Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

[YeshuaFan]

The whole world will not be saved. Salvation is only for those who believe.

Those who reject Jesus to save them are already under the condemnation of God!

 

[Sam81]

you are in the controversial section of this forum, you are free to leave this section if you do not like what you hear.

Oh...well...

It's still venemous garbage.

 

[Pneuma3]

The whole world will not be saved. Salvation is only for those who believe.

Well I guess that leaves you out then as you do not believe what we are commanded to teach which is Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

 

[Pneuma3]

Oh...well...

It's still venemous garbage.

well let it be known sam here believes what Paul commanded us to teach is venomous garbage.
I think I will believe Paul, you go ahead and believe your teachers even though they also dissuasive Paul.
After all you believe Paul to be antichrist as he is the one who commands us to teach Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.1tim4:10

 

[Solomon Smith]

Well I guess that leaves you out then as you do not believe what we are commanded to teach which is Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

Thanks for the insult but I’m quite confident that I am one of God’s elect as I do believe in the shed blood of my savior Jesus Christ.

Read the following passage. Don’t you feel like you’re missing something?

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Der Alte]

Wouldn’t a simple definition from a Greek lexicon have been sufficient?

That was the complete definition of of the Greek word "polus", i.e. "many" from one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available. And I posted the complete definition because the person I was responding to will not accept anything less. If he even accepts that because it disproves his UR interpretation of Romans 5:19 where he interprets the Greek word "polus"/many as all.

 

[Solomon Smith]

That was the complete definition of of the Greek word "polus", i.e. "many" from one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available. And I posted the complete definition because the person I was responding to will not accept anything less. If he even accepts that because it disproves his UR interpretation of Romans 5:19 where he interprets the Greek word "polus"/many as all.

I think a good answer would have been: “the word many means many.”

 

[Hillsage]

Again, you are reasoning in earthly terms about what can and cannot be happening in the spiritual realm. As we saw in Isaiah, when a hot coal was put to his lips with no indication of a burn, that things probably operate differently there. A different or expanded set of physics, if you will. A "world" (for lack of a better term) not constrained by time or material.

Since you aren't answering my questions I'll do the same.

I think the very case you make concerning Isaiah and the fact that there was "no indication of a burn" speaks volumes as to what God wants you to see. It also aligns with the nature of the God I believe in and serve. It's the nature of a God who has commanded believers to always forgive. So I hope you see the dichotomy of an ETERNAL HELL which says HE is never going to forgive most!!! So, yes this may look like earthly reasoning in your eyes, but it's spiritual reasoning to my eyes. My God view does not hold me to a higher standard of forgiveness than God Himself will EVER live up to. I believe Jesus died for the forgiveness of EVERYBODY'S sins, or He didn't. So for me it's simply a matter of when His plan for ALL others to experience and be "predestined" to be "drawn", "called", and "ordained to believe". For ALL, it will be 'then' that they "hear his voice" for the first time, to receive "the gift of faith" to believe. Whether in this life/age or the "ages to come" is His to determine. All of this is from His initiating, not ours. So for me it just a question of WHEN their time comes. Back to your Isaiah revelation of FIRE that doesn't Burn...even though you can be a tortured soul as was Isaiah when he realized he was "a man with unclean lips". Your observation of God's fire does give you reason to seek a truth you've never seen.

And if you still sin AT ALL then you too are going to endure the same 1Cor 3:15 'judgment of 'saving fire' for perfection, as will all Christians that fought the complete sanctification of their soul on this side of glory. A fire whose purpose is to purge and purify with it's burning. That's why there is a "baptism of the Holy Spirit AND FIRE" for us. That's why "every man shall be salted with FIRE". Were the disciples jumping around trying to put out the FIRE on each other's heads? And the purpose of His fire for us here and now is no different than the purpose of His fire in the hereafter. It is the consuming FIRE which He is, that is going "to make ALL things new". He will consume ALL that is still in you or me and He will do so for all His beloved. And NO His FIRE will not burn like the hot sermons of 'over pastor-ization' which has burned the sincere milk of the gospel. In our sides definition of GOSPEL anyway.

Perhaps this struggle to understand these things that we are engaged in here has something to do with the utter lack of the proper words to explain the unexplainable. At term that translates as eternal from an ancient term "ages to ages" may have been the best they could do with it.

