Save everyone?

WESTOZZIE

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I read someone say that Jesus did not pay for the Pharisees sins...so they believe in a thing called " limited atonement " . They can believe such a thing.
I cannot believe in a limited atonement.
There came a point in my walk when the clash between my head knowledge of doctrines versus my heart knowledge brought me to pray a dangerous prayer.
That prayer was something like--'Father in heaven, there is something in me that is blocking the flow of your love towards all others --please show me what it is that I might repent and flow with you. Lord Jesus--NO MATTER what the cost I want you to show me what it is!?'
On my 50th birthday after being a believer in eternal damnation all my life my Father graciously opened my eyes to His good purposes for ALL mankind...He gently showed me how I had believed a monstrous lie about Him and His nature...I wept much as I spent weeks discovering that His purpose to save all eventually through faith in Jesus Christ was all there in Scripture. I sat amazed at the blindness I was under previously. I saw that I had been living as a Christian trying hard to love God but deep in my psyche I hated and feared and loathed him....because his love was not unconditional....because he could not save all erring children he had made...because he had no power at all to change me....and at the same time he put all the responsibility upon me to be holy and good enough to escape the eternal damnation he had made for people like me and the Devil.
I wanted nothing to do with that god ever again! In the years since then, the loving Father of my heart has been untangling the web of lies that the false father had sewn in me. The false father's lies are what the visible church believes. I cannot tolerate it. It makes my heart so sad. Christians can have their hell god---I want nothing to do with it. I commit myself to the Loving heavenly Father who saved me and carries me all the way as a father carries his son.
I know my Father 's heart....He shall not fail to save all people, no matter how far they are into sin. The cross of Jesus was the atonement for the whole world..1 John 2:1 I am glad that my lesbian friends and homosexual friends shall all one day know the saving mercy and grace of Father.
 
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ClementofA

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In the bible damnation = burning in hell forever.

Are you of the KJV is inspired & inerrant crowd of Calvinists? Most versions don't say "damnation but "judgement" (Jn.5:29): John 5:29 and come out--those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Judgement is a good thing:

When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn.1:29)

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. (Jn.3:17)

They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world." (Jn.4:42)

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (Jn.12:32)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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ClementofA

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You must throw away large portions of the bible to hold your views. We already showed how Jesus did not pay for the Pharisees sins in John 10. Certainly these are not saved.

John 10 says no such thing. Jesus says He will baptize the Pharisees "with the Holy Spirit and with fire":

Matthew 3: NASB
7 But when John saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his place of baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

213 Questions Without Answers:
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ClementofA

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“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” (Matthew 25:41)

Matthew 25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers. (CLV)

Online Parallel Study Bibles

Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; (YLT)

"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels. (WEY)

The same Greek words for "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) are used in Jude 1:7:

Jude 7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLV)

Do you believe that the city of Sodom in Israel today is still burning from the fire that destroyed it? Will the burning be "eternal" or has the "eternal fire" already ended? In which case "eternal" is a deceptive translation & the fire was temporary, not "eternal".

Do you think the city of Sodom in Israel is still burning by that "eternal fire" today? Or has it long ago been extinguished & was not "eternal" but eonian & finite? BTW, the same phrase, "eonian fire" also appears twice in Matthew (25:41; 18:8). If the eonian fire of Jude 1:7 was finite, then why can't the same in Matthew's account be finite?

Were the bodies of the people of Sodom destroyed (killed) by that fire destroyed forever, i.e. endlessly annihilated. No, it is a temporary destruction until their resurrection. Their resurrection will reverse that destruction. IOW the resurrection will destroy that destruction. Love Omnipotent destroys and then He makes alive again what He destroyed:

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." (Dt.32:39)

Furthermore, Sodom (cf. Jude 1:7) will be restored:

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Heb.10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.


