Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

[Solomon Smith]

Dear Solomon: Did you notice the Master of Reconciliation in
this very parable is speaking to virgins and those given talents? You will note He is not speaking to harlots, but pure virgins, or pigs and dogs (both unclean animals)>>>>>WHY?

No. He’s speaking of the sheep and the goats.

 

[FineLinen]

No. He’s speaking of the sheep and the goats.

Dear Solomon: Indeed He is. You will also note sheep & goats are both clean animals. The entire parable from beginning to end encompasses pure virgins (5 wise & 5 unwise, but virgins) and clean animals sheep & goats, and individuals with talents with various degrees of investment. Why?

 

[Solomon Smith]

Dear Solomon: Indeed He is. You will also note sheep & goats are both clean animals. The entire parable from beginning to end encompasses pure virgins (5 wise & 5 unwise, but virgins) and clean animals sheep & goats, and individuals with talents with various degrees of investment. Why?

No the parable is about the sheep who served him and the goats who didn’t. It has nothing to do with virgins, clean animals, or talents.

 

[FineLinen]

No the parable is about the sheep who served him and the goats who didn’t. It has nothing to do with virgins, clean animals, or talents.

Dear Solomon: Evidently the pure virgins, the investment of talents and the two clean animals are just disjointed aspects of the verses of Matt. 25. My friend it is time to expand your horizons! It has everything to do with virgins, clean animals and talents all flowing together in the parable of the Master Jesus Christ the Lord!

ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell

 

[Solomon Smith]

Dear Solomon: Evidently the pure virgins, the investment of talents and the two clean animals are just disjointed aspects of the verses of Matt. 25. My friend it is time to expand your horizons! It has everything to do with virgins, clean animals and talents all flowing together in the parable of the Master Jesus Christ the Lord!

ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell

You must be delusional it’s about none of those things.

The passage is about sheep who did God’s will and goats who did not.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Solomon: That my friend is one of the more complimentary comments made regarding F.L. on these threads .

I may be delusional, but the Master of Reconciliation is not. In this one chapter of St. Matthew 25 the theme is regarding pure virgins, clean animals and investors who do not understand the Masters requirements.

Jesus the Christ never speaks in disjointed words and every word is above our carnal dispositions. The fact is pure virgins & clean animals of His flocks of sheep & goats are speaking directly of His people, not the wicked!

 

[FineLinen]

The Gospel According to St. Matthew
Return to Index

Chapter 25
1
'Then will the Kingdom of the Heavens be found to be like ten bridesmaids who took their torches and went out to meet the bridegroom.



2
Five of them were foolish and five were wise.



3
For the foolish, when they took their torches, did not provide themselves with oil;



4
but the wise, besides their torches, took oil in their flasks.



5
The bridegroom was a long time in coming, so that meanwhile they all became drowsy and fell asleep.



6
But at midnight there is a loud cry, ''The bridegroom! Go out and meet him!'



7
'Then all those bridesmaids roused themselves and trimmed their torches.



8
''Give us some of your oil,' said the foolish ones to the wise, 'for our torches are going out.'



9
''But perhaps,' replied the wise, 'there will not be enough for all of us. Go to the shops rather, and buy some for yourselves.'



10
'So they went to buy. But meanwhile the bridegroom came; those bridesmaids who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet; and the door was shut.



11
'Afterwards the other bridesmaids came and cried, ''Sir, Sir, open the door to us.'



12
''In solemn truth I tell you,' he replied, 'I do not know you.'



13
'Keep awake therefore; for you know neither the day nor the hour.



14
'Why, it is like a man who, when going on his travels, called his bondservants and entrusted his property to their care.



15
To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one--to each according to his individual capacity; and then started from home.



16
Without delay the one who had received the five talents went and employed them in business, and gained five more.



17
In the same way he who had the two gained two more.



18
But the man who had received the one went and dug a hole and buried his master's money.



19
'After a long lapse of time the master of those servants returned, and had a reckoning with them.



20
The one who had received the five talents came and brought five more, and said, ''Sir, it was five talents that you entrusted to me: see, I have gained five more.'



21
''You have done well, good and trustworthy servant,' replied his master; 'you have been trustworthy in the management of a little, I will put you in charge of much: share your master's joy.'