I disagree, in my studies I'm very comfortable believing that aion is a noun meaning 'an age'. Indeed it's the very word from which we get the word EON out of, which is a period of time in eternity. And the adjective form of the noun aion is aionios. And an adjective can't have a definition that is greater than the noun it is derived from. The adjective form of any noun is merely descriptive of what is taking place in the limits of that noun. For example; An hour (noun) is 60 minutes long. 6 consecutive hourly (adj.) meetings don't mean an hour is also defined as 360 minutes. Those are simply the laws of grammar. And those laws were broken long ago after UR was practiced for 400 years. Another point which I've presented and NO ONE HERE HAS EVER REFUTED. So again, it's your turn to disprove my quote of;
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, which I presented to you WAAAAAAY back in post 873 now. But 'that' too is not your interest. Defending where you are is what's driving your heart here, not a quest for the Spirit to lead and guide you into a truth you have never known.

Here's the flip side of this. Which you guys may not have even considered. The same word used to define "eternal" death is also used to define "eternal" life. Would you be so quick to diminish our eternal life in Christ with your same arguments? Here are the scriptures in question. The exact same NT Greek word is used. Are you not forced to apply the same definition to the same word?

Steven, believe me when I say this. There is nothing you can present that I, in my 40 years of studying and 30 years of believing this view of God and his plan, that I "may not have even considered." For 10 years I honestly just hoped it was true that God could be better than some eternal Hitler torturing people in some eternal DYING camp, as I had been taught to believe. A camp you can't even call as merciful as a death camp, that's for sure. Which reminds me you are still avoiding my direct questions AGAIN. WHERE IS THE VERSE ON ETERNAL 'PUNISHING' I asked you to find. Did you even look yet? I really want you to know that these are the 'heart' indicators I'm looking for, but not feeling bro. This is too time consuming for me, as evident by how it took all day at the office just on this one post.

I actually wrote much more and then deleted to try to make this 'not overwhelming' amounts to read.

 

[Saint Steven]

Since you aren't answering my questions I'll do the same.

I think the very case you make concerning Isaiah and the fact that there was "no indication of a burn" speaks volumes as to what God wants you to see. It also aligns with the nature of the God I believe in and serve. It's the nature of a God who has commanded believers to always forgive. So I hope you see the dichotomy of an ETERNAL HELL which says HE is never going to forgive most!!! So, yes this may look like earthly reasoning in your eyes, but it's spiritual reasoning to my eyes. My God view does not hold me to a higher standard of forgiveness than God Himself will EVER live up to. I believe Jesus died for the forgiveness of EVERYBODY'S sins, or He didn't. So for me it's simply a matter of when His plan for ALL others to experience and be "predestined" to be "drawn", "called", and "ordained to believe". For ALL, it will be 'then' that they "hear his voice" for the first time, to receive "the gift of faith" to believe. Whether in this life/age or the "ages to come" is His to determine. All of this is from His initiating, not ours. So for me it just a question of WHEN their time comes. Back to your Isaiah revelation of FIRE that doesn't Burn...even though you can be a tortured soul as was Isaiah when he realized he was "a man with unclean lips". Your observation of God's fire does give you reason to seek a truth you've never seen.

And if you still sin AT ALL then you too are going to endure the same 1Cor 3:15 'judgment of 'saving fire' for perfection, as will all Christians that fought the complete sanctification of their soul on this side of glory. A fire whose purpose is to purge and purify with it's burning. That's why there is a "baptism of the Holy Spirit AND FIRE" for us. That's why "every man shall be salted with FIRE". Were the disciples jumping around trying to put out the FIRE on each other's heads? And the purpose of His fire for us here and now is no different than the purpose of His fire in the hereafter. It is the consuming FIRE which He is, that is going "to make ALL things new". He will consume ALL that is still in you or me and He will do so for all His beloved. And NO His FIRE will not burn like the hot sermons of 'over pastor-ization' which has burned the sincere milk of the gospel. In our sides definition of GOSPEL anyway.


I disagree, in my studies I'm very comfortable believing that aion is a noun meaning 'an age'. Indeed it's the very word from which we get the word EON out of, which is a period of time in eternity. And the adjective form of the noun aion is aionios. And an adjective can't have a definition that is greater than the noun it is derived from. The adjective form of any noun is merely descriptive of what is taking place in the limits of that noun. For example; An hour (noun) is 60 minutes long. 6 consecutive hourly (adj.) meetings don't mean an hour is also defined as 360 minutes. Those are simply the laws of grammar. And those laws were broken long ago after UR was practiced for 400 years. Another point which I've presented and NO ONE HERE HAS EVER REFUTED. So again, it's your turn to disprove my quote of;
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, which I presented to you WAAAAAAY back in post 873 now. But 'that' too is not your interest. Defending where you are is what's driving your heart here, not a quest for the Spirit to lead and guide you into a truth you have never known.


