Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

[Hillsage]

So, what other commonly held doctrines of the church (or my toddler) are you guys standing against?

What difference does it really make? The devil has successfully divided the whole church system with division based on 'doctrinal' disagreement. Essentially everybody is somebody's HERETIC, including tongue talking you. Tell me Steven, what is the purpose of doctrine from God's perspective...and your opinion?

I know you personally reject the doctrine of the indwelling Holy Spirit. (if I understood you correctly)

You understood that much!!!! Or should I say that 'little'? And if that's what I believe and no one else does....ultimately determines WHAT from God's perspective on the day of judgment? Your answer kind of goes along with my first question. Is He going to say 'Son, you were radically saved and have a testimony like few here....BUT you believed that the Holy Spirit in Christians was the 'holy spirit of Christ' and not MY Holy Spirit living in your sinful flesh "tent". "FOR BELIEVING THAT YOU HERETIC, GO TO HELL, DO NOT PASS GO, GO STRAIGHT TO HELL. DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT STUPID LIE YOU BELIEVED LED CHILDREN TO FORSAKE FOLLOWING ME, TO FOLLOW THE DEVIL????" It sounds to me like you think that is what God is going to say. Back that up opinion up with scripture and not the indoctrination of a church that is so splintered 'doctrinally' that claiming to be ORTHODOX is really the true "TRANSLATION CLUB" you should be fearful of IMO.

What is the scope of doctrines under attack by this periphery translation club?

Your 'true' spiritual perception has sadly come to the surface in this thread IMO. For one thing, you have this alliance with a couple of 'posters' who honestly don't even rate being responded to IMO. And it is obvious a couple others, who are also the target of childish railings and judgments, have apparently felt the same as me. Have we conspired behind the scenes to not respond to these spiritual giants who have caught us with our doctrinal pants down? NAY. You and I have more of a PM history than I have with Fine Linen, Clement, Pneuma3. I just checked, Clement and I have a total of 27 PM's since 2016. And I found NONE to/from Fine Linen or Pneuma3. If I'm in error then I ask them to tell me where I missed it. So your conspiracy theories are fueled by two guys with less posts between them here than YOU and I have PM's. WHAT!!! Oh yes, the true conspiracy is you and I had 45 PM's since September 2018.

The Trinity? Vicarious Atonement? The Deity of Christ? How deep does the rabbit hole go? Did you find Alice? lol --- Send me a PM if you don't want to post your reply here. Thnx

I'd be happy to talk about any of these...'whenever' or 'where ever' one at a time. I have never started a thread in the 9 years I've been here and don't feel led to do so now. I honestly don't know what "My CO conspirators" here even believe on those issues either, Steven. But I have learned this concerning both of them. They are not here like those here who "Have a ZEAL for God but it is not enlightened" I just know that they have a confidence in who their savior is that is equal to mine. We don't have to agree on every LITMUS of the ORTHODOX hierarchy to 'know' that God is our Father and we are brothers. I believe I could enter in to any of the apparent 'HEAVEN or HELL' importance doctrines on your list above, and never have the posted idiocy I've seen here. But this 'thread' is not on topic for any of those topics you list. So the ball is in your court. Start a thread or PM me. But only pick one at a time. IF you've learned nothing else here about me, you ought to know that 'I know' in what I have believed to be true. And I align with God and God alone if I truly believe I'm right and EVERYONE else is wrong. I trust Him more than all the 'Ethernet virtual un-reality Christians' represented in this Forum's base.

EDIT; is the BLUE added to paragraph one.

 

[Saint Steven]

What difference does it really make? The devil has successfully divided the whole church system with division based on 'doctrinal' disagreement. Essentially everybody is somebodies HERETIC. Tell me Steven, what is the purpose of doctrine from God's perspective...and your opinion?


