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Featured Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DM25, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. DM25

    DM25 Well-Known Member

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    God made the soul, so he can destroy it as well. Nowhere in scripture does it say a soul can not be destroyed. That is just a concept humans made up, and for some reason they believe it without backing up their claims. Absolutely a wicked soul can be destroyed.
     
  2. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    Washing in Easton's Bible Dictionary (Mark 7:1-9). The Jews, like other Orientals, used their fingers when taking food, and therefore washed their hands before doing so, for the sake of cleanliness. Here the reference is to the ablutions prescribed by tradition, according to which "the disciples ought to have gone down to the side of the lake, washed their hands thoroughly, 'rubbing the fist of one hand in the hollow of the other, then placed the ten finger- tips together, holding the hands up, so that any surplus water might flow down to the elbow, and thence to the ground.'" To neglect to do this had come to be regarded as a great sin, a sin equal to the breach of any of the ten commandments.

    The point being, it is about the washing of hands for whatever reason, It was not commanded. That's it, to extrapolate more than that is twisting the scriptures.
     
  3. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think an Orthodox Jew knows more about Jewish traditions than Easton. I also think he said that it is in the Talmud.
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    That is correct. Now show me where gentile Christians were taught any more of the Torah? Unless gentiles were taught Torah they could not be required to obey it. Where does any scripture show that gentile Christians regularly attended synagogues? Jesus did not say His followers would attend synagogues along side of Torah observant Jews. In fact Jesus said they would be kicked out of the synagogues and killed.
    John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
    When were uncircumcised NT Christians ever welcomed into the synagogues?
    All but one of the 10 commandments are cited in the NT, more than once, as binding on NT Christians. People who read all the scriptures instead only of their out-of-context proof texts would know this.

    Your out-of-context proof text says nothing about uncircumcised gentile Christians regularly attending synagogues.

    More out-of-context proof texts which say nothing about uncircumcised gentile Christians attending synagogues. Did Jesus lie when He said His followers would be thrown out of the synagogues?

    Paul was a Torah observant Jew but he was persecuted throughout the NT for his belief in the Jesus as the Messiah. How would uncircumcised Christians be accepted in the synagogues?
    Who were the Jews who read the Torah every Sabbath in house churches in these cities every Sabbath?

    In other words you can't show me where any uncircumcised gentile Christians regularly attended a synagogue in even one city and were taught Torah, let alone Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonika, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea and all the other cities and lands mentioned in the NT. Were uncircumcised gentile Christians ever, up to and including the present time, accepted in worship along side Torah observant Jews?

     
  5. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    Personally if it is from the Talmud, not interested.

    Karaites don't follow the so-called Oral Law of the Talmud, and adopt the most straightforward interpretation of mitzvot from the Torah.

    They don't wear tefillin, because they realize that carrying God as a seal in one's heart and on one's arm is a metaphor (otherwise, surgical implants would be required).

    They allow themselves to eat cheeseburgers, because the only literal prohibition relating to meat and dairy is to avoid boiling a calf in its mother's milk.



    But you appeal to Writings that say, maybe sanitized by now, that YESHUA is boiling in hot excrement, and that is a more reliable a source than Easton, next you will start quoting the quran as your proof.

    OY VEY

    Judaism developed more and more into an interpretative religion and the Talmud reflects this and kept being commented through the ages, while Karaites kept the same structure as two thousand years ago. There is an extensive debate whether they should still be considered part of Judaism or simply another religion like Christianism that also follows the old testament but not the rabbinical lineage of interpretations.

    This to say, not all Jews are talmudic Jews, find a better source.

    But that is not the point, the point is

    Nevermind, it would just be redundant to repeat it again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  6. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What Karaite Jew do you know or get your teachings from?
     
  7. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    deleted, always thought Yair Davidy was a Karaite, maybe he is not - would not recommend him to others, as I wouldn't with the talmudic Jews, to much muck to wade through. So the answer is None. Nehemia Gordon claims to be a Karaite, He is only good for knowing when is the new moon... other than that he is anti-missionary... Just found an article Yair wrote years ago, He is definitely not a Karaite, not sure why I ever thought he was.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  8. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    All ten are sighted in the New Covenant

    There remains therefore a Sabbatismos for the people of Elohim. Hebrews 4:9

    Strongs Concordance: Sabbatismos, keeping Sabbath

    Institute for scriptural research translation. There remains therefore a Sabbath observance for the people of God.

    Just because the translators were biased, Greek thinkers like you

    Acts of the Apostles 13:42

    And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

    44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

    Acts of Apostles 18:4

    And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

    Acts of the Apostles 22:19

    And I said, Adonai, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on Thee:

    You're the worst apologist ever
     
  9. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What relevance do such extrabiblical Jewish beliefs have? Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).
    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


    Scripture says:

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
    (Titus 1:14).

    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)



    Unproven & irrelevant. Whether true or not. Scripture says:

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Such as the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of "heretics", etc.

    In contrast to the fables & myths of endless torments, Paul says again to Timothy:

    1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    1Tim.2 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-torments-were-true-is-god-a-monster.8042349/
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Those are deceptive erroneous translations:

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...in-duration-with-aionion-in-mt-25-46.8069208/


    Mark 9 43-49 addressed here:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sition-to-endless-hell.8042016/#post-72141156


    Addressed at the following url. Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151


    Addressed here:

    Matthew 7:21-23:
    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-35#post-72162632

    Addressed here:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sition-to-endless-hell.8042016/#post-72141042


    Nope. That's pure assumption. And wrong.