In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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ClementofA

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Luke 13:23-25
(23) Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
(24) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(25) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luke 13:27
(27) But he shall say,
I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Again, nothing there refutes the Biblical teaching of universalism. Nor did you provide any proof to the contrary based upon Luke 13 or any other passage of Scripture. Such does not exist.

Luke 13:23-28
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

That refers to the time of Christ's return & what happens then. It says nothing about final destiny or anyone being pointlessly, sadistically tortured endlessly.

"Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(23) Are there few that be saved?--More accurately, that are being saved, or, that are in the way of salvation. The Greek participle is present, not perfect, and this sense should be borne in mind..."

Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Are there few that BE saved? Present tense. It does not speak of final destiny.

23 and a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' (YLT)
23 And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? (NASB)
23 Now someone said to Him, "Lord, are few being saved? (CLV)
23 Said and one to him: O lord, are few those being saved? (Diaglott)

Jesus doesn't answer the question directly. He says many will seek to enter "at the straight gate" and shall not "be able". It seems they were trying to enter but, for some reason, didn't have the ability. Jesus does not say the "many" will *never* be able to enter or never be saved. To the contrary, Paul says "many", not few, shall be saved, by which He means all:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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WESTOZZIE

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God is the Father of all spirits. When He breathed Ruach into Adam, Adam's soul/body came alive. At death the spirit, which belongs to God returns to Him. The soul, which is not yet immortal awaits the resurrection spoken of in John 5. The soul of the wicked kings of Israel and Judah are said to be resting with their fathers in the grave.....along with the souls of the "good" kings. King Ahab rests with King David in the grave.....which the KJV has translated as HELL when it suits the propagandised mind of the translators. Furthermore, AFTER the cross, and AFTER the resurrection of Jesus..and AFTER Jesus' ascension Peter said that "David IS(present tense)both dead and buried and his tomb is with us to this day"---The man David(his soul and body)still rest in the grave(Sheol/Hades) to this day!! Oh you might say..."But I thought he was taken out of there by Jesus and taken up to Heaven??" Not according to Peter.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. KJV

David's spirit is with the Lord ...but his soul--the man they all met and knew in his day--is both dead and buried.
Ahab's spirit is with the Lord...but his soul--the man they all met and knew in his day--is both dead and buried.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

NO ONE who has died is at this moment being tormented in any prison cells with burning flames tormenting them. The resurrection shall see all people raised up and God has promised that all people shall declare that in Him alone they have righteousness and strength. That is the declaration of someone who BELIEVES in Jesus our righteousness...not the declaration of someone being forced to say it under threat of torture.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isa 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Flee the false god of eternal torment!!
 
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FineLinen

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God is the Father of all spirits. When He breathed Ruach into Adam, Adam's soul/body came alive. At death the spirit, which belongs to God returns to Him. The soul, which is not yet immortal awaits the resurrection spoken of in John 5. The soul of the wicked kings of Israel and Judah are said to be resting with their fathers in the grave.....along with the souls of the "good" kings. King Ahab rests with King David in the grave.....which the KJV has translated as HELL when it suits the propagandised mind of the translators. Furthermore, AFTER the cross, and AFTER the resurrection of Jesus..and AFTER Jesus' ascension Peter said that "David IS(present tense)both dead and buried and his tomb is with us to this day"---The man David(his soul and body)still rest in the grave(Sheol/Hades) to this day!! Oh you might say..."But I thought he was taken out of there by Jesus and taken up to Heaven??" Not according to Peter.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. KJV

David's spirit is with the Lord ...but his soul--the man they all met and knew in his day--is both dead and buried.
Ahab's spirit is with the Lord...but his soul--the man they all met and knew in his day--is both dead and buried.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

NO ONE who has died is at this moment being tormented in any prison cells with burning flames tormenting them. The resurrection shall see all people raised up and God has promised that all people shall declare that in Him alone they have righteousness and strength. That is the declaration of someone who BELIEVES in Jesus our righteousness...not the declaration of someone being forced to say it under threat of torture.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isa 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Flee the false god of eternal torment!!