You understood that much!!!! Or should I say that 'little'? And if that's what I believe and no one else does....ultimately determines WHAT from God's perspective on the day of judgment? Your answer kind of goes along with my first question. Is He going to say 'Son, you were radically saved and have a testimony like few here....BUT you believed that the Holy Spirit in Christians was the 'holy spirit of Christ' and not MY Holy Spirit living in your sinful flesh "tent". "FOR BELIEVING THAT YOU HERETIC, GO TO HELL, DO NOT PASS GO, GO STRAIGHT TO HELL. DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT STUPID LIE YOU BELIEVED LED CHILDREN TO FORSAKE FOLLOWING ME, TO FOLLOW THE DEVIL????" It sounds to me like you think that is what God is going to say. Back that up opinion up with scripture and not the indoctrination of a church that is so splintered 'doctrinally' that claiming to be ORTHODOX is really the true "TRANSLATION CLUB" you should be fearful of IMO.


Your 'true' spiritual perception has sadly come to the surface in this thread IMO. For one thing, you have this alliance with a couple of 'posters' who honestly don't even rate being responded to IMO. And it is obvious a couple others, who are also the target of childish railings and judgments, have apparently felt the same as me. Have we conspired behind the scenes to not respond to these spiritual giants who have caught us with our doctrinal pants down? NAY. You and I have more of a PM history than I have with Fine Linen, Clement, Pneuma3. I just checked, Clement and I have a total of 27 PM's since 2016. And I found NONE to/from Fine Linen or Pneuma3. If I'm in error then I ask them to tell me where I missed it. So your conspiracy theories are fueled by two guys with less posts between them here than YOU and I have PM's. WHAT!!! Oh yes, the true conspiracy is you and I had 45 PM's since September 2018.


I'd be happy to talk about any of these...'whenever' or 'where ever' one at a time. I have never started a thread in the 9 years I've been here and don't feel led to do so now. I honestly don't know what "My CO conspirators" here even believe on those issues either, Steven. But I have learned this concerning both of them. They are not here like those here who "Have a ZEAL for God but it is not enlightened" I just know that they have a confidence in who their savior is that is equal to mine. We don't have to agree on every LITMUS of the ORTHODOX hierarchy to 'know' that God is our Father and we are brothers. I believe I could enter in to any of the apparent 'HEAVEN or HELL' importance doctrines on your list above, and never have the posted idiocy I've seen here. But this 'thread' is not on topic for any of those topics you list. So the ball is in your court. Start a thread or PM me. But only pick one at a time. IF you've learned nothing else here about me, you ought to know that 'I know' in what I have believed to be true. And I align with God and God alone if I truly believe I'm right and EVERYONE else is wrong. I trust Him more than all the 'Ethernet virtual un-reality Christians' represented in this Forum's base.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I meant to be firm in my post, but not disrespectful. If you took it that way, please accept my sincere apology. Thanks.

And no, I don't see this as a salvation issue. What you believe about the nature of hell is not a huge deal ultimately. IMHO

What difference does it make?
I want to know where this bus is going. For lack of a better term, I have labeled you guys the periphery translation club. I know, I know... nobody likes to be labeled, and that wasn't my aim, just trying to categorize the approach I am seeing here. Hopefully you saw that I came to the defense of the "club" in the last page or so. The others are ready to burn you heretics at the stake. I had to step in to put in a good word for you guys. Even though I have been treated poorly by at least one of you. (on that side of the argument) But, to get to the point, I wasn't sure if this was part of a larger set of "findings" or not. It seems not, at least from your perspective. If I observe a trend later on, I'll have to inform you of what I am observing. You can tell me if you have buy-in or not. Fair enough?

In the interest of keeping this post short, I probably won't be able to answer all your questions. I know you find that irritating, but you don't like long posts any more than I do. Let me know if there is more you want me to address. Thanks.

What is doctrine for?
Since the Bible is not a step-by-step guide to what we believe, doctrine serves to organize and codify our beliefs into a more manageable form. It also serves to make decisions about beliefs that might not be clear otherwise. That would be my off-the-cuff definition.

The Didache (the teachings of the twelve apostles) is the oldest Christian text I can think of that was created to serve this end. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the subject. But I won't push it.

In reference to orthodoxy, I have never attended a church in which I was 100 percent in agreement with the doctrine. At least since I have come of age. (long ago) My Pastor still preaches stuff I thought I had straightened him out on. lol

 

[Hillsage]

Thanks. I appreciate your response and the general support we share here.

