Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

[Der Alte]

What comment of mine are you referring to?

The verses from Romans and Corinthians in the post I responded to and/or any other post where you try to prove something in one book from something in another book.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

none of what you quoted is preceded by "Thus saith the Lord."

Thus saith the Lord: "The Bible."

 

[ClementofA]

The verses from Romans and Corinthians in the post I responded to and/or any other post where you try to prove something in one book from something in another book.

I used Romans 5:18-19 to prove universalism from Romans. Then you went on a wild goose chase with verses from other epistles & contexts. Pot-kettle, anyone?

7 Myths About Universalism

 

[Der Alte]

Thus saith the Lord: "The Bible."

Are the words of Satan which are in the Bible "Thus saith the Lord?" Are the words of nonbelievers, pagans etc. which are in the Bible "Thus saith the Lord?"

1 Corinthians 7:6
(6) But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
1 Corinthians 7:25
(25) Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
2 Corinthians 8:8
(8) I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.​

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

Are the words of Satan which are in the Bible "Thus saith the Lord?" Are the words of nonbelievers, pagans etc. which are in the Bible "Thus saith the Lord?"

1 Corinthians 7:6
(6) But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
1 Corinthians 7:25
(25) Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
2 Corinthians 8:8
(8) I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.​

You completely missed the point.

You don't need 3 passages to back up your ridiculously obvious, common sense, universally accepted idea that the words of other people are recorded in the bible. No one is challenging that. It is a tangent.

You completely missed the point.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

Then you went on a wild goose chase

This is a common theme.

 

[ClementofA]

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

Do Catholics teach some form of Universalism?

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

Do Catholics teach some form of Universalism?

Chess is built entirely off of the implementation of logic.

You get into heaven primarily by having faith.

Faith is the opposite of logic.

Therefore, getting into heaven is nothing like winning a chess game.

 

[Oseas]

You get into heaven primarily by having faith.

Heaven? What is heaven? What is and where is the heaven based on the Bible?

 

[ClementofA]

Chess is built entirely off of the implementation of logic.

You get into heaven primarily by having faith.

Faith is the opposite of logic.

Therefore, getting into heaven is nothing like winning a chess game.

A chess game is not about getting into heaven.

I guess the point of the chess example is that our efforts to resist salvation are non existent against one with far superior powers.

Simply put, the One Who is Love Omnipotent can cause you to have faith anytime it pleases Him. He doesn't need to send any being into endless oblivion or torments.

He can use His other abilities, such as Omnipresence & Omniscience, which relates to the chess example, to the same effect.

Potter & clay.

For more discussion on this type of topic:

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

 

[Oseas]

A chess game is not about getting into heaven.

Heaven? What is heaven? What is and where is the heaven based on the Bible?

 

[Oseas]

Chess is built entirely off of the implementation of logic.

You get into heaven primarily by having faith.

Faith is the opposite of logic.

Therefore, getting into heaven is nothing like winning a chess game.

You get into heaven primarily by having faith.

SKY all mankind knows what it is. But what is heaven according to the Bible?
It is not the same, is it? Am I right?

 

[Der Alte]

You completely missed the point.
You don't need 3 passages to back up your ridiculously obvious, common sense, universally accepted idea that the words of other people are recorded in the bible. No one is challenging that. It is a tangent.
You completely missed the point.

What exactly do you think throwing around a bunch of pejorative adjectives accomplishes? If you have a point then state it.

 

[Der Alte]

I used Romans 5:18-19 to prove universalism from Romans. Then you went on a wild goose chase with verses from other epistles & contexts. Pot-kettle, anyone?...

That is not a pot-kettle situation which is person 1 accusing person 2 of doing what person 1 is doing.
.....So I get your posts mixed up. I do know that you try to prove several passages, in Paul, which clearly state that certain people will not inherit the kingdom of God don't really mean that because of something Paul said to a different church.
.....Please spare me the repetitious links I do not read them.ything that Paul wrote to other churches. Without that the only reasonable conclusion is when Paul told churches that certain people would not inherit the kingdom of God that is exactly what they would have understood and Paul did not tell them otherwise. point, set, match.