"In a universe of love there can be no heaven which tolerates a chamber of horrors." -John Robinson-

My brother: You & I and others know the Beginning is the End! The Father of Glory has a wonderful plan that begins in Him & ends in Him. The entire ta panta ends in Him, every last broken sinner, in every dimension of the heavens, the earth & the underworld! He loses NOTHING. Let me state it again>>>>>

"Gather up the fragments that NOTHING be lost/wasted"
 
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Dave L

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Matthew 25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers. (CLV)

Online Parallel Study Bibles

Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; (YLT)

"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels. (WEY)

The same Greek words for "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) are used in Jude 1:7:

Jude 7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLV)

Do you believe that the city of Sodom in Israel today is still burning from the fire that destroyed it? Will the burning be "eternal" or has the "eternal fire" already ended? In which case "eternal" is a deceptive translation & the fire was temporary, not "eternal".

Do you think the city of Sodom in Israel is still burning by that "eternal fire" today? Or has it long ago been extinguished & was not "eternal" but eonian & finite? BTW, the same phrase, "eonian fire" also appears twice in Matthew (25:41; 18:8). If the eonian fire of Jude 1:7 was finite, then why can't the same in Matthew's account be finite?

Were the bodies of the people of Sodom destroyed (killed) by that fire destroyed forever, i.e. endlessly annihilated. No, it is a temporary destruction until their resurrection. Their resurrection will reverse that destruction. IOW the resurrection will destroy that destruction. Love Omnipotent destroys and then He makes alive again what He destroyed:

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." (Dt.32:39)

Furthermore, Sodom (cf. Jude 1:7) will be restored:

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Heb.10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.


In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
We'll find out if you are right. But hell is not a motivator for righteousness. Only love is the true motive. Unless God grants the new birth, we cannot understand the passages we cherish. And we will always twist them. So I don't put too much stock in your efforts to enlighten we knowing this.
 
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Dave L

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John 10 says no such thing. Jesus says He will baptize the Pharisees "with the Holy Spirit and with fire":

Matthew 3: NASB
7 But when John saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his place of baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers
“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)
“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)
 
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FineLinen

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Dear Dave: The sheep are His, the goats are His, the ten wise virgins are His, the 5 wise virgins are His, the 5 unwise virgins are His. You need to rejoice in this fact, since the entire discourse of the Master of Reconciliation in St. Matthew 25 is directed to the members of His people!

"In a universe of love there can be no heaven which tolerates a chamber of horrors." -John Robinson-

The Father of Glory has a wonderful plan that begins in Him & ends in Him. The entire ta panta ends in Him, every last broken sinner, in every dimension of the heavens, the earth & the underworld! He loses NOTHING.

Let Jesus Christ state it again>>>>>

"Gather up the fragments... that NOTHING be lost/wasted"
 
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Dave L

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Are you of the KJV is inspired & inerrant crowd of Calvinists? Most versions don't say "damnation but "judgement" (Jn.5:29): John 5:29 and come out--those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Judgement is a good thing:

When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn.1:29)

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. (Jn.3:17)

They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world." (Jn.4:42)

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (Jn.12:32)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Every post you make on this topic is a twisting of scripture. And I can prove that unless a person is born again, they can do nothing but twist scripture. So every post you make only proves my point.
 
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Dave L

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Dear Dave: The sheep are His, the goats are His, the ten wise virgins are His, the 5 wise virgins are His, the 5 unwise virgins are His. You need to rejoice in this fact, since the entire discourse of the Master of Reconciliation in St. Matthew 25 is directed to the members of His people!

"In a universe of love there can be no heaven which tolerates a chamber of horrors." -John Robinson-

The Father of Glory has a wonderful plan that begins in Him & ends in Him. The entire ta panta ends in Him, every last broken sinner, in every dimension of the heavens, the earth & the underworld! He loses NOTHING.

