Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

[ClementofA]

JESUS CHRIST speaks plainly and openly in Matthew 7:14 when He tells everyone "small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it (Mt.7:13-14)
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Note the word "many", not "few":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All. Those will He "justify" (Isa.53:11).

 

[ClementofA]

SIN is in the world. All are guilty (Romans 3:23) and are condemned to death - spiritual death as well as physical death. It is the nature of man to die (Genesis 6:3a) because the wages of SIN is death (Romans 6:23). Those that refuse to repent of their SIN are judged and sentenced to spiritual and physical destruction.

Everyone has sinned, so every fallen human being receives the wages of sin, which is death. Does that, then, mean by "death" that everyone is annihilated forever? Obviously not.

Scripture knows nothing of any endless death, but says that death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15: 28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Beyond all that, your translation is misleading, as the OP of this thread implies. A more literal honest version is:

Rom_6:23 “For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.” (CLV)

Furthermore Rom 6 23 doesn't deny that everyone will eventually receive the gift of eonian life. It doesn't address the question of how many human beings will get this gift.
OTOH Scripture reveals that everyone will obtain "life" & be "constituted just":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

There are no second chances after death (Hebrews 9:27), no programs of repentance are possible and no life at all.

Hebrews 9:27 does not say there are "no second chances after death". If there's no postmortem salvation, what happens to those who die as infants? Does God's love have an expiry date like a carton of milk? If Love Omnipotent doesn't save all, is it because He is unable or because He doesn't want to?

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[ClementofA]

MAN IS MORTAL

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;
- Genesis 6:3a

Only a person who wishes to promote doctrines of demons would blatantly argue against physical evidence that fills cemeteries.

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."
- Genesis 6:3

The same Hebrew word (OLAM, 5769) used for "forever" appears in Lam.3:31:

For the Lord will not cast off forever, (Lam.3:31)

32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

NIV Genesis 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."

Many ancient translations do not say "contend with", but "abide in" or "dwell in":

"R.V. marg. rule in. Better, according to many ancient versions, abide in..."

"...Shall not dwell (LXX., οὐ μὴ καταμείνη; Vulgate, non permanebit; Syriac, Onkelos)."

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

"Genesis 6:3 compare perhaps continue, do something continually, in modern Egyptian Arabic (SoSK lxvii {1894}, 211 f.). (1) ᵐ5 ᵑ9 ᵑ6 Onk read ידיר or (Kue) ילון abide in, dwell, — My spirit will not abide in man for ever; this best suits the context, but ידור, as Aramaism, is dubious (2) Kn De Schr RVm render rule in, supported by Zechariah 3:7 only. (3) Thes Ew Di render be humbled in, sustained by Arabic usage, but not by Hebrew (4) strive with of AV RV (compare 6 above) is hardly justified."

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged, Electronic Database.

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

JPS Tanakh 1917
And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'

Douay-Rheims Bible
And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah saith, 'My Spirit doth not strive in man -- to the age; in their erring they are flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.

Concordant Literal Version
And saying is Yahweh Elohim, "Not abide shall My spirit in the human for the eon, in that moreover, he is flesh. And come shall his days to be a hundred and twenty years.

Rotherham Emphasized Bible
And Yahweh said—My spirit shall not rule in man to times age—abiding, for that, he also, is flesh,—Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

NET Bible
So the LORD said, "My spirit will not remain in humankind indefinitely, since they are mortal. They will remain for 120 more years."

ISV
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not remain with human beings forever, because they are truly mortal, and their lifespan will be 120 years.

English Standard Version
Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”

John Wycliffe's Translation
And God seide, My spirit schal not dwelle in man with outen ende, for he is fleisch; and the daies of hym schulen be an hundrid and twenti yeer.

Brenton English Septuagint Translation
And the Lord God said, My Spirit shall certainly not remain among these men for ever, because they are flesh, but their days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Charles Thompson Translation (of the LXX)
then the Lord God said, "My breath must not continue in these men to this age, because they are flesh; their days however, shall be an hundred and twenty years

Complete Apostle's Bible (of the LXX)
And the Lord God said, My Spirit shall certainly not remain among these men forever, because they are flesh, but their days shall be one hundred and twenty years.

"R.V. marg. rule in. Better, according to many ancient versions, abide in..."

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Gen.12:3)

 

[ClementofA]

...

How about quoting the Bible?

For Moses himself said, “Adonai will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You are to listen to everything he tells you. Everyone who fails to listen to that prophet will be removed from the people and destroyed.”
- Acts 3:22

Again, only about one quarter of the earth's population claim to be Christian. Assuming that membership alone guarantees salvation, that still leaves out three quarters of the people of earth. Are you blind to the numbers or simply so persuaded of your Greek philosophy that you can't endure reality?

Notice the last word of Acts 3:22. The word is destroyed. According to Merriam-Webster dictionary 'destroyed' means to be put out of existence.

You left out some of the other meanings of "destroy" in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, including "ruin" & "kill": Definition of DESTROY

"Peter repeats this soon after, announcing the eventual restoration, in Acts 3:24: “all the prophets […] foretold these days,” that is, those of the universal apokatastasis. In the immediate continuation of Peter’s speech, the fulfilment of this prophecy is linked to the accomplishment of the promise made to Abraham, the benediction of all families of the earth in his progeny. Now, this will be accomplished in the eschatological times as well, and will be an action of God." (Ramelli, p.14, in the following).

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Acts 3:21 whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all, of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age.

Psa.22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember, and shall be converted to the Lord: And all the families of the nations shall adore in his sight.

 

[Choir Loft]

1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it (Mt.7:13-14)
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Both are right.

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Note the word "many", not "few":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All. Those will He "justify" (Isa.53:11).

FEW will be saved. Jesus said so. The ideology of universal salvation is neither Biblical nor observable.

The population of this planet is approximately eight billion people of which slightly less than two billion are professed Christians. That means that the observable FACT is MOST people are not and will not be saved. That is a numeric FACT.

One can twist scripture to mean almost anything. Hitler justified the holocaust with it. Stalin justified pograms, purges and mass murder with it (at least initially). Americans justified black slavery with it and continue to justify international aggression and war crimes with it. There is nothing a demonically inspired person or society will not do to twist scripture to their own ends. The gospels demonstrated this by chronicling the episodes of satanic temptation of Christ. Liars tend to twist everything they touch so as to justify their opinions.

The Bible nowhere says all will be saved - exclusively. All will be saved conditionally. There's a world of difference between the two.

THERE IS NO SALVATION AFTER DEATH.

It is appointed unto man to die once and after that comes the judgment. - Hebrews 9:27

The Bible nowhere mentions remedial programs, courts of appeal or reversal of judgment. God's judgment is final forever - meaning no change.

Those that claim some sort of alteration is possible after death are mouthing the words of the devil who has always sought to confuse and misdirect mankind from the truth - calling God a liar.

Lies of satan have always been more popular in Xianity than the truth of the Bible. Sin today and be saved tomorrow are lies of the devil. Today is the day of salvation. Tomorrow may never come.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

 

[Der Alte]

Here is a little study I did on the word αἰώνιος/aionios in the NT. In twenty two [22] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.

1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26.​

…..In the NT “aion/aionios” refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]​

In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house only ages long which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”

[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[ εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

In this verse “aionion” and “aiona” are paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand” If “aionion” and “aiona” are only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” and “aiona” by definition here mean eternal.

[18]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.​

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[19]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.

[20]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."​

According to noted Greek scholar MarvinVincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.

 

[Pneuma3]

FEW will be saved.

So Gods promise to abe was just a lie.

The ideology of universal salvation is neither Biblical nor observable.

Yet it is the only doctrine that is spelled out exactly in scriptures and the one we are commanded to teach.

You can hold to your unbiblical doctrine of annihilation if you like, but just be aware it is another doctrine and not the one we are commanded to teach as per 1tim 4

 

[ClementofA]

THERE IS NO SALVATION AFTER DEATH.

It is appointed unto man to die once and after that comes the judgment. - Hebrews 9:27

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

There is no change of a man's state after death.

Hebrews 9:27 says no such thing.

Rom.3:4a God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;


Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Rom.8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but (because of Him who subjected it, in expectation that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery
to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom.11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Rom.11:36 because out of Him, and through Him, and into Him are all; to Him is the glory -- into the eons. Amen.


Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.
1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)
2 Cor.5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, having concluded this, that One has died for all, therefore all have died.
2 Cor.5:18,19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.
Rev. 15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous deeds have been revealed."
Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Rev. 21:5 And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!" And then he said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

FEW will be saved. Jesus said so.

As i've shown, He didn't.

The Bible nowhere says all will be saved - exclusively. All will be saved conditionally.

Not all will be saved from being hurt by the second death, which is the lake of fire. But death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & all will have life, righteousness & God in them (1 Cor.15:28; Rom.5:18-19, etc).

 

[ClementofA]

Here is a little study I did on the word αἰώνιος/aionios in the NT.

Der Alter 19/22 verse list answered:

What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)
how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire
Question about eternal damnation


Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[Choir Loft]

Hebrews 9:27 says no such thing.

Rom.3:4a God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;


Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Rom.8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but (because of Him who subjected it, in expectation that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery
to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom.11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Rom.11:36 because out of Him, and through Him, and into Him are all; to Him is the glory -- into the eons. Amen.


Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.
1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)
2 Cor.5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, having concluded this, that One has died for all, therefore all have died.
2 Cor.5:18,19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.
Rev. 15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous deeds have been revealed."
Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Rev. 21:5 And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!" And then he said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Nearly all references above consider the quality of the spiritually regenerate human - one that has been granted the Second Birth. Volumes have been written about that condition. But your post does not address the two key propositions made by the Bible; one of God and the other of spiritually Unregenerate man.

#1 Only God is immortal.
“who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light” - 1 Timothy 6:16

#2 Man is mortal - the natural destiny of which is death of mind body and spirit.
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a

All of the quotations and defensive maneuvers posted previously cannot subvert the truth of God's eternal Word. Only God is eternal and man is not. No part of man is eternal. The Bible nowhere says otherwise despite numerous efforts to twist its words to a different meaning. When man dies his spirit is destroyed completely and for all time (That's what forever means. Forever doesn't mean over and over in endless repetition and torment. It implies a certain and irreversible <sudden> final condition.)

EXCEPT

when man is blessed by the Second Birth, and that ONLY if its asked for according to the Law, according to the words of Jesus and chronicled by the testimony of millions.

I find few nits to pick with you regarding most of what you assert with regard to spiritually regenerate (saved) persons. That's because you are focusing upon them only - to the utter and complete failure to recognize the condition of the unsaved. Their destiny is total and complete destruction without hope of appeal, reconsideration, or reversal of judgment. Nowhere does the Bible say that God changes His mind in this regard.

"It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment." - Hebrews 9:27

Paul wrote those words to believing Jews - those who today are called Messianics. (That's why the book is called Hebrews.) Jews understand that death means death and that there is no second life and no review of the process once they've breathed their last breath. Jews are quite familiar with death, having been persecuted by the church more than by any other group or religion. Jews don't have to be convinced that death is the end of things.

But Xians do ... because being unfamiliar with the Law they're pretty much willing to swallow any bovine excrement that smells good to them.

What Jews didn't know about was atonement in Christ. That's what Paul was writing about. For those who argue that Hebrews 9:27 means something other than what the words suggest, I invite a reading of Hebrews 9:11-28. The passage speaks to Jewish Law and how it's applied to salvation in Jesus (Yeshua as the Son of God is called in Hebrew). Paul's assertion is that the sacrifice of Yeshua is sufficient to atone for sin and that His (Yeshua's) suffering is a substitutionary judgment.

Perhaps the notion of substitutionary judgment is a bit complicated for some to embrace. Simply put it means that God grants His eternal life (according to the Law) to those who personally accept it (which the Law requires). Those who do not come to the Master (according to the Law) and ask (according to the standards of the Law), will not be afforded the grace of eternal life (fulfillment of the Law).

In simpler words, Jesus saves.

The alternative is to refuse God's generous offer and suffer permanent irrevocable destruction.

It's really that simple.

No complicated elucidation with the purpose of inveigling the gospel is appropriate. It should also be noted that the promises of God are simple and clearly understood. Satan comes along and confuses everything so as to deceive even the elect (if such a thing was possible).

What we have here is a dialectic tension between a philosophically based argument and the eternal Law of God as it applies to the spiritual redemption of man. Philosophy argues that man isn't judged for his choices while the Law says he is.

Worldly wisdom vs. the Spirit of life. Which is it? Which is to be trusted?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<CL>Nearly all references above consider the quality of the spiritually regenerate human - one that has been granted the Second Birth. Volumes have been written about that condition. But your post does not address the two key propositions made by the Bible; one of God and the other of spiritually Unregenerate man.
...#2 Man is mortal - the natural destiny of which is death of mind body and spirit.
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a<CL>

end

I most certainly have addressed your arguments but you ignore my posts and post the same false arguments over and over and over as if by repetition that makes them true. . Your argument was wrong, is wrong and will always be wrong until you acknowledge that the word wrongly translated "mortal" in the KJV does not mean "mortal."

...All of the quotations and defensive maneuvers posted previously cannot subvert the truth of God's eternal Word....

Meaningless argumentation unless you can show me how the scripture I posted do not mean exactly what they say. There were no defensive maneuvers only scripture. Here is more scripture for you to argue with.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.The Jews considered this passage to be factual.
…..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

 

[Choir Loft]

<CL>
I most certainly have addressed your arguments but you ignore my posts and post the same false arguments over and over and over as if by repetition that makes them true. . Your argument was wrong, is wrong and will always be wrong until you acknowledge that the word wrongly translated "mortal" in the KJV does not mean "mortal."

It isn't necessary to examine every atom of a fog to know it hides things.

Now here is a mystery - an educated person who does not know the meaning of mortality or the simple difference between immortality and that which dies.

Once again we are treated to deliberate obfuscation in a vague attempt to mask the meaning of a simple word; mortal. The meaning is clear and appears in many English translations.

NIV, New Living Translation, English Standard Translation, Berean Study Bible, New American Standard, KJV, Christian Standard Bible, Good News Translation and many others. Which meaning of mortal is not understood?

Once again the key verses are quoted.

#1 Only God is immortal.
“who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light” - 1 Timothy 6:16

#2 Man is mortal - the natural destiny of which is death of mind body and spirit.
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a

True or False? Say it simply and clearly. Is only God immortal? Yes or no?
True or False? Say it simply and clearly. Is man mortal? Yes or no?

Why the devious attitude if only to justify a false doctrine? Why the denial and nit picking attitude toward simple words with clear meaning (mortal & immortal)?

Only God is immortal. Show Biblical verses which prove otherwise.

Bottom line is the good news of the gospel reveals God's desire to bless those who come to Him. He does so with His own immortal life. We aren't talking about gardens flowing with sweet water below the desert floor. We are talking about eternal life with God.

If man didn't need immortality, then why did God die on the cross?

Or do you deny this as well?

Did God die on the cross for our sins? Yes or no.

There is only one answer to the reason for confusion and that is the deceiver's own wish to distract mankind from the truth of the Word of God - from Genesis to the present day....

MAN NEEDS A SAVIOR because man is a sinner. How many millions more must die to prove this point? All the wars and crime throughout history prove man is a sinner and needs redemption. We are all guilty. The Bible says so even if one's conscience is so seared it cannot appreciate its own guilt. We all have blood on our hands and deserve to die in our sins.

Man cannot and WILL NOT save himself. Therefore God had to intervene in history to do it for us.

Can a bankrupt man finance his wishes and desires or pay his own fines? He cannot. Neither can a sinner justify himself before God or man. Guilt and the stain of blood unjustly spilled cannot be sponged away with meaningless appeals to philosophy. Blood guilt can only be cleansed by innocent blood - and NO MAN possesses such purity. We cannot save ourselves. That is why we need a savior who has shed His blood for us.

The wages of sin is death. Blood guilt demands reprisal. Justice demands punishment. Death is the only appropriate sentence. But Jesus died in His innocence so as to enable His merciful forgiveness of our sins.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

JUSTICE DEMANDS PAYMENT IN BLOOD.
MERCY WITHOUT BLOOD IS IMPOSSIBLE.

The cross upon which Jesus died joins mercy with justice. It is the only way man can find mercy & justice in the hand of God.

Complication and confusion of simple words and meanings are a feeble attempt to erase blood guilt of man and to hide the truth of life and death and eternity.

Those who die in their sins are lost and destroyed. Death is justice due them.
Christ died without sin so that His innocence could be substituted upon us and in us - enabling God to grant mercy and eternal life to those who acknowledge Christ's sacrifice, according to God's Holy Law.

Confusion is of the devil. Always has been since Genesis 3. God is not a liar. Death is death always, but eternal life is the gift of God to those who turn to Christ Jesus - who paid the price for our sins in His own blood and enables mercy upon those who accept it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Der Alte]

It isn't necessary to examine every atom of a fog to know it hides things.

Now here is a mystery - an educated person who does not know the meaning of mortality or the simple difference between immortality and that which dies.

Once again we are treated to deliberate obfuscation in a vague attempt to mask the meaning of a simple word; mortal. The meaning is clear and appears in many English translations.

NIV, New Living Translation, English Standard Translation, Berean Study Bible, New American Standard, KJV, Christian Standard Bible, Good News Translation and many others. Which meaning of mortal is not understood?

Once again the key verses are quoted.

#1 Only God is immortal.
“who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light” - 1 Timothy 6:16

#2 Man is mortal - the natural destiny of which is death of mind body and spirit.
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a

True or False? Say it simply and clearly. Is only God immortal? Yes or no?
True or False? Say it simply and clearly. Is man mortal? Yes or no?

Why the devious attitude if only to justify a false doctrine? Why the denial and nit picking attitude toward simple words with clear meaning (mortal & immortal)?

Only God is immortal. Show Biblical verses which prove otherwise.

Bottom line is the good news of the gospel reveals God's desire to bless those who come to Him. He does so with His own immortal life. We aren't talking about gardens flowing with sweet water below the desert floor. We are talking about eternal life with God.

If man didn't need immortality, then why did God die on the cross?

Or do you deny this as well?

Did God die on the cross for our sins? Yes or no.

There is only one answer to the reason for confusion and that is the deceiver's own wish to distract mankind from the truth of the Word of God - from Genesis to the present day....

MAN NEEDS A SAVIOR because man is a sinner. How many millions more must die to prove this point? All the wars and crime throughout history prove man is a sinner and needs redemption. We are all guilty. The Bible says so even if one's conscience is so seared it cannot appreciate its own guilt. We all have blood on our hands and deserve to die in our sins.

Man cannot and WILL NOT save himself. Therefore God had to intervene in history to do it for us.

Can a bankrupt man finance his wishes and desires or pay his own fines? He cannot. Neither can a sinner justify himself before God or man. Guilt and the stain of blood unjustly spilled cannot be sponged away with meaningless appeals to philosophy. Blood guilt can only be cleansed by innocent blood - and NO MAN possesses such purity. We cannot save ourselves. That is why we need a savior who has shed His blood for us.

The wages of sin is death. Blood guilt demands reprisal. Justice demands punishment. Death is the only appropriate sentence. But Jesus died in His innocence so as to enable His merciful forgiveness of our sins.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

JUSTICE DEMANDS PAYMENT IN BLOOD.
MERCY WITHOUT BLOOD IS IMPOSSIBLE.

The cross upon which Jesus died joins mercy with justice. It is the only way man can find mercy & justice in the hand of God.

Complication and confusion of simple words and meanings are a feeble attempt to erase blood guilt of man and to hide the truth of life and death and eternity.

Those who die in their sins are lost and destroyed. Death is justice due them.
Christ died without sin so that His innocence could be substituted upon us and in us - enabling God to grant mercy and eternal life to those who acknowledge Christ's sacrifice, according to God's Holy Law.

Confusion is of the devil. Always has been since Genesis 3. God is not a liar. Death is death always, but eternal life is the gift of God to those who turn to Christ Jesus - who paid the price for our sins in His own blood and enables mercy upon those who accept it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

A lot of smoke and mirrors and empty hollering which does not establish anything.
When he was criticized for the way he conducted the civil war Abraham Lincoln replied.