Steven, believe me when I say this. There is nothing you can present that I, in my 40 years of studying and 30 years of believing this view of God and his plan, that I "may not have even considered." For 10 years I honestly just hoped it was true that God could be better than some eternal Hitler torturing people in some eternal DYING camp, as I had been taught to believe. A camp you can't even call as merciful as a death camp, that's for sure. Which reminds me you are still avoiding my direct questions AGAIN. WHERE IS THE VERSE ON ETERNAL 'PUNISHING' I asked you to find. Did you even look yet? I really want you to know that these are the 'heart' indicators I'm looking for, but not feeling bro. This is too time consuming for me, as evident by how it took all day at the office just on this one post.

I actually wrote much more and then deleted to try to make this 'not overwhelming' amounts to read.

Thanks for the detailed (and edited) response. I appreciate it.

 

[Hillsage]

Thanks for the detailed (and edited) response. I appreciate it.

Oh my, I just now realized that everything I thought I’d deleted, I didn’t. Every thing past the smiley face was not supposed to be there. You know I hate long posts. I was trying to get out of the office and the edit part was below the screen when I hit send and walked out. Thanks for your much shorter reply. I think it’s a good place for us to leave things.

 

[ClementofA]

Historically, we have always known (believed) that hell is sternal.

We? Who is that? You & your toddler?

Epistle of Barnabas' (70-135 AD)
15:7-8 Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world.

Clement of Rome (d. 99 AD)
1 Clem 7:4 Let us fix our eyes on the blood of Christ and understand how precious it is unto His Father, because being shed for our salvation it won for the whole world the grace of repentance.
1 Clem 19:2b and let us look steadfastly unto the Father and Maker of the whole world, and cleave unto His splendid and excellent gifts of peace and benefits.
1 Clem 19:3 Let us behold Him in our mind, and let us look with the eyes of our soul unto His long-suffering will. Let us note how free from anger He is towards all His creatures.
1 Clem 27:2 He that commanded not to lie, much more shall He Himself not lie: for nothing is impossible with God save to lie.
1 Clem 29:3 And in another place He saith, Behold, the Lord taketh for Himself a nation out of the midst of the nations, as a man taketh the first fruits of his threshing floor; and the holy of holies shall come forth from that nation.
1 Clem 36:4 but of His Son the Master said thus, Thou art My Son, I this day have begotten thee. Ask of Me, and I will give Thee the Gentiles for Thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Thy possession.
1 Clem 52:1 The Master, brethren, hath need of nothing at all. He desireth not anything of any man, save to confess unto Him.
1 Clem 53:4 And Moses said; Nay, not so, Lord Forgive this people their sin, or blot me also out of the book of the living.
1 Clem 53:5 O mighty love! O unsurpassable perfection! The servant is bold with his Master; he asketh forgiveness for the multitude, or he demandeth that himself also be blotted out with them.
1 Clem 54:1 Who therefore is noble among you? Who is compassionate? Who is fulfilled with love?
1 Clem 56:1 Therefore let us also make intercession for them that are in any transgression, that forbearance and humility may be given them, to the end that they may yield not unto us, but unto the will of God. For so shall the compassionate remembrance of them with God and the saints be fruitful unto them, and perfect.
1 Clem 59:4 We beseech Thee, Lord and Master, to be our help and succor. Save those among us who are in tribulation; have mercy on the lowly; lift up the fallen; show Thyself unto the needy; heal the ungodly; convert the wanderers of Thy people; feed the hungry; release our prisoners; raise up the weak; comfort the fainthearted. Let all the Gentiles know that Thou art the God alone, and Jesus Christ is Thy Son, and we are Thy people and the sheep of Thy pasture.