Let Jesus Christ state it again>>>>>

"Gather up the fragments... that NOTHING be lost/wasted"
Did you know that only those who are born again can understand the bible? And if not born again, all thy can do is twist scripture. So every post you make on this topic only proves my point.
 
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FineLinen

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Did you know that only those who are born again can understand the bible? And if not born again, all thy can do is twist scripture. So every post you make on this topic only proves my point.

Dear Dave: The new birth is but the beginning of a new Life that leads deeper & deeper into Him. You can be a disciple & not understand...

"How can these things be?" Still being uttered today!

Dear Dave: Do you know what the koine krino means yet?
 
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Dave L

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Dear Dave: The new birth is but the beginning of a new Life that leads deeper & deeper into Him. You can be a disciple & not understand...

"How can these things be?" Still being uttered today!

Dear Dave: Do you know what the koine krino means yet?
Twisted scripture is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Pneuma3

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I read someone say that Jesus did not pay for the Pharisees sins...so they believe in a thing called " limited atonement " . They can believe such a thing.
I cannot believe in a limited atonement.
There came a point in my walk when the clash between my head knowledge of doctrines versus my heart knowledge brought me to pray a dangerous prayer.
That prayer was something like--'Father in heaven, there is something in me that is blocking the flow of your love towards all others --please show me what it is that I might repent and flow with you. Lord Jesus--NO MATTER what the cost I want you to show me what it is!?'
On my 50th birthday after being a believer in eternal damnation all my life my Father graciously opened my eyes to His good purposes for ALL mankind...He gently showed me how I had believed a monstrous lie about Him and His nature...I wept much as I spent weeks discovering that His purpose to save all eventually through faith in Jesus Christ was all there in Scripture. I sat amazed at the blindness I was under previously. I saw that I had been living as a Christian trying hard to love God but deep in my psyche I hated and feared and loathed him....because his love was not unconditional....because he could not save all erring children he had made...because he had no power at all to change me....and at the same time he put all the responsibility upon me to be holy and good enough to escape the eternal damnation he had made for people like me and the Devil.
I wanted nothing to do with that god ever again! In the years since then, the loving Father of my heart has been untangling the web of lies that the false father had sewn in me. The false father's lies are what the visible church believes. I cannot tolerate it. It makes my heart so sad. Christians can have their hell god---I want nothing to do with it. I commit myself to the Loving heavenly Father who saved me and carries me all the way as a father carries his son.
I know my Father 's heart....He shall not fail to save all people, no matter how far they are into sin. The cross of Jesus was the atonement for the whole world..1 John 2:1 I am glad that my lesbian friends and homosexual friends shall all one day know the saving mercy and grace of Father.


Hi West, I think most of us who believe in the salvation of all went though a very similar experience. When our eyes became open to the truth these doctrines of devils became abhorrent in our eyes.



In 1Tim.4 Paul tell Tim to hold fast to the doctrine given him and to beware of the doctrine of devil. Paul then goes on to tell Tim exactly what doctrine we are to teach and Paul uses a very strong word in this regard, commanded.



Now here is the doctrine we are COMMANDED to teach.



For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



These things command and teach.



Thus any doctrine that teaches other then what we are commanded to teach are then nothing more then a doctrine of devils.



Jesus said that if He be lifted up He would draw ALL MEN unto him.

Now to me this has a twofold application.

Jesus was lifted up on the cross so He will draw ALL MEN unto himself, this is a done deal and all the lies of hellfire cannot change the FACT that He was lifted up.



The second fold view is what we are commanded to teach, or the doctrine surrounding what we teach.



Does our doctrine proclaim that Jesus was lifted up so will draw ALL MEN unto Himself? Or does ones doctrine only believe that Jesus was lifted up and deny that He will draw ALL MEN unto Himself?



Only one doctrine holds to the proclamation of Jesus Christ and that is the doctrine that ALL MEN/WORLD will be saved.