Heresy seems strong. Part of me hopes that they are correct. (probably not though) They did have some compelling scriptural answers, though admittedly weak. (I'm mildly conflicted on this) Hopefully you would agree with me that a forever burning hell is something we could do without. But wishful thinking will not make it go away. Reality is reality. We can't nix hell based on a general dislike of the idea.

And I wonder how the judgment will work. Especially for those who have frankly never even heard of Christ or those who have been misled by bad leaders.

HERESY only sounds wrong because most of the church doesn't even know the definition of HERESY. I've had to 'enlighten' former pastors of mine. Look up the Greek word for heresy/haresis and read the definition;

0139 hairesis: (properly) a choice, i.e. (specifically) a party or (abstractly) disunion

Then do a search for every 9 times hairesis is in scripture, and guess what you'll find?

First off, in the KJV the word heresy is only in there ONE time and it's Paul claiming to be one.

ACT 24:14 But this I/PAUL confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Now it's only in the KJV NT 8 more times. 5 times it is translated as "sect" when referring to......O-M-Goodness it's Paul again. Twice damned in one chapter, this Nazarene HERETIC.

ACT 24:5 For we have found this man/PAUL a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect/heresis of the Nazarenes:

Well for GOD'S sake lets move on to a REAL heretic 2 chapters later. Oh wait, this can not be.....IT'S PAUL!!!! Three strikes you and 'to HELL with you' PAUL, you 'self confessed' heretic.

ACT 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect/heresis of our religion I/PAUL lived a Pharisee.

So, brother, as you can see, when some spiritual Nimrod calls me a heretic....I just laugh...literally. The one in Corinthians will actually tell you why the church NEEDS US HERETICS. But study to show yourself approved Steven and read the last four to see what the NOMINAL church of today doesn't know about HERESY and HERETICS. I do sincerely appreciate your "Heresy seem strong" comment, in our defense though. That reveals a heart action I appreciate in you.

 

[ClementofA]

The Trinity? Vicarious Atonement? The Deity of Christ?

Only Christians are permitted to post on this forum. That means they must believe this:


"The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)"

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[ClementofA]

If there’s no hell then we can do whatever we want. We can run around fornicating and murdering people and get off scot free.....

Who said there is no hell?

There is "hell" but it's not endless, pointless, hopeless, sadism.

If Love Omnipotent doesn't save all is it because He is unable or because He doesn't want to?

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[Solomon Smith]

There is "hell" but it's not endless, pointless, hopeless, sadism.

Wait I thought you said Jesus saves everyone?

 

[Hillsage]

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I meant to be firm in my post, but not disrespectful. If you took it that way, please accept my sincere apology. Thanks.

More 'disappointed' than anything. No 'offense' was taken but apology speaks volumes bro.

And no, I don't see this as a salvation issue. What you believe about the nature of hell is not a huge deal ultimately. IMHO

What difference does it make?
I want to know where this bus is going. For lack of a better term, I have labeled you guys the periphery translation club. I know, I know... nobody likes to be labeled, and that wasn't my aim, just trying to categorize the approach I am seeing here. Hopefully you saw that I came to the defense of the "club" in the last page or so.

I have noticed....big time, and that was my concern. We have a 'good' past that I have appreciated. Yes it was based upon our 'agreed upon club' of being CRAIZIMATIC HERTETICS in the presence of people who are so FundaMENTAL that they don't suffer from a religious position as much as a mental condition....IMO, IMO, IMHO In My HUMBLE Opinion.

The others are ready to burn you heretics at the stake. I had to step in to put in a good word for you guys. Even though I have been treated poorly by at least one of you. (on that side of the argument)

Like I said, not worried in the least about them. Other than their qualifications to even be in the CONTROVERSIAL Forum....HELLLLLO!!! So if they can't take the CONTROVERSIAL HEAT they can just go to.. ... ...another forum.

But, to get to the point, I wasn't sure if this was part of a larger set of "findings" or not. It seems not, at least from your perspective. If I observe a trend later on, I'll have to inform you of what I am observing. You can tell me if you have buy-in or not. Fair enough?

What is doctrine for?
Since the Bible is not a step-by-step guide to what we believe, doctrine serves to organize and codify our beliefs into a more manageable form. It also serves to make decisions about beliefs that might not be clear otherwise. That would be my off-the-cuff definition.