 

[ClementofA]

I do know that you try to prove several passages, in Paul, which clearly state that certain people will not inherit the kingdom of God don't really mean that because of something Paul said to a different church.
... would have understood and Paul did not tell them otherwise. point, set, match.

It does really mean that, which i've never denied, but not according to your imaginary mis-interpretation of it. As previous discussions on the passage revealed:

And what did Paul say?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Hope Beyond Hell.pdf

 

[Oseas]

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

What you did write has nothing to do with was in the mind of the Apostle Paul. He left clear to the false believers of the Church in Corintho they were unrighteous and will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul did know them, he did know the tares that was sowed among the believers of Church of Corintho and the Apostle manifested this contamination among the true believers.

They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

You say that in accord your conception. But JESUS left very clear: (Mat.7:18-19) 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

The King said to his servants: The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

And the Lord JESUS warned: Matthew 22:9-14
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the King came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the King to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

• What the Lord JESUS said above will fulfil LITERALY in the days ahead, in this exactly time of Apocalypse, that is the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day, that is the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the illennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Millennium of Vengeance.

Remember: We can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

 

[ClementofA]

The King said to his servants: The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

And the Lord JESUS warned: Matthew 22:9-14
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the King came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the King to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

• .

Where does that, or any other Scripture, say anyone will be annihilated forever or suffer endless tortures?

1. Scripture teaches all those who are reconciled shall be saved in His life (Rom.5:10)

and

2. Scripture also teaches the world is reconciled, (Rom.5:10; 11:15; 2 Cor.5:19)

therefore

3. It follows that the world shall be saved in His life.

True or false?

-


Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Romans 5:10 says that those who have been reconciled "shall be saved by His life".

Therefore it could be argued that if the world has been reconciled to God (cf. 2 Cor.5:19; Rom.11:15; 5:9-11), then likewise the world also "shall be saved by His life".

2 Cor. 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?


Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

 

[Der Alte]

It does really mean that, which i've never denied, but not according to your imaginary mis-interpretation of it. As previous discussions on the passage revealed:

If you accuse me of misinterpreting something show me how or keep your accusations to yourself.

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Note the tenses of the verbs "Were" past tense. "Are, present tense.

As a commentator says:

The words of anonymous "commentators" with no demonstrated or stated qualification, are irrelevant.

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

Please show me any verse(s) which state that all those groups that Paul mentioned will be cleansed?

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

No they are not! What did the Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians understand when Paul said all those groups would not inherit the kingdom of God? There is no record that they were ever told anything different.

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

Where does that, or any other Scripture, say anyone will be annihilated forever or suffer endless tortures?

Matthew 25:46
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Daniel 12:2

The Parable of the Tares

Revelation 20:15
Psalms 37:38
Proverbs 14:11
Proverbs 10:29
Philippians 3:19

Just to name a few... There are literally dozens more.

What exactly are you proposing? How does God save everyone? Does he resurrect those cast into the lake of fire a second time? Or do deny that the wicked will be punished altogether? How does this work in your mind?

 

[Jordan Henshaw]

The words of anonymous "commentators" with no demonstrated or stated qualification, are irrelevant.

This is almost infuriating. Again, you completely missed the point.

The point of that line was not to establish an authority, but to borrow a more eloquent writer's commentary on the subject that more effectively communicated the idea to be expressed. He is not asking you to trust that commentator's words. He is trying to communicate an idea. He is not trying to prove anything. He is simply trying to communicate more effectively.

In a court, it would maybe qualify as hearsay, but no lawyer would object to it because the purpose of it is so clearly to communicate rather than to prove. Especially since the quoted statement is not even declarative in nature, but is instead a series of questions.