ALL other doctrines simply DENY the words of our Lord and saviour, proclaiming his words to be false and Him to be a failure to accomplish that which He set out to do.



Now Satan loves darkness and he does his best to hold people in the darkness of his doctrines, for he has many doctrines.



Satan does not want his doctrines to be exposed to the light so when his doctrine is challenged he will have the one who he has bound cut and run for he does not want those who he has bound to look to closely at his doctrine because if they do then the truth will set them free, and then they can proclaim in liberty and with boldness Jesus Christ was lifted up and so will fulfill his word that He will draw ALL MEN to himself and all that come to Jesus he will in no wise cast out.
 
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ClementofA

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“I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)
“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” (John 10:26)

Nothing there or anywhere else in Scripture says Jesus died - ONLY - for the sheep or the elect or some human beings. OTOH many verses reveal His death is for the world, all humans, the ungodly, sinners, etc.
 
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Der Alte

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<WO>God is the Father of all spirits. When He breathed Ruach into Adam, Adam's soul/body came alive. At death the spirit, which belongs to God returns to Him. The soul, which is not yet immortal awaits the resurrection spoken of in John 5. The soul of the wicked kings of Israel and Judah are said to be resting with their fathers in the grave.....along with the souls of the "good" kings. King Ahab rests with King David in the grave.....which the KJV has translated as HELL when it suits the propagandised mind of the translators.<end>
If you intend to convince others that their beliefs are incorrect and yours are correct, I can tell you that calling everyone who disagrees with you "propagandized" ain't the way
WO said:
<WO>
Furthermore, AFTER the cross, and AFTER the resurrection of Jesus..and AFTER Jesus' ascension Peter said that "David IS(present tense)both dead and buried and his tomb is with us to this day"---The man David(his soul and body)still rest in the grave(Sheol/Hades) to this day!! Oh you might say..."But I thought he was taken out of there by Jesus and taken up to Heaven??" Not according to Peter.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. KJV<end>
While Peter's words are inspired by God, what Peter said in Acts 2:29 may only be Peter describing what he is able to discern with his five senses not necessarily "Thus saith the Lord."
WO said:
<WO>NO ONE who has died is at this moment being tormented in any prison cells with burning flames tormenting them. <end>
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself, is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
WO said:
<WO>
The resurrection shall see all people raised up and God has promised that all people shall declare that in Him alone they have righteousness and strength. That is the declaration of someone who BELIEVES in Jesus our righteousness...not the declaration of someone being forced to say it under threat of torture.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isa 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Flee the false god of eternal torment!!<end>
Isa 45:23-25
(23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
(24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
(25) In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
Notice your proof text does not say “to him shall all men come.” It says “even to him shall men come.” Then it continues “all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.” It does not say “they shall be ashamed then they come to him.”
This verse is similar to Dan 12:2

Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:2 does not say “other shall awake to shame and everlasting shame then they will have everlasting life.
Does “every knee shall bow every tongue confess” mean all unrepentant sinners after they have been punished for some period will suddenly be filled with warm fuzzies for Gods and willingly get on their knees and call God, Lord? What about God’s enemies who are made a footstool for Jesus?

Isa 110:1
Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."Mat 22:44, Mar 12:36, Luk 20:43, Act 2:35

Jos 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
When enemy kings were captured they were forced to their knees and the conquerors would place their feet on the back of their necks.
 
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FineLinen

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Dear Dave: The new birth is but the beginning of a new Life that leads deeper & deeper into Him. You can be a disciple & not understand...

"How can these things be?" Still being uttered today!

Dear Dave: Do you know what the koine krino means yet?

Dear Dave: You must change your thinking while the Lord passes by! Do you think the Master of Reconciliation is
more interested in morsels of fish & bread that nothing be lost, but the polus for whom He made propitiation has less interest? The word for today= NO!

"He is [the] propitiation for our sins and NOT for our sins ONLY, but for the sins of the whole world."

Jesus Christ is the hilasmos of the holos!!!!
 
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