22
'The second, who had received the two talents, came and said, ''Sir, it was two talents you entrusted to me: see, I have gained two more.'



23
''Good and trustworthy servant, you have done well,' his master replied; 'you have been trustworthy in the management of a little, I will put you in charge of much: share your master's joy.'



24
'But, next, the man who had the one talent in his keeping came and said, ''Sir, I knew you to be a severe man, reaping where you had not sown and garnering what you had not winnowed.



25
So being afraid I went and buried your talent in the ground: there you have what belongs to you.'



26
''You wicked and slothful servant,' replied his master, 'did you know that I reap where I have not sown, and garner what I have not winnowed?



27
Your duty then was to deposit my money in some bank, and so when I came I should have got back my property with interest.



28
So take away the talent from him, and give it to the man who has the ten.'



29
(For to every one who has, more shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but from him who has nothing, even what he has shall be taken away.)



30
'But as for this worthless servant, put him out into the darkness outside: *there* will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.'



31
'When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then will He sit upon His glorious throne,



32
and all the nations will be gathered into His presence. And He will separate them from one another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;



33
and will make the sheep stand at His right hand, and the goats at His left.



34
'Then the King will say to those at His right, ''Come, my Father's blessed ones, receive your inheritance of the Kingdom which has been divinely intended for you ever since the creation of the world.



35
For when I was hungry, you gave me food; when I was thirsty, you gave me drink; when I was homeless, you gave me a welcome;



36
when I was ill-clad, you clothed me; when I was sick, you visited me; when I was in prison, you came to see me.'



37
''When, Lord,' the righteous will reply, 'did we see Thee hungry, and feed Thee; or thirsty, and give Thee drink?



38
When did we see Thee homeless, and give Thee a welcome? or ill-clad, and clothe Thee?



39
When did we see Thee sick or in prison, and come to see Thee?'



40
'But the King will answer them, ''In solemn truth I tell you that in so far as you rendered such services to one of the humblest of these my brethren, you rendered them to myself.'



41
'Then will He say to those at His left, ''Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels.



42
For when I was hungry, you gave me nothing to eat; when thirsty, you gave me nothing to drink;



43
when homeless, you gave me no welcome; ill-clad, you clothed me not; sick or in prison, you visited me not.'



44
'Then will they also answer, ''Lord, when did we see Thee hungry or thirsty or homeless or ill-clad or sick or in prison, and not come to serve Thee?'



45
'But he will reply, ''In solemn truth I tell you that in so far as you withheld such services from one of the humblest of these, you withheld them from me.'



46
'And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages.'

 

[Solomon Smith]

Dear Solomon: That my friend is one of the more complimentary comments made regarding F.L. on these threads .

I may be delusional, but the Master of Reconciliation is not. In this one chapter of St. Matthew 25 the theme is regarding pure virgins, clean animals and investors who do not understand the Masters requirements.

Jesus the Christ never speaks in disjointed words and every word is above our carnal dispositions. The fact is pure virgins & clean animals of His flocks of sheep & goats are speaking directly of His people, not the wicked!

No I’m sorry Matthew 25 is not about pure virgins, clean animals, or investors.

 

[FineLinen]

No I’m sorry Matthew 25 is not about pure virgins, clean animals, or investors.

Dear Solomon: Do not be sorry, simply enumerate what Matthew 25 is about in the 46 verses of the parable.

 

[Choir Loft]

No. The second death is the lake of fire and eternal punishment.

Revelation 20:14

First, I wish to remind the reader of the common use of the English word 'doctrine'.
According to Merriam-Webster dictionary, doctrine is something that is taught.

The word 'doctrine' carries no connotation of truth either implied or expressed. It is what it is. That which is taught is the issue, not the word. One can just as easily teach falsehood as doctrine as one can teach the procedures for making mashed potatoes as doctrine. Does someone need to revisit grade school educational levels so as to determine the simple meanings of a word such as doctrine?

Our discussion, instead of examining truth, is now reduced to paltry utterances over the normal meanings and use of words. I submit the issue at hand is being deliberately clouded so as to obfiscate Biblical truth - there being no other way to justify a doctrine of demons (a 'teaching' of demons as it were).

Returning to the matter at hand we address Matthew 25:46 with special attention paid to the phrase 'eternal punishment', which is the phrase most often translated into English and the one being used by a current demonic interpreter as a sort of flag to justify an attack upon the Biblical assertion that the wicked are totally and finally destroyed.

There are two types of references being employed to describe the punishment of burning. One type involves a period of conscious pain, while the second type is a form of capital execution. The best scriptural example of the meaning of eternal punishment as capital execution can be seen in Jude 1:7.

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Jude is here explaining what eternal punishment means and uses the five cities of the kingdom of Sodom as an illustrative example. Eternal punishment was applied to the cities of Sodom in the form of divine fire. The fire fell and everybody was toast.

The next day, or so the Bible says, Abraham came close to view the carnage and only saw smoke rising from the valley of Sodom below him. The people were gone and they never returned. The cities were laid waste and never rebuilt. Eternal punishment therefore means that Sodom was destroyed for all time.

Punishment by eternal fire therefore refers to total annihilation and/or execution by means of a process of consumption that is timeless - fire.

The gift of eternal life is given to those who are justified by the blood of Jesus Christ. The gift of eternal life is NOT granted to the wicked. Instead they are stripped of everything including existence itself.

What more terrible thing can describe eviction from the presence of God, who alone is the source of life? Being ordered to depart from the source of life is nothing less than death - the absence of life.

Twisting words is the ONLY way to justify false teaching. The simple meaning of life and death is therefore corrupted so as to dilute the gospel and the hope of the blessed in Christ. The teaching of the existence of hell is therefore a teaching of demons and liars.

It is of utter importance for all of us to repent of our sins and wickedness. There are no second chances after the end of life and no hope of convincing God to spare a sinner by falsification and confusion of the meaning of words and phrases. Dead is dead.

End of story.......

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<CL> . . . Returning to the matter at hand we address Matthew 25:46 with special attention paid to the phrase 'eternal punishment', which is the phrase most often translated into English and the one being used by a current demonic interpreter as a sort of flag to justify an attack upon the Biblical assertion that the wicked are totally and finally destroyed.
There are two types of references being employed to describe the punishment of burning. One type involves a period of conscious pain, while the second type is a form of capital execution. The best scriptural example of the meaning of eternal punishment as capital execution can be seen in Jude 1:7.
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Jude is here explaining what eternal punishment means and uses the five cities of the kingdom of Sodom as an illustrative example. Eternal punishment was applied to the cities of Sodom in the form of divine fire. The fire fell and everybody was toast.
The next day, or so the Bible says, Abraham came close to view the carnage and only saw smoke rising from the valley of Sodom below him. The people were gone and they never returned. The cities were laid waste and never rebuilt. Eternal punishment therefore means that Sodom was destroyed for all time.
Punishment by eternal fire therefore refers to total annihilation and/or execution by means of a process of consumption that is timeless - fire.
The gift of eternal life is given to those who are justified by the blood of Jesus Christ. The gift of eternal life is NOT granted to the wicked. Instead they are stripped of everything including existence itself.
What more terrible thing can describe eviction from the presence of God, who alone is the source of life? Being ordered to depart from the source of life is nothing less than death - the absence of life.
Twisting words is the ONLY way to justify false teaching. The simple meaning of life and death is therefore corrupted so as to dilute the gospel and the hope of the blessed in Christ. The teaching of the existence of hell is therefore a teaching of demons and liars.
It is of utter importance for all of us to repent of our sins and wickedness. There are no second chances after the end of life and no hope of convincing God to spare a sinner by falsification and confusion of the meaning of words and phrases. Dead is dead.
End of story.......
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...<end>

end

I thank you for instructing us in "the common use of the English word 'doctrine.'"
.....Now let us turn our attention to the "proof text." Jud 1:7

Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.​

The adjective "eternal" does not modify the word "suffer" and it does not modify the word "vengeance." Only the fire is said to be "eternal" It does not say "eternal suffering" and it does not say "eternal vengeance." So Jude did not say "the eternal vengeance."
.....We know that everyone will be resurrected and judged.

Hebrew 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Acts of apostles 24:15
(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Daniel 2:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28-29
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

In the gospels Jesus is quoted as using the word "death" seventeen times. In the book of Matt alone Jesus said "death" six times, when Jesus meant death He said death.
.....The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection they know that everyone died men, women, old, young, children, infants and that "punishment" had nothing to do with it. When Jesus said "eternal punishment" it would not have meant "death" to the Sadducees, it would have meant something worse.
.....One of the beliefs held by the Jews at the time of Jesus was "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," Judith xvi. 17. The book of Judith was written before the birth of Jesus and was included in the Septuagint.

 

[The Gryphon]

The majority of those who identify themselves as "Christians" have at best a very surface understanding of what the Bible and Scripture contained there in actually says much less has made any in-depth study into the very Tenants of Christianity. Many who have attended Church for most of their lives have only absorbed what their pastors or priests have told them. How many actually have taken the time to actively establish a one on one relationship with G_d, Yeshua (Jesus- how many even know that Jesus' name in Hebrew is Yeshua?) and the Holy Spirit? If you really want to be humbled about your knowledge concerning your understanding of the Bible seek out a Messianic Jewish Congregation. Prepare to be amazed by what you had no idea about.

People need to worry about their own soul and where they stand in rightness to G_d. G_d is the Righteous Judge, He alone has the Right and Power. I nor anyone else knows the heart of another and that persons state of grace with G_d. I see people arguing over who and how different people in history could be saved when it is really none of their affair for it is between G_d and the sinner if they truly repented or not for we are not to judge as scripture states. Even Jesus while upon this earth who knew all did not judge as in the case of the woman caught in adultery but told her to go and sin no more. Humans seem to want to be in everyone else's business and yet neglect their own.

 

[DM25]

Oh...well...

It's still venemous garbage.

Excuse me? I go by the bible alone, not man's teachings. AND THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS THERE WILL BE ETERNAL TORMENT FOR THE WICKED ONCE.

 

[DM25]

The bible says reject a heretic after admonishing 3 times. This guy is clearly pushing an agenda. Shake the dust off your feet.

I go by what the bible says and the bible says the punishment for sin is death,.

 

[DM25]

This thread is lunacy.

The bible never once mentions eternal torment for the wicked. Not once.

 

[DM25]

If there’s no hell then we can do whatever we want. We can run around fornicating and murdering people and get off scot free.....

There is hell, and it's a place where the wicked will burn to death. And they will be dead for eternity. That is not a fun fate to have, but it is a just one.

 

[FineLinen]

Solomon Smith said:

"If there’s no hell then we can do whatever we want. We can run around fornicating and murdering people and get off scot free....."

Dear Solomon Smith: If hell is the reason you cease from fornication & murdering people, you need to begin the journey over again! Sooner rather than later.

"Should I worship Him from fear of hell, may I be cast into it. Should I serve Him from desire of gaining heaven, may He keep me out. But should I worship Him from love alone, He reveals Himself to me, that my whole heart may be filled with His love and presence."Sadhu Sundar Singh-

 

[ClementofA]

Daniel 2:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
​

That mistranslation should be Daniel 12:2, not 2:2.


In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. αἰσχύνη (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

The context of Dan.12:2 suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism




​

 

[ClementofA]

.....Now let us turn our attention to the "proof text." Jud 1:7

Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.​

The adjective "eternal" does not modify the word "suffer" and it does not modify the word "vengeance." Only the fire is said to be "eternal" It does not say "eternal suffering" and it does not say "eternal vengeance." So Jude did not say "the eternal vengeance."
....

Nothing in scripture proves that either the πυρ το αιωνιον/pur to aiōnion in Matt 18:8 or Jud 7 is temporary. In Matt 18:8 people are thrown into pur to aiōnion. You certainly don't know where that is or whether it is temporary or eternal. In Jud 7 God sends down the pur to aiōnion from heaven you certainly don't know what happened to the fire after it destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The fact that the fire is no longer in Sodom and Gomorrah does not prove it was temporary.

The cities were still undergoing the penalty of the eonian fire in Jude's day:

Jude 7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLNT)

Jude 1:7 Interlinear: as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

Secondly, there is historical evidence the fire was still burning in Jude's day, which makes it eonian & finite, but not eternal:

"... that fire, with which those cities, and the inhabitants of it, were consumed; which, Philo the (k) Jew says, burnt till his time, and must be burning when Jude wrote this epistle..."

"(k) De Abrahamo, p. 370."

"...Charles notes on this that “the Gehenna valley here includes the adjacent country down to the Dead Sea. A subterranean fire was believed to exist under the Gehenna valley.” "

Jude 1:7 Commentaries: just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.



"But what if Jude believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah had not been extinguished? What if he believed that the fires still burned in his day? Indeed, what if it were common knowledge that the fires of destruction still burned... An examination of the historical record would seem to indicate that this is precisely the case:

" "And in one day these populous cities became the tomb of their inhabitants, and the vast edifices of stone and timber became thin dust and ashes. And when the flames had consumed everything that was visible and that existed on the face of the earth, they proceeded to burn even the earth itself, penetrating into its lowest recesses, and destroying all the vivifying powers which existed within it so as to produce a complete and everlasting barrenness, so that it should never again be able to bear fruit, or to put forth any verdure; and to this very day it is scorched up. For the fire of the lightning is what is most difficult to extinguish, and creeps on pervading everything, and smouldering. And a most evident proof of this is to be found in what is seen to this day: for the smoke which is still emitted, and the sulphur which men dig up there, are a proof of the calamity which befell that country" (Philo, On Abraham 27)."

" "The length of this lake is five hundred and eighty furlongs, where it is extended as far as Zoar in Arabia; and its breadth is a hundred and fifty. The country of Sodom borders
upon it. It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits; which fruits have a color as if they were fit to be eaten, but if you pluck them with your hands, they dissolve into smoke and ashes. And thus what is related of this land of Sodom hath these marks of credibility which our very sight affords us." (Josephus, The Wars of the Jews, IV.8.4)."

" "The fire which burns beneath the ground and the stench render the inhabitants of the neighboring country sickly and very short lived" (Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica, II.48)."

" "Lake Sirbonis [most historians agree that Strabo has confused Lake Sirbonis with the Dead Sea] is large; in fact some state that it is one thousand stadia in circuit; however, it extends parallel to the coast to a length of slightly more than two hundred stadia, is deep to the very shore, and has water so very heavy that there is no use for divers, and any person who walks into it and proceeds no farther than up to his navel is immediately raised afloat. It is full of asphalt. The asphalt is blown to the surface at irregular intervals from the midst of the deep, and with it rise bubbles, as though the water were boiling; and the surface of the lake, being convex, presents the appearance of a hill. With the asphalt there arises also much soot, which, though smoky, is imperceptible to the eye; and it tarnishes copper and silver and anything that glistens, even gold" (Strabo, Geography, XVI.42)..."

"Conclusion"

"When Jude was writing his Epistle, he and his readers believed the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah were still burning."

For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Jude 7

John Gill's commentary of 2 Pet.2:6 says:

"and so the author of the book of Wisdom 10:7 speaking of the five cities, on which fire fell, says,"

" "of whose wickedness, even to this day, the waste land that smoketh is a testimony; and plants bearing fruit, that never come to ripeness.'' "

"Philo the Jew (b) says, that"

" "there are showed to this day in Syria monuments of this unspeakable destruction that happened; as ruins, ashes, sulphur, smoke, and a weak flame, breaking forth as of a fire burning:'' "

2 Peter 2:6 Commentaries: and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

.....You are misreading or misrepresenting your Sodom proof text.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The adjective "eternal" does not modify "suffering" or "vengeance." "Eternal" only modifies "fire."

Yes, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are still in hell, because they never repented of their sin and turned to God.

Neither Jude 1:7 nor any other passage of Sacred Scripture supports that statement.

The proper translation is important. Compare the "Interlinear" for Jude 7 via this site:

Jude 1 Interlinear Bible

The Interlinear there says it is not "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire", as your posted version says, but the cities are "set forth as an example", "undergoing the penalty of fire aioniou".

Similarly, a literal version reads:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLNT)

"We likewise subscribe to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, who "are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7). This occurred many centuries ago. How poor a passage to apply to that which is thousands of years hence!"

"The word "set forth" is, literally, "lying before." The term "example" or specimen, is from the word show. These are readily comprehended if we apply them to the sites of Sodom and Gomorrah today. Their destruction was so complete that their exact location is in dispute. Now the preponderance of opinion places them under the shallow end of the Dead Sea. No one can visit this terrible desolation without fully appreciating the force of these words."

"But we are asked to forget this solemn and forceful scene for an "example" which no one can see, and which is not at all "set forth" or "lying before" us. We are asked to forget the fire (Gen.19:24) which destroyed these cities so that the smoke of the plain went up like the smoke of a furnace. The justice or "vengeance" of this fire is all too evident to this very day. It is a powerful reminder of God's judgment which should deter those who are tempted to follow a similar path. This fire is called "eternal." Just now the plain is covered by water, not fire. It was an eonian fire, as is witnessed by its effect for the eon."

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

"2 Peter 2:6 gives a parallel passage, where we read that God condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them for an example. This is perfectly plain, unless we try to distinguish between the cities and the people, and make conscious cinders suffer from flames beneath the waters of the Dead Sea."

"If the Sodomites were on public exhibition where all could see them suffering in the flames of a medieval hell, we might consider them as set forth as an example, but as no one has ever seen them, and no one can see them, they are no example at all. The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God's eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon. When Jerusalem is restored, they will be restored."

A Reply To “Universalism Refuted” Part Seven

Do you believe that the city of Sodom in Israel today is still burning from the fire that destroyed it? Will the burning be "eternal" or has the "eternal fire" already ended? In which case "eternal" is a deceptive translation & the fire was temporary, not "eternal".

Do you think the city of Sodom in Israel is still burning by that "eternal fire" today? Or has it long ago been extinguished & was not "eternal" but eonian & finite? BTW, the same phrase, "eonian fire" also appears twice in Matthew (25:41; 18:8). If the eonian fire of Jude 1:7 was finite, then why can't the same in Matthew's account be finite?

Were the bodies of the people of Sodom destroyed (killed) by that fire destroyed forever, i.e. endlessly annihilated. No, it is a temporary destruction until their resurrection. Their resurrection will reverse that destruction. IOW the resurrection will destroy that destruction. Love Omnipotent destroys and then He makes alive again what He destroyed:

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." (Dt.32:39)

Jude doesn't refer to the fire burning in some "hell" somewhere. Rather he refers to a punishment whose effects were observable to the human eye.

Obviously fire & brimstone "destroyed" Sodom & the other cities:

Gen.19:24 Then the LORD rained down brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah— from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus He DESTROYED these CITIES and the entire plain, including all the INHABITANTS of the cities and everything that grew on the ground

Both the "cities" & the "inhabitants" received that destroying fire (Gen.19:24). Likewise Jude 1:7 refers to both the "cities" & the inhabitants who sinned:

7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian.(CLV)

7 As, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having in like manner to these given themselves over to fornication, and gone away after other kind of flesh, lie exposed as an example, a penalty of age-abiding fire, undergoing. (Ro)

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before—an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering. (YLT)

The "example" is translated as "specimen" in the CLV above. Thayer's Greek lexicon says the Greek word (Strongs #1164, DEIGMA) for such translations means "a. properly, thing shown" & "b. a specimen of anything, example, pattern".

The CLV above says "lying before us". This is a translation of Strongs Greek word # 4295 (prokeimai). Thayer gives the meanings of it as "1. properly, to lie or be placed before (a person or thing), or in front" & "2. to be set before, i. e., a. to be placed before the eyes, to lie in sight; to stand forth".

So, therefore, as i've previously said:

Jude 1:7 refers to the "cities", which housed the populations. Obviously both were destroyed by the aioniou fire. You can go to Israel today & see the brimstone. So Jude 1:7 says they "are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian". Jude doesn't say they are in the unseen underworld where no living human being can see them. Instead, he says, they are lying right here in front of our eyes, where anyone can see them, undergoing the justice of the eonian fire. But only until Sodom is restored (Ezek. 16).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

.....One of the beliefs held by the Jews at the time of Jesus was "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," Judith xvi. 17. The book of Judith was written before the birth of Jesus and was included in the Septuagint.

How do you know that is translated correctly? Where is your evidence for such an unsubstantiated opinion that that was "One of the beliefs held by the Jews at the time of Jesus"? How many Jews believed that? What were the other beliefs on the subject & how many Jews believed each of them? Were they the same beliefs of the Pharisees?

Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees:

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Clearly the opinions of the anti-Christian Jews were wrong about the Messiah in their rejection of Jesus Christ. So why should they be right what you quoted them saying?

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