Sibylline Oracles (80-195 AD)
And God, immortal and omnipotent, will grant another gift to these pious
persons: when they will ask him, he will grant them to save the human beings
from the fierce fire, and from the otherworldly [αἰώνιος] gnashing of teeth, and
will do so after pulling them out of the unquenchable flame and removing
them [ἀπὸ φλογὸς ἀκαμάτοιο ἄλοσ’ ἀποστήσας], destining them, for the sake
of his own elect, to the other life, that of the world to come, for immortals
[ζωὴν ἑτέραν καὶ αἰώνιον ἀθανάτοισιν], in the Elysian Fields, where there are the
long waves of the Acherusian Lake, imperishable, which has a deep bed.
(2,330–338)

Apocalypse of Peter (c. 100-150 AD)
Then I will grant to my called and elect ones whomsoever they request from me, out of the punishment. And I will give them [i.e. those for whom the elect pray] a fine baptism in salvation from the Acherousian Lake (which is, they say, in the Elysian field), a portion of righteousness with my holy ones (ApPet 14:1, translating the text as corrected by M. R. James and confirmed by SibOr 2:330-338).

Bardaisan of Edessa (154–222 AD)

"But whenever God likes, everything can be, with no obstacle at all. In fact,
there is nothing that can impede that great and holy will. For, even those
who are convinced to resist God, do not resist by their force, but they are
in evil and error, and this can be only for a short time, because God is kind
and gentle, and allows all natures to remain in the state in which they are,
and to govern themselves by their own will, but at the same time they are
conditioned by the things that are done and the plans that have been conceived
[sc. by God] in order to help them. For this order and this government that have
been given [sc. by God], and the association of one with another, damps the
natures’ force, so that they cannot be either completely harmful or completely
harmed, as they were harmful and harmed before the creation of the world.
And there will come a time when even this capacity for harm that remains in
them will be brought to an end by the instruction that will obtain in a different
arrangement of things: and, once that new world will be constituted, all evil
movements will cease, all rebellions will come to an end, and the fools will be
persuaded, and the lacks will be filled, and there will be safety and peace, as a
gift of the Lord of all natures." (Laws of Countries, 608–611 Nau)

Clement of Alexandria (150-215) “And not only for our sins,'-that is for those of the faithful,-is the Lord the propitiator, does he say, 'but also for the whole world.' He, indeed, saves all; but some He saves, converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily He saves with dignity of honour; so 'that every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;' that is, angels, men, and souls that before His advent have departed from this temporal life." (Fragments, 1:3, c. 2, v. 2)

Origen (c. 184 - c. 253) "So then, when the end has been restored to the beginning, and the termination of things compared with their commencement, that condition of things will be re-established in which rational nature was placed, when it had no need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; so that when all feeling of wickedness has been removed, and the individual has been purified and cleansed, He who alone is the one good God becomes to him 'all,' and that not in the case of a few individuals, or of a considerable number, but He Himself is 'all in all.' And when death shall no longer anywhere exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then verily God will be 'all in all'" — De Prinicipiis 3.6.3

Didymus the Blind of Alexandria (310/13 ca.–395/8 AD)
This is said about rational creatures [τῶν λογικῶν]. Since, among all of them, there are also some who have become wicked, know how these will have a restoration [κατάστασιν] once they have arrived in the hands of the Son, obviously after rejecting the evilness [κακίαν] that they had, and assuming virtue [ἀρετήν]. For one should not pay attention to those who propound sophisms, claiming that only those rational beings who have sanctity [ἁγιότητα] are called. [In Comm. in Io., fr. 2]

It is impossible that wood, grass, and straw disappear in such a way as not to exist any more, but sinners will disappear insofar as they are grass and so on. Indeed, this fire of the corrective punishment is not active against the substance, but against habits and qualities [sc. bad habits and qualities]. For this fire consumes, not creatures, but certain conditions and certain habits. [Comm. in Ps. 20–21 col. 21,15]

“Gregory of Nyssa (A.D. 330-394)
A certain deception was indeed practised upon the Evil one, by concealing the Divine nature within the human; but for the latter, as himself a deceiver, it was only a just recompense that he should be deceived himself: the great adversary must himself at last find that what has been done is just and salutary, when he also shall experience the benefit of the Incarnation. He, as well as humanity, will be purged.” (The Great Catechism, 26, newadvent.org/fathers/2908.htm)”


"the originator of evil himself will be healed” (Catechetical Orations 26. The Catechetical Oration of Gregory of Nyssa. Edited by James H. Srawley. Cambridge, 1903, p. 101).

‘For it is evident that God will, in truth, be ‘in all’ then when there shall be no evil seen in anything. … When every created being is at harmony with itself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body, then shall the body of Christ be subject to the Father. … Now the body of Christ, as I have said often before, is the whole of humanity’ (Orat. in I Cor. xv.28).