    A fate compared to death is nothing. Death is merely the instant one passes from this life to the next. And the word "nonexistence" is nowhere used in the Old or New Testaments. The urls above address those Matthew passages in detail.


    That passages opposes your theories:

    10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

    Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

    Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

    Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
    under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
    the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
    powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

    He didn't teach "eternal punishment". Neither did He use the language you quoted above from some Jews, e.g. Pharisees. Instead He warned His disciples re the false teachings of the Pharisees & their "traditions of men" that oppose the Word of God. He said not to give heed to Jewish fables & myths. That includes horror tales as like what you've quoted above from Judaism, which opposes Biblical Christianity.
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That argument is extremely confusing. Who can understand what the author is trying to say? First he speaks of "aionas aionion" as meaning a "finite period" & then, in the same sentence, he refers to it being "forever and forever". Which is it, forever or finite?

    If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

    If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration.

    Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-11.htm

    And another more literal translation than yours:

    Young's Literal Translation
    and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

    Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

    For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...hilationsim-vs-eternal-torment.8019864/page-7

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That claim has been answered & disproven many times before, e.g.:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2#post-72110302

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-25#post-72149978

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...k-a-universalism.8070242/page-8#post-72862899

    OTOH here we see many examples where αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described as being of a finite duration:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

    http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

    12 points re forever and ever being a deceptive translation & being finite:
    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151

    Der Alter has never answered & refuted any of the above, but rather continually ignores them.
     
  14. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Walk up to any father/mother and talk about how they will NEVER see there kids again.. and then tell them how much YOU really care about mom and dad though.

    My point is..this GOD loved the WORLD. Do you see that LOVE 1st? Came died for the sins of the WORLD. So lost are HIS not yours not mine.. we didn't create them. They are HIS creation. Saved are HIS children. So unless one is a GOD. No books have been open. No great white throne judgment. So..just WHO is lost forever? NO ones toss in some fire yet. It was made for Satan and his angels. Those that follow Satan will receive the same reward.

    The Father of our lord JESUS Christ MADE THEM..made all. He crys so hard for not ONE knows how much HE loves us. Then.. for a believer to talk about (forgive me Father) hell.. wow rub it in His face. Does it hurt us to lose someone? Well AMP IT UP.. its GOD..And He cares SO much more then us.

    I always have HOPE... whats coming for some.. after that ..there is NEVER any more hope. And I didnt create them
     
  15. JoeP222w

    JoeP222w Well-Known Member

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    You have completely misquoted me and misrepresented me. You have born false witness. I never said "A soul can not be destroyed." You need to retract your statement.

    Original quote:
    "Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”"
     
  16. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    If there were atheists on the site they would wholey agree and love your position. Your position is exactly what the atheists and evil men on earth want. That is what they hope and expect is waiting for them....nothing at all that matches the deeds of their lives. Those of your position want to tell us that this is punishment enough but I have talked to atheists and the like and they very much believe and hope what you say awaits them. No real judgement or punishment, just eternal sleep. That is their wish. They get off scot free for all the evil they ever did. If that is not a wicked man's dream come true, what is?

    (It is, btw, terribly unjust as the more wicked a man is, the better he will like the eternal reward. No punishment in his experience at all just his eternal dreams fulfilled.)
     
  17. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Nowhere it says that the destruction process can not take forever aswell it's your assumption that it does not . Psalms 49:6-8
     
  18. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    There are a couple of things I notice in the OP and subsequent posts by the author. One, is the opening salvo assumes those who do not agree with the poster are against her. That the vast majority haven't thought about it much does not seem to be an option. So the line is an attack against those who disagree.

    This view of people is continued in the way those who do not agree with the poster are pictured. The state of their underwear is addressed in a rather offensive manner. Again, if one does not agree with the poster, then one is in some kind of emotional frothing state. That people simply and calmly do not agree does not seem to be an option.

    What cannot be denied by either side, is that the poster is offering an out or comfort for those who decide to live a life of selfish evil. This is a comfort no one in the Bible ever offers the wicked. The wicked are warned against coming judgement and the outcome. No one who knew God tells them not to worry, the worst that can happen is eternal sleep. No one.

    So the logical position of those who want to have the mind of Christ is to warn against coming judgment and give no comfort of an out for anyone. Since no one who wrote the Bible apparently thought eternal sleep was coming and the wicked do not need to worry about suffering, but just the opposite, the OP is on very thin ice. The poster is comforting the wicked in their lifestyle. I would not want to have that charge laid against me when I stand before Him.
     
  19. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Member since 2005 Supporter

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    Matthew 25:46 (AMP)
    46 Then these[unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”
    If the eternal punishment of the unsaved doesn't last forever, then the eternal life of the saved doesn't last forever either. Someone who has ceased to exist (been annihilated) can no longer be punished, therefore, the punishment is not eternal, thus, the life of the saved is not eternal either. For this verse to be true, annihilationism has to be false.
     
  20. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Looks like the punishment is eternal in duration and punishment in quality. Eternal sleep or annihilation is a reward for the wicked. It is what they are all hoping for.
     
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