1322 didache; instruction (the act or the matter)

I believe doctrine/didache, and actually its first APPLIED definition, which is the ACT, and not the written MATTER, means it is supposed to affect your WALK primarily and your TALK secondarily. That's why you've heard my maxim (I'm pretty sure) that; 'I'd rather WALK it right and TALK it wrong, than TALK it right but WALK it wrong.' Why do I say that? Because on the day of judgment He is not going to judge me for my stinking thinking, He is going to judge me for how much I manifested HIS CHARACTER....or as it says in Genesis, how much I pursued "AFTER HIS LIKENESS".

In reference to orthodoxy, I have never attended a church in which I was 100 percent in agreement with the doctrine. At least since I have come of age. (long ago) My Pastor still preaches stuff I thought I had straightened him out on. lol

See, you're already sounding like more of a HERETIC, to me. The more you know, the fewer churches you can ever be in without disagreement.

Momma said I'm done, so I'm POSTING and leaving early today. Momma is my wife and office manager.

 

[ClementofA]

Wait I thought you said Jesus saves everyone?

He shall. Even those who go to the various "hells" (Hades, Tartarus, the lake of fire).

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[Saint Steven]

HERESY only sounds wrong because most of the church doesn't even know the definition of HERESY. I've had to 'enlighten' former pastors of mine. Look up the Greek word for heresy/haresis and read the definition;

0139 hairesis: (properly) a choice, i.e. (specifically) a party or (abstractly) disunion

Then do a search for every 9 times hairesis is in scripture, and guess what you'll find?

First off, in the KJV the word heresy is only in there ONE time and it's Paul claiming to be one.

ACT 24:14 But this I/PAUL confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Now it's only in the KJV NT 8 more times. 5 times it is translated as "sect" when referring to......O-M-Goodness it's Paul again. Twice damned in one chapter, this Nazarene HERETIC.

ACT 24:5 For we have found this man/PAUL a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect/heresis of the Nazarenes:

Well for GOD'S sake lets move on to a REAL heretic 2 chapters later. Oh wait, this can not be.....IT'S PAUL!!!! Three strikes you and 'to HELL with you' PAUL, you 'self confessed' heretic.

ACT 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect/heresis of our religion I/PAUL lived a Pharisee.

So, brother, as you can see, when some spiritual Nimrod calls me a heretic....I just laugh...literally. The one in Corinthians will actually tell you why the church NEEDS US HERETICS. But study to show yourself approved Steven and read the last four to see what the NOMINAL church of today doesn't know about HERESY and HERETICS. I do sincerely appreciate your "Heresy seem strong" comment, in our defense though. That reveals a heart action I appreciate in you.

Thanks.
Let's assume most are using these terms according to their common definitions today. If some calls me a heretic.. well, I suppose I would laugh to. Even though their intent is bad.

 

[Saint Steven]

Only Christians are permitted to post on this forum. That means they must believe this:


"The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)"

Terms of Service and Christian Forum Rules | Christian Forums

Are you saying you believe that, or this another slap at us?

 

[Hillsage]

Thanks.
Let's assume most are using these terms according to their common definitions today. If some calls me a heretic.. well, I suppose I would laugh to. Even though their intent is bad.

Do you laugh when they say your spirit's prayer language is babble or gibberish? Might be a clue as to how much it might bother you to be called a heretic. I know I sometimes feel just like Jesus must have felt, and then I tell the 'modern' pharisees of the 'orthodoxy' of today just what kind of a viper they hiss like. At other times, some just make such open fools of themselves IMO, that it just isn't worth my time to say anything. Occasionally I can even muster up a prayer 'for them'.

 

[Saint Steven]

Do you laugh when they say your spirit's prayer language is babble or gibberish? Might be a clue as to how much it might bother you to be called a heretic. I know I sometimes feel just like Jesus must have felt, and then I tell the 'modern' pharisees of the 'orthodoxy' of today just what kind of a viper they hiss like. At other times, some just make such open fools of themselves IMO, that it just isn't worth my time to say anything. Occasionally I can even muster up a prayer 'for them'.

Admittedly, calling tongues gibberish does frost my barn. (so to speak) Grrr…. !!!

 

[Solomon Smith]

He shall. Even those who go to the various "hells" (Hades, Tartarus, the lake of fire).

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Do you have any scriptural proof of this? In Luke 16 the Rich Man was told that he couldn’t cross over from hell to heaven.

 

[Hillsage]

Are you saying you believe that, or this another slap at us?

I can't answer for Clement on what you've sent. I don't know the thread context of where this came from. It just looks like it may even be CF's requirement. Is it the Nicene Creed or is it the Apostle's Creed, which is the Forum litmus? I honestly don't remember.

EDIT; just read it again, yep it says at the bottom CF Litmus. So I need context to comment.

 

[Saint Steven]

I can't answer for Clement on what you've sent. I don't know the thread context of where this came from. It just looks like it may even be CF's requirement. Is it the Nicene Creed or is it the Apostle's Creed, which is the Forum litmus? I honestly don't remember.

The Nicene Creed.
It seems the "descended into hell" part is removed. (that figures)
But maybe that is only in the Apostle's Creed. ???

 

[ClementofA]

Are you saying you believe that

Everyone posting on this forum (named "Controversial Christian Theology"), which is for Christians only, is supposed to believe that. So, yes, of course, i believe it.

 

[ClementofA]

Do you have any scriptural proof of this?

How do you define "scriptural proof"? Do any of these verses come to mind:

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

In Luke 16 the Rich Man was told that he couldn’t cross over from hell to heaven.

At that moment he couldn't cross over. So? The word "heaven" is not mentioned in that story. Neither is there any "hell". But there is Hades. Everyone gets out of Hades in Revelation 20:11-15. So it's only a temporary holding jail. Not final destiny.

 

[Saint Steven]

…
At that moment he couldn't cross over. So? The word "heaven" is not mentioned in that story. Neither is there any "hell". But there is Hades. Everyone gets out of Hades in Revelation 20:11-15. So it's only a temporary holding jail. Not final destiny.

What you are saying is true, what you are inferring has no solid proof.

While it is true that the Rich man was in Hades and it was temporary, the chasm is representative of a permanent spiritual condition. Those who believe have crossed over from death to life. There is no way for the unbeliever to cross over from death to life. The great chasm is "fixed". Set in place so that even those who "want" to cross over cannot.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Luke 16:26
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

 

[ClementofA]

While it is true that the Rich man was in Hades and it was temporary, the chasm is representative of a permanent spiritual condition.

Nothing in Luke 16 speaks of an eternal, unchangeable, endless or "permanent spiritual condition".

Those who believe have crossed over from death to life. There is no way for the unbeliever to cross over from death to life.

Your 2nd remark contradicts your 1st statement. If your 2nd remark is true, then no one can be saved & all are lost for eternity, you included.

The great chasm is "fixed". Set in place so that even those who "want" to cross over cannot.

Luke 16:26
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

The story applies that chasm to Hades & Lazarus' location, while people are there, not to after they get out of Hades. Neither does the story say the chasm is eternal or can never be destroyed or removed. It only applies as a barrier between Hades & Lazarus' location, not to other realms outside of those, such as the lake of fire & the new Jerusalem. In fact, we are told that the gates into the holy city are always open & never shut.

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

Tom Talbott said:

"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognized as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

 

[Saint Steven]

Nothing in Luke 16 speaks of an eternal, unchangeable, endless or "permanent spiritual condition".



Your 2nd remark contradicts your 1st statement. If your 2nd remark is true, then no one can be saved & all are lost for eternity, you included.



The story applies that chasm to Hades & Lazarus' location, while people are there, not to after they get out of Hades. Neither does the story say the chasm is eternal or can never be destroyed or removed. It only applies as a barrier between Hades & Lazarus' location, not to other realms outside of those, such as the lake of fire & the new Jerusalem. In fact, we are told that the gates into the holy city are always open & never shut.

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

Tom Talbott said:

"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognized as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

The "parable" doesn't say there are no cows or chickens in Hades. Should we assume that too? Let's hear the view from the Rich man about his situation.

Luke 16:27-28
“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’