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
Universalism...First 500 Years

 

[ClementofA]

Here's the flip side of this. Which you guys may not have even considered. The same word used to define "eternal" death is also used to define "eternal" life. Would you be so quick to diminish our eternal life in Christ with your same arguments? Here are the scriptures in question. The exact same NT Greek word is used. Are you not forced to apply the same definition to the same word?

John 12:50
I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

2. The righteous go into eternal life. The cursed into everlasting punishment. The word for everlasting and eternal is the same here - so unless there is some specific construction leading us to believe that the comparison here is not direct, one would have to give the eternal life of the righteous the same weight as the everlasting punishment due the wicked. A similar argument is made by UR proponents about "all" in I Corinthians 15:22 (and may have been made in this thread - my apologies, I haven't read it in its entirety). So if the eternal life of the believer is never to cease, why should we think the punishment due the wicked will? And if the life of the believer is merely age-lasting, does that mean that at some point in the future, that salvation can be expended and come to an end?

Regarding your questions, nikolai, there are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support these two perspectives.

I read the book Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment by Robert Peterson. He makes a solid argument. Would recommend it. He includes this quote from Augustine's City of God,

what a fond fancy is it to suppose that eternal punishment means long continued punishment, while eternal life means life without end, since Christ in the very same passage spoke of both in similar terms in one and the same sentence, "These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal!" Matthew 25:46 If both destinies are "eternal," then we must either understand both as long-continued but at last terminating, or both as endless. For they are correlative — on the one hand, punishment eternal, on the other hand, life eternal. And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end.

"This specious argument goes back at least to Augustine. As has long ago been said, however, due to its unreasonableness, it ought never be heard again."

Augustine was rather ignorant of Greek.

For some other parallels in Scripture consider:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.


Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: 32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

David Burnfield makes an interesting point re Matthew 25:46:

"None of the sins listed in [the context of] Matt.25:46 can be considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

He quotes Mt.12:31:

"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven." (NASB)

And emphasizes the words "any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people".

He then says "If we can believe what Christ tells us, then the 'only' sin that is 'not' forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which obviously does not include the sins listed in Matt.25:34-44."

Then he quotes from Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God...":

"Verse...46, in particular, has always been cited as undeniable proof that Jesus taught eternal punishment. Yet it is clear that the sins Jesus listed in this passage do not constitute the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Assuming Jesus did not utter this word with the intention of contradicting what he said moments before [Matt 12:31], we must accept that the sins mentioned in this passage [Matt 25:46] will eventually be forgiven. This means, however strange it may sound to us, that this statement of Jesus about eternal punishment is not the final word for those who are condemned."

(pg 220-221, Patristic Universalism: An Alternative To The Traditional View of Divine Judgement, 2nd ed, 2016, by David Burnfield)

The NT translation of Eastern Orthodox scholar Bentley Hart does not use the words "eternal" or "everlasting" at Mt.25:46, but instead reads "chastening of that Age" & "life of that Age". (The New Testament: A Translation, 2017, Yale University Press).

Many other versions do likewise.

Some literal translations of Mt.25:46 have:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

Regarding the Greek word for "punishment"(kolasis) in Matthew 25:46:

"In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

Was "eternal"(eonian) fire that burned Sodom endless, or finite:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

Do you think the city of Sodom in Israel is still burning by that "eternal fire" today? Or has it long ago been extinguished & was not "eternal" but eonian & finite? BTW, the same phrase, "eonian fire" also appears twice in Matthew (25:41; 18:8). If the eonian fire of Jude 1:7 was finite, then why can't the same in Matthew's account be finite? And if aionion is finite in Mt.25:41, shouldn't it also be finite in Mt.25:46 when again referring to punishment?

Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because if it is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Once saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

[journalofanalytictheology.com/ja ... 30418a/271](Journal of Analytic Theology)

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

"In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal."]http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf[/url

Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct." [earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book45.html](Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments)

In the year 544 A.D. the emperor Justinian wrote a letter:

"It is conceded that the half-heathen emperor held to the idea of endless misery, for he proceeds not only to defend, but to define the doctrine.2 He does not merely say, "We believe in aionion kolasin," for that was just what Origen himself taught. Nor does he say "the word aionion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration," as he would have said, had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek, with all the words of that abundant language from which to choose, he says: "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration.

[tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd21.html](Chapter 21 - Unsuccessful Attempts to Suppress Universalism)

If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

Early Church Father universalists who were Greek scholars & many others of the time did not see Mt.25:46 contradicting their belief:

"The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself (an Early Church Father universalist) declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?"

[tentmaker.org/forum/word-studie ... n-forever/](Another Aionios Thread - These Things Go On Forever)

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

 

[ClementofA]

In an effort to diminish "eternal" punishment, you are also diminishing "eternal" life. Because the exact same NT Greek word is used to describe both.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

 

[ClementofA]

Where do you draw the line?
If endless torment in hell is unthinkable, why not apply the same idea to momentary torment?

One is scriptural. The other isn't.

There is an infinite difference between infinite torments & finite torments.

There is an infinite difference between a God who will torment anyone for eternity & a God who will not.

We have earthly rules (Geneva Convention) against human torture of any kind. We categorize these acts as war crimes. Ten minutes of earthly torture would qualify, would it not?

In Singapore the law allows people to be beaten:

"Caning is a widely used form of legal corporal punishment in Singapore."

The crime rate is very low there.

Is not hell the creation of God? Created for Satan and his angels. The unbelieving/disbelieving humans will join them. But only temporarily according to you.

Does Love Omnipotent's love have an expiry date for any being? If He does not save all is it because He is incapable or because He doesn't want to?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.

2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias,
often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible.
Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") –
properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. ???????
(aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

ὄλεθρος — с греческого на все языки

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

Compare that above statement to:

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

Here we see "destruction" is for the good of the person:

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)
He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

Here we see destruction was temporary:

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)

"Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:

Thomas Talbott: The Inescapable Love of God (part 5)

II Thessalonians 1:8-9

Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:

"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.

"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).

"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.

"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.

"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."

Annihilation places huge doubt on Universalism

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/index.html

213 Questions Without Answers:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html

 

[ClementofA]

Ten Foundational Verses for Eternal Punishment in Hell
OCTOBER 4, 2011 | Justin Taylor

Already addressed many times on the forum, including several in this topic. Try a search or read the thread.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Rom.8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but (because of Him who subjected it, in expectation that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery
to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom.11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Rom.11:36 because out of Him, and through Him, and into Him are all; to Him is the glory -- into the eons. Amen.


Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.
1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)
2 Cor.5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, having concluded this, that One has died for all, therefore all have died.
2 Cor.5:18,19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.



Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.
Rev. 15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous deeds have been revealed."
Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Rev. 21:5 And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!" And then he said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true."


Isa.2:2 In the last days the mountain of the LORD's house will be established as the highest of the mountains and raised above the hills. All the nations will stream to it.

Isa.11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 12:1 Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

Isa.19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: 25Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

Isa.25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make to all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Is 40:2 “Speak kindly to Jerusalem; And call out to her, that her warfare has ended, That her iniquity has been removed, That she has received of the LORD’S hand double for all her sins.”

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Isa. 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

Isa. 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isa.53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa.53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isa.54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.
18 “I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners

 

[Saint Steven]

Oh my, I just now realized that everything I thought I’d deleted, I didn’t. Every thing past the smiley face was not supposed to be there. You know I hate long posts. I was trying to get out of the office and the edit part was below the screen when I hit send and walked out. Thanks for your much shorter reply. I think it’s a good place for us to leave things.

So, what other commonly held doctrines of the church (or my toddler) are you guys standing against? I know you personally reject the doctrine of the indwelling Holy Spirit. (if I understood you correctly) What is the scope of doctrines under attack by this periphery translation club? The Trinity? Vicarious Atonement? The Deity of Christ? How deep does the rabbit hole go? Did you find Alice? lol --- Send me a PM if you don't want to post your reply here. Thnx

 

[Solomon Smith]

The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.

2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias,
often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible.
Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") –
properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. ???????
(aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

ὄλεθρος — с греческого на все языки

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

Compare that above statement to:

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

Here we see "destruction" is for the good of the person:

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)
He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

Here we see destruction was temporary:

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)

"Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:

Thomas Talbott: The Inescapable Love of God (part 5)

II Thessalonians 1:8-9

Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:

"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.

"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).

"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.

"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.

"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."

Annihilation places huge doubt on Universalism

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

Ridiculous.....so the words don’t actually mean what they mean.....ridiculous.

 

[Solomon Smith]

They should make pills for this.

 

[Solomon Smith]

Already addressed many times on the forum, including several in this topic.

Addressed but not refuted.