Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

συνείδησις

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Ridiculous, the wicked do not go unpunished, they are destroyed after the appropriate punishment is administered according to His Justice, those that knew His Will and refused will receive More punishment than those that were less guilty.

Yours is the sadistic doctrine. If they are to be destroyed completely what's the point of punishing them beforehand? That's truly sadistic.
 
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SarahsKnight

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You have it exactly backwards. Yours is the argument that appeals to emotion. That's all it's based on.

Yeah, you know, except for all of those verses in Scripture that use the terms death, destroyed, consumed, burned up, perish - basically everything but eternal torment - when speaking of the fate of the unbelieving, just a few of which I cited in earlier posts. I am sure they were just hand-waved away, though, and anything new I bring up will also be. Nice try, though, son, just trying to put it out there that we conditionalists have nothing Scripturally, in hopes that the mere impact of the accusation alone will deter people from investigating and seeing for themselves that eternal conscious torment in hell actually barely has any backup from Scripture, and an abundance supporting conditional immortality.
 
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SonOfZion

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Yours is the sadistic doctrine. If they are to be destroyed completely what's the point of punishing them beforehand? That's truly sadistic.

Luke 12:47

And that servant, which knew his Master's will, and prepared not , neither did according to His will, shall be beaten with many.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

2 Peter 2:21

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the Holy commandment delivered unto them.
 
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συνείδησις

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Yeah, you know, except for all of those verses in Scripture that use the terms death, destroyed, consumed, burned up, perish - basically everything but eternal torment - when speaking of the fate of the unbelieving, just a few of which I cited in earlier posts. I am sure they were just hand-waved away, though, and anything new I bring up will also be. Nice try, though, son, just trying to put it out there that we conditionalists have nothing Scripturally, in hopes that the mere impact of the accusation alone will deter people from investigating and seeing for themselves that eternal conscious torment in hell actually barely has any backup from Scripture, and an abundance supporting conditional immortality.

That's just how you choose to interpret those words. In doing so you ignore all of the other words that say punishment is eternal.
 
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TuxAme

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Why are so many Christians against an eternal, conscious hell when Scripture (and the Church for well over 1500 years) supports that notion?

Jesus says that, unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood, we have no life in us. Well, plenty of people live their lives without receiving Him in the Eucharist, so here Jesus wasn't speaking of our earthly lives. And if you don't believe in the Real Presence (that's another conversation), those who don't believe in Christ are still walking among us. So, there's double proof that this "life" Jesus spoke of is eternal life. Simple enough, and we should all be agreement on this.

So, if Jesus here spoke of life as eternal life, meaning our spending eternity with Him in Heaven, what, then, would be the opposite of that? What's the opposite of spending eternity with God? Wouldn't it be eternity apart from God? Wouldn't that be precisely what Jesus spoke of when He said "and they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"? How is one's punishment to be eternal if it eventually comes to an end?
 
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Hawkins

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Historically, biblical Canon was guarded by mainly the Great Sanhedrin which is composed of both Pharisees and Sadducees. Sadducees believed in no soul, no hell and such while the Pharisees believed the opposite, which is immortal soul and eternal hell. Practically, it is the Pharisees who enforced both the Oral Law and the Bible Canon as the Sadducees only reckoned the first 5 books of the Bible.

Jews in majority adapted the Pharisaic concepts and that's there's never a 5 book canon ever existed. The Pharisaic version of Bible canon is always in place.

Jesus on the other hand, never tried to correct these once dominated Pharisaic concept. He literally gave endorsement to the Pharisaic teachings by saying that the Jews should listen to what the Pharisees preach, just don't do what they do as they don't do what they preach. He also made use of the Pharisaic concepts into His parable. A parable is the making use of easy terms to illustrate a less obvious point of view. Thus burning hell and such were common concepts familiar to the Jews back then for Jesus to use those concept to illustrate a point.

Today's Jews may have given up the Pharisaic concepts simply because of a gap between 70 AD and the revival of Judaism after 200 AD. Today's Judaism is a remake after 200 AD by a group of rabbis popping from no where (more likely from Egypt). They seemed to adapt the Sadducees concepts but with a Pharisaic version of Bible canon (simply because it's the only version ever existed).

That said. It's natural that more obvious Jewish writings, such as the book of Enoch, cannot be part of the Bible Canon because you need to first gain acceptance from the Sanhedrin which including the Sadducees.
 
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Dan the deacon

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Read the last few verses in Isaiah 66 where it is a scene of what is taking place on the new earth.
Read Daniel 12:1-2 as to how others will rise to -shame and everlasting contempt/abhor.

I believe the wicked will be looked upon for eternity to remind the just to not sin against God Almighty!

their worm shall not die -I believe is the soul/spirit -not the body
I believe that only the body will die, but the wicked souls will suffer in the lake of fire for eternity.

Parts of the body can be cut off in the parable, then the person can still enter into life. Yet, the just will be viewing the wicked at specific times for eternity, and be abhorred at this. So, they would have to be seeing souls as the worm that does not die.

The OT tells how the wicked rich will die -and never see light.
The rich man in hell can never have mercy or go from his area to where the righteous are.
Isaiah 34 shows what will happen to the land of Edom-it becomes burning pitch.
Malachi wrote as to how God will have indignation against the people there - forever.
In the OT, the length of time of indignation by God against people/lands, animals is the time of torment.
I would say you understand it well.
 
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SonOfZion

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That's just how you choose to interpret those words. In doing so you ignore all of the other words that say punishment is eternal.

What part of the punishment is eternal, because once the soul is destroyed, It is never coming back that you are unable to understand. Matthew 10:28 annihilated, nothing left ... Comprehension is fundamental.
 
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Hawkins

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What part of the punishment is eternal, because once the soul is destroyed, It is never coming back that you are unable to understand. Matthew 10:28 annihilated, nothing left ... Comprehension is fundamental.

Matthew 25:46 (NIV2011)
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


When you kill a fish and eat it, will you consider the fish in eternal punishment?
 
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SarahsKnight

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That's just how you choose to interpret those words. In doing so you ignore all of the other words that say punishment is eternal.

What, two verses that speak of eternal punishment against the terms I mentioned above? I choose to interpret them the wrong way, really?

And death is a punishment, anyway, like it or not. (In fact, it was the very first punishment God ever warned of in Scripture, in the Garden of Eden - DEATH, in plain words.) The phrase eternal punishment can fit with the conditionalist view almost just as easily as any kind of eternally ongoing conscious punishment, if the death is everlasting and there is no coming back from it. Really not that big of a stretch.

But no, in favor of the two pet eternal punishment verses apparently we are supposed to interpret that death really means "spiritual death" (a term we ourselves made up and is not found in Scripture), to be destroyed or everlasting destruction really means an ongoing process of being destroyed without ever actually being destroyed, perish really means just live miserably, and consumed by fire really means be preserved in fire so that you feel the pain of being burned but never actually get consumed or burned up by it.

... Sorry, I can't buy that. This argument you put forth implying that I choose to interpret the above terms in a special way (as in, I interpret them the exact way they sound) so as to avoid acknowledging the reality of eternal torment does not hold water.

(And again, for those new to this thread who favor eternal torment and did not see me say this the first time, spare me the "*gasp* You deny Christ's very words?!" smear attack, just because I believe He meant something different by contrasting eternal life and eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46 than traditionalists do. ... Besides, if people live forever in hell as well as heaven, why would Jesus then use the phrase eternal life solely for the believers in that verse, instead of clarifying that both believers and unbelievers have some kