Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

FineLinen · Nov 24, 2018

Dear Clement: The resident scholar of the J.E. will most assuredly tell us Dr. Jenkins is irrelevant, but alas, so be it.

Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in aionios
How Words "Mean" in Greek and English
Dr. Orville Boyd Jenkins

Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in <em>aionios</em>: How Words "Mean" in Greek and English

Der Alte · Nov 24, 2018

FineLinen said:
<FL>Dear Clement: The resident scholar of the J.E. will most assuredly tell us Dr. Jenkins is irrelevant, but alas, so be it.
Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in aionios
How Words "Mean" in Greek and English
Dr. Orville Boyd Jenkins
Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in <em>aionios</em>: How Words "Mean" in Greek and English<end>

From your link.

Of a Different Kind
Plato's own idea of what has been translated as "the Eternal" is not so much metaphysical as focused on difference in kind. The focus was "not subject to decline," "undiminishable," not subject to time," or in modern terms, "not subject to entropy."
William Barclay, in his excellent essay on this word aionios, comments on all the connotations of the various usage of aionios and specifically about Plato's use:
"But it was Plato who took this word aionios – he may even have coined it – and gave it its special mysterious meaning. To put it briefly, for Plato aionios is the word of eternity in contrast with time. Plato uses it, as it has been said, 'to denote that which has neither beginning nor end, and that is subject to neither change nor decay, that which is above time, but of which time is a moving image'.
"Plato does not mean by this word simply indefinite continuance – this is a point to which we must later return – but that which is above and beyond time."
He proceeds to cite three instances of this different focus. These are all good additional illustrations of why it is incorrect to translate the Greek word aionios as "eternal" or "everlasting."
Barclay concludes, among other details and insights:
"Simply to take the word aionios, when it refers to blessings and punishment, to mean lasting far ever is to oversimplify, and indeed to misunderstand, the word altogether. It means far more than that."

But then Dr. Jenkins contradicts himself and says this.

Integrity of the Text
Let me just restate: No word in any one language “MEANS” any other word in some other language. Each word or phrase in any language bears its own integrity, which arises out of its place in the cultural worldview of the people whose language that is!

Many scholars believe that Plato coined the adjective "aionios" because it first occurs in his writings. But let us ignore all other scholars, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker, Robertson because one guy tells us us "No word in any one language “MEANS” any other word in some other language." Okay let's take that to its logical conclusion. So there is nobody on this forum who can tell us what any Greek word means in English. Thank you mr. Linen for bringing this to our attention.

FineLinen · Nov 24, 2018

Dear D.A.: Clement and mr. linen will do anything to get you to sing one note of the Anthem the angels are singing>>>>>glad tidings of great joy which is to ALL people.

I AM A CONVINCED UNIVERSALIST, by William Barclay

God is the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all

Der Alte · Nov 24, 2018

FineLinen said:
Dear D.A.: Clement and mr. linen will do anything to get you to sing one note of the Anthem the angels are singing>>>>>glad tidings of great joy which is to ALL people....

I note how you completely ignored my post and the humongous contradiction in your quote from Dr. Jenkins.As long as UR "sources" are self contradictory I will never sing the UR hymn, "Glad tidings of great joy to all mankind righteous and unrighteous alike."

ClementofA · Nov 24, 2018

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

*************************************************

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

"Relationship with God is the most important thing."

mark kennedy · Nov 24, 2018

DM25 said:
Before I begin I want to say that I am in no way one of those people who believe in annihilation to please my flesh or rely on my own understanding to make myself feel better. Sure you can use God's character as an argument, but I am here to show you pure biblical evidence where God clearly states the punishment for sin is death. If I saw in scripture God clearly say the wicked will have eternal conscious torment and hell is an eternal torture chamber, I would still trust him and accept that. But I just don't see the biblical evidence for this popular belief and ironically enough, so many Christians who are deep in the bible and far in their walk believe this view and think the truth (death of the wicked) is unbiblcal. I think scripture was twisted and the church popularized this false belief, and they obviously did a good job in it. As a side note, I truly think ceasing to exist is actually the worst punishment of all because you will never get a chance for life and you can never feel anything, so God is still just in that case and the wicked will pay for rejecting God. Some people believe in universal salvation which I do think is unbiblical.

I believe the lake of fire is a very real place. It clearly says the lake of fire is real in scripture, and there will be torment and punishment in there before the souls of the wicked perish and God restores his creation. When God makes the new heaven and new earth as stated in revelation, there will be no more room for suffering and evil. All evil will die and there will be no more need for existence of it. A lot of people make the argument that all souls are eternal, but that doesn't make any sense because before we were born, we did not exist. So we are not eternal in the way God is. Not to mention God has the power to destroy souls because he is the almighty creator. The bible says the righteous will have everlasting LIFE and the wicked will PERISH. It says the wages of sin is DEATH. The bible talks about everlasting "destruction". It says evil and hell will be thrown into the lake and fire for the second DEATH. I know a lot of people will make the argument death only refers to spiritual death, but it does not specifically say this in the bible, death means death, not only spiritual death but the death of your soul, and it seems pretty clear in the bible so there is no need to add to it. Most of all it talks about how the gift Jesus gives to the righteous is life, and if you don't believe in him you will receive the opposite which is death. The eternal punishment the bible talks about is the destruction of the soul for eternity.

Here is the biblical evidence:

Psalm 1:6 "For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 69:28 "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous" Psalm 34:16 "The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth."

Psalm 92:7 "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Proverbs 24:20 "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out"

Isaiah 1:28, 30-31 "And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Philippians 3:19 "Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;"

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death"

I've looked into that a few times and there is a Biblical argument that can be made for the utter destruction of the body and soul in the lake of fire. It actually makes sense that the suffering won't be eternal because, what would be the point? Jesus even said:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell Matthew 10:28.

When I encountered the argument originally I had never thought about it, but listening to the arguments it started to make sense.

ClementofA · Nov 25, 2018

Der Alter said:
Here is how legitimate scholars demonstrate the correct translation of Greek words.
.....Note this definition cites 69 contemporary sources which support the translator's translation. The contemporary sources are highlighted in blue.

αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos.,Bell. 4, 461αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv. [1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

The author of BDAG provides no argument, proof or explanation why he classified aionios in Matthew 25:46 under "a period of unending duration, without end". His first definition of aionios is "pert. to a long period of time". Why didn't he classify aionios in Matthew 25:46 under that definition? He doesn't say.

If early church universalists agreed with BDAG re Matthew 25:46 would they have been universalists? Evidently they do not agree with BDAG re aionios in Matthew 25:46. Unlike the author of BDAG, many of them were native born Koine Greek speakers in a Koine Greek speaking society. Some were also Koine Greek scholars. Yet BDAG's author thinks he knows better than them who were within a few hundreds years of Christ's death?

Furthermore, why does BDAG ignore their writings as well as all of the following examples of how aionios was used in ancient Koine Greek:

Two Questions

What were the theological biases of the author of BDAG? Did his biases influence him to leave out all of those uses of aionios? Or was he ignorant of them? Was he influenced to follow blindly the conclusions of his predecessors? Or to follow the opinions that would lead to selling more copies of his book? What - spirit - was controlling this man?

Why did the author of BDAG also reject the conclusions of many other modern scholars such as Moulton & Milligan who state: "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life." Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

FineLinen · Nov 25, 2018

Der Alter said:
I note how you completely ignored my post and the humongous contradiction in your quote from Dr. Jenkins.As long as UR "sources" are self contradictory I will never sing the UR hymn, "Glad tidings of great joy to all mankind righteous and unrighteous alike."

Dear DA: The "great joy which shall be to ALL people is NOT a "UR hymn" and applies to every last broken wreck of Adam1. But be of good cheer, the broken wrecks, each & every one, are destined to meet with the Last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ with His "all the more" reconciliation.

Adam 1= the polus "made sinners"

The Last Adam= the polus "made righteous"

mark kennedy · Nov 25, 2018

Oh I see, the universalists have high jacked the thread, exit stage right.

FineLinen · Nov 25, 2018

"Glad tidings of GREAT joy which shall be to ALL people">>>>

"..so abundant was God's grace,the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes.."

FineLinen · Nov 25, 2018

A Page Of Hope

Hope 4 You, Roger Tutt

FineLinen · Nov 25, 2018

"Put together all the tenderest love you know of, multiply it by infinity, and you will begin to see glimpses of the love and grace of God." - Hannah W. Smith-

Der Alte · Nov 25, 2018

FineLinen said:
시작

<FL>
Dear DA: The "great joy which shall be to ALL people is NOT a "UR hymn" and applies to every last broken wreck of Adam1. But be of good cheer, the broken wrecks, each & every one, are destined to meet with the Last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ with His "all the more" reconciliation.
Adam 1= the polus "made sinners"
The Last Adam= the polus "made righteous"<end>

종료

There seems to a marked disregard for context in the quotations. Here is the out-of-context proof text.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Note, this verse does not say "All die and all shall be made alive." There is a condition, "in Adam" and "in Christ."
.....All mankind are "in Adam" because all mankind are physical descendants of Adam. But all mankind are not "in Christ." In order to be made alive a person must be "in Christ." Note, how Paul uses the phrase "in Christ."

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The converse of this vs. is there is condemnation for those not in Christ.

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

The converse of this vs. is those not "in Christ" are not part of one body and not members one of another.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

The converse of this vs. is those not "in Christ" are not called to be saints.

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

The converse of this vs. those not "in Christ" have no hope in Christ and are miserable.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

The converse of this verse is those not "in Christ" are blinded, their eyes remain veiled

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The converse of this verse is those not in Christ are not new creatures, the old things for them have not passed away.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The converse of this vs. is those not "in Christ" are not children of God.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

The converse of this vs. is those not in "in Christ" are not new creatures.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The converse of this vs. is those not in "in Christ" are far off and not made nigh by the blood of Christ.

FineLinen · Nov 25, 2018

Der Alter said:
<FL>
Dear DA: The "great joy which shall be to ALL people is NOT a "UR hymn" and applies to every last broken wreck of Adam1. But be of good cheer, the broken wrecks, each & every one, are destined to meet with the Last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ with His "all the more" reconciliation.
Adam 1= the polus "made sinners"
The Last Adam= the polus "made righteous"<end>
There seems to a marked disregard for context in the quotations. Here is the out-of-context proof text.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Dear DA: Not quite! The "out of context proof text" is Romans chapter 5. Would you like me to place the entire out of context proof text before us? What translation would you like?

Der Alte · Nov 25, 2018

And then we have the verses where Paul unequivocally says that many groups of people will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

And I cannot find a verse anywhere in the writings of Paul where he says something like, "Don't worry although I say none of you can inherit the kingdom of heaven after death God will save everyone righteous, unrighteous, murderers, idolators, harlot mongers, everybody."

FineLinen · Nov 25, 2018

Romans Chapter 5 - Weymouth New Testament

Rotherham Emphasized

Romans 5 Having, therefore, been declared righteous by faith, let us have, peace, towards God, through our Lord Jesus Christ,—

Jonathan Mitchell N.T.

::Jonathan Mitchell's New Testament Translation::

James Moffatt

Romans 5 As we are justified by faith, then, let us enjoy the peace we have with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Twenthieth Century N.T.

Romans 5 Therefore, having been pronounced righteous as the result of faith, let us enjoy peace with God through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

English Standard Version

Romans 5 - NIV Bible - Therefore, since we have been justified through...

Young's Literal

Romans 5 - NIV Bible - Therefore, since we have been justified through...

The Message

Romans 5 - NIV Bible - Therefore, since we have been justified through...

Compare

Bible Verses by Comparison, Read Verses Using All Translations Side by Side

Romans 5:18 - Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

ClementofA · Nov 25, 2018

Der Alter said:
...

Der Alter said:
No they are not! What did the Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians understand when Paul said all those groups would not inherit the kingdom of God? There is no record that
they were ever told anything different.

How does this relate to the fact that 1 Cor.6:9-11 does not refute universalism?

Do you think 1 Cor.6:9-11 refutes universalism? How?

Der Alter said:
And what did Paul say?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that
qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

ClementofA · Nov 25, 2018

Der Alter said:
There seems to a marked disregard for context in the quotations. Here is the out-of-context proof text.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Note, this verse does not say "All die and all shall be made alive." There is a condition, "in Adam" and "in Christ."
.....All mankind are "in Adam" because all mankind are physical descendants of Adam. But all mankind are not "in Christ." In order to be made alive a person must be "in Christ."

Paul didn't say "all in Christ shall be made alive". He said "in Christ shall all be made alive". Who are the "all" of the parallel statement in the first half of the parallel:

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

How many human beings does the "all" in "in Adam all" die refer to? All mankind.

Der Alter said:
What about God’s enemies who are made a footstool for Jesus?

Isa 110:1
Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."Mat 22:44, Mar 12:36, Luk 20:43, Act 2:35

Jos 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

When enemy kings were captured they were forced to their knees and the conquerors would place their feet on the back of their necks.

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

FineLinen · Nov 25, 2018

Dear Clement: please contact me by P.M. on the Board we first met

FineLinen · Nov 25, 2018

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald. Search eText, Read Online, Study, Discuss.

Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Natura non facit saltum

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Natura non facit saltum

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Senior Veteran

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Well-Known Member

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