“If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business. I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out all right, what's said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference.”​

.....Anybody can scour the internet and find a Bible version which supports almost any heterodox belief. The question here is what does Gen 6:3 say? It appears Mssr Loft wants it to say "man is mortal" so that it will support his assumptions/presuppositions.

225 BC LXX Genesis 6:4
(4) And the Lord God said, My Spirit shall certainly not remain among these men for ever, because they are flesh, but their days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
1917 JPS Genesis 6:3
(3) And the LORD said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh
[בָּשָׂר/basar]; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'
Here are two Jewish translations. The 225 BC Septuagint and the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translations. That should settle the matter. Here is the definition of the word in question.

H1320 בָּשָׂר bâśâr baw-sawr'
From H1319; flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man: - body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin.
Total KJV occurrences: 270​

The Hebrew word for mortal is Enosh, which is the name of the son of Seth, Adam's 3rd son.

H582 אֱנוֹשׁ 'ĕnôsh en-oshe'
From H605; properly a mortal (and thus differeing from the more dignified H120); hence a man in general (singly or collectively). It is often unexpressed in the English Version, especially when used in apposition with another word: - another, X [blood-] thirsty, certain, chap [-man], divers, fellow, X in the flower of their age, husband, (certain, mortal) man, people, person, servant, some (X of them), + stranger, those, + their trade. It is often unexpressed in the Engl. version, especially when used in apposition with another word. Compare H376.​

​

 

[SarahsKnight]

The Bible NEVER suggests or implies the existence of eternal everlasting sin, but those who believe in Hell think so. God is not a socio-path who enjoys eternal torture. The Bible says He is merciful even unto SINNERS who reject Him. He sentences them to death

And yet, by the power of spoken tradition, most other Christians will scream at you that the Bible CLEARLY teaches inherently immortal souls and eternal torture in hell. That's how powerful tradition is, even when there is so much Scripture right there in your face plainly speaking of the very opposite.
You'll just get told that you hate Jesus and His teachings for being an annihlationist. Which of course is complete bull.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<SK>And yet, by the power of spoken tradition, most other Christians will scream at you that the Bible CLEARLY teaches inherently immortal souls and eternal torture in hell. That's how powerful tradition is, even when there is so much Scripture right there in your face plainly speaking of the very opposite.
You'll just get told that you hate Jesus and His teachings for being an annihlationist. Which of course is complete bull.<SK>

end

Here is scripture right there in your face which shows the unrighteous dead in hell having some kind of conscious awareness moving, speaking etc.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

The Jews believed this passage to be factual. In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

 

[Gr8Grace]

Did God die on the cross for our sins? Yes or no.

Yes.

BUT, did the Lord Jesus Christ die for the sins of the whole world? All sin? Yes.

He paid for ALL sin. So the unbeliever is not paying for the wages of sin.........The debt unbelievers pay is MUCH higher than the wages of sin. They rejected what the Lord Jesus Christ did for them. Which is eternal.

For the believer it is eternal life.

For the unbeliever it is eternal death. Their wages for sin has been paid. They are paying the eternal wages of having their sin paid for and REJECTING it.(Christ's payment was eternal)

Acts 24:15~~New American Standard Bible
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Arguing the wages of sin is death is a false premise. The Lord Jesus Christ paid the sin debt.

The wages of rejecting the eternal work Christ did......are eternal wages to be paid.

 

[Gr8Grace]

And yet, by the power of spoken tradition, most other Christians will scream at you that the Bible CLEARLY teaches inherently immortal souls and eternal torture in hell. That's how powerful tradition is, even when there is so much Scripture right there in your face plainly speaking of the very opposite.
You'll just get told that you hate Jesus and His teachings for being an annihlationist. Which of course is complete bull.

Just don't forget.......the Lord Jesus Christ paid the sin debt. And it was an eternal payment.

So unbelievers are not paying for sin. They are paying the wages for rejecting the FACT that The Lord Jesus Christ paid for their sins.

IMO, that will be the torment. They will be in the LoF KNOWING that all their sins are paid for and they rejected it. And Christ's payment for them was eternal, so the wages they pay are eternal.

 

[SarahsKnight]

They will be in the LoF KNOWING that all their sins are paid for and they rejected it.

