is written, 'The first man Adam became a living being. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit'.

Revelation also has a form of the construct concerning Jezebel's children in the 4th Assembly of Thyatira.

Rev 2:23
and her children I will kill in death, and know shall all the assemblies that I am he who is searching reins and hearts; and I will give to you -- to each -- according to your works.

ISA and her children I shall be killing in death

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Biased? Perspective?

 

[Der Alte]

That's what baffles me about traditionalists who handwave this away when you bring up Genesis 3:22. The text here in the very beginning of the Bible almost could not be more clear in that Adam and Eve were actively prevented from being able to live forever once they had become sinful. So how, how on Earth could it possibly be that all humans thereafter are born with eternal souls that must live forever in heaven or hell and can never truly die, as most traditionalists believe? Where did we get this theology? .... Besides Plato 3000 years ago, I mean?

Plato lived about 2400 years ago but there was already in Israel a doctrine of a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both Ge hinnom and sheol, Translated Gehenna and hades in the 225 LXX.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom_5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

The wages of sin is death, all mankind, 100%, have sinned, all mankind, 100%, will die. That takes care of death being the penalty for sin.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times. If Jesus meant death, He said death not punishment. If eternal punishment is only an indefinite age long so is eternal life.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.”
Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Plato lived about 2400 years ago but there was already in Israel a doctrine of a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both Ge hinnom and sheol, Translated Gehenna and hades in the 225 LXX.

Paul warned his Jewish and non-Jewish followers about:

Titus 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commands of men, turning themselves away from the truth;

1 Timothy 1:4-7
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do…

 

[Hillsage]

and he has told us, in his word, what it is that will get anyone sent to hell.

And just what is it that the bible tells us Albion?

If you say it's sin that sends to hell? I agree. But Jesus died on the cross for the eternal forgiveness of ALL sins before any of 'us' here was even born. So was the price 'paid for' and your sins forgiven then, or not? Does me accepting or denying Christ deny the 'paid price' for His forgiveness? I'm voting; No! Need biblical support for my POV?

LUK 23:34 And Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." And they cast lots to divide his garments.

Did the sinful guards who crucified Him on the cross receive Jesus' forgiveness for their sins based upon their confessed acceptance? Again, I'm voting; No!

So, if sin sends to hell, what about every Christian HERE that still sins? Well, actually you're still right Albion and I agree...all Christians are going to end up in HELL. But you'll never realize that 'truth' unless you believe Paul, instead of the lying pen of the modern scribes who are writing nominal bibles today. For 'their translations' have many deceptive an "DEATHly and GRAVE" errors in them.

RSV 1CO 15:55 "O death/thanatos, where is thy victory? O death/hades, where is thy sting?"

NAS 1CO 15:55 "O DEATH/THANATOS, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH/HADES, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

NIV 1CO 15:55 "Where, O death/thanatos, is your victory? Where, O death/hades, is your sting?"

Although, in this verse where Paul speaks of Christians, KJV actually does comes closer to the truth than the favorite....nominal translations...of the church today.

KJV 1CO 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave /HADES, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Oddly though, even KJV translated this word HADES as HELL in every other NT verse with the word HADES in it. Oh my....how sweet their lie....consistency is truly a jewel to be sought for when seeking the truth of God to dispel the lies of religious men.

So, at least you're still right....sin STILL sends all humanity to the GRAVE/HADES/HELL. And if HELL is eternal and no one gets out as YOU ALL BELIEVE, then that would sure explain why translators had to cover up that truth in this verse to protect ORTHODOX's lie. Translators sure don't want the dumb sheep to arrive at a theology 'indoctrinated' translators themselves aren't privy to understanding.