No, they will be in the lake of fire, dead. Fire consume and destroys; it does not preserve in pain or any kind of torment. Every time other than Revelation 14 - and please, aside from clearly speaking of anti-Christ folk while they are still on planet Earth and not yet in any kind of afterlife or post-judgment world, the wording here about the smoke going up forever and ever is clearly a reference back to how the destruction of Edom was described in Isaiah 34: a clear picture of everlasting destruction in which not a soul shall live instead of some spectacle of living creatures still inside the burning being supernaturally preserved to feel the pain but never actually be killed and turned to ash by the fire - the fire of God has slain the object of His judgment. Clearly consumed the individual or group of living creatures. In fact, oftentimes the unsaved person's fate in Scripture has been described as being consumed or destroyed, and even a few times in the gospels as burnt UP. There is no hint of being preserved in torment. Very few verses in all of Scripture so much as suggest eternal torment or is compatible with it. The only time I see in Scripture where fire from God actually did preserve the object it fell upon instead of consuming was the burning bush sign to Moses - in other words, the situation had nothing to do with punishing or judging a living soul. I don't know why it is so hard for some Christians to accept this, the natural function of fire and what it does to living flesh along with so much Scripture that almost could not state more plainly that the lost are ultimately destroyed by fire and they will have no life, period.

... Or perhaps I do; perhaps @EastCoastRemnant already found the answer in his very first post in this entire thread: a carnal need for vengeance and suffering upon their enemies is what drives some of them who believe in ECT.


And no, no one even try to tell me that I diminish the suffering of Christ upon the cross (I have already heard that cop-out shutdown tactic from traditionalists before). I wouldn't have wanted to be in His shoes for a second during his six hours of agony and humiliation ending in His death. It's a price I in fact could not pay, and would never want to in exchange for a life of unbelief. The picture of His suffering and then death in the gospels comes far closer to the annihlationist's view of final punishment for unbelievers than ECT does, anyway.

 

[Der Alte]

No, they will be in the lake of fire, dead. Fire consume and destroys; it does not preserve in pain or any kind of torment. Every time other than Revelation 14 - and please, aside from clearly speaking of anti-Christ folk while they are still on planet Earth and not yet in any kind of afterlife or post-judgment world, the wording here about the smoke going up forever and ever is clearly a reference back to how the destruction of Edom was described in Isaiah 34: a clear picture of everlasting destruction in which not a soul shall live instead of some spectacle of living creatures still inside the burning being supernaturally preserved to feel the pain but never actually be killed and turned to ash by the fire - the fire of God has slain the object of His judgment. Clearly consumed the individual or group of living creatures. In fact, oftentimes the unsaved person's fate in Scripture has been described as being consumed or destroyed, and even a few times in the gospels as burnt UP. There is no hint of being preserved in torment. Very few verses in all of Scripture so much as suggest eternal torment or is compatible with it. The only time I see in Scripture where fire from God actually did preserve the object it fell upon instead of consuming was the burning bush sign to Moses - in other words, the situation had nothing to do with punishing or judging a living soul. I don't know why it is so hard for some Christians to accept this, the natural function of fire and what it does to living flesh along with so much Scripture that almost could not state more plainly that the lost are ultimately destroyed by fire and they will have no life, period.
... Or perhaps I do; perhaps @EastCoastRemnant already found the answer in his very first post in this entire thread: a carnal need for vengeance and suffering upon their enemies is what drives some of them who believe in ECT.
And no, no one even try to tell me that I diminish the suffering of Christ upon the cross (I have already heard that cop-out shutdown tactic from traditionalists before). I wouldn't have wanted to be in His shoes for a second during his six hours of agony and humiliation ending in His death. It's a price I in fact could not pay, and would never want to in exchange for a life of unbelief. The picture of His suffering and then death in the gospels comes far closer to the annihlationist's view of final punishment for unbelievers than ECT does, anyway.

When God wants fire to not destroy or harm something then it does not harm or destroy. God is not constrained by any physical or any other kind of limitations which man is subject to.

Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Daniel 3:22-25
(22) Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
(23) And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
(24) Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
(25) He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
...
Daniel 3:27
(27) And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
1000 years later
Revelation 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [who is a human being] are, and [they do not die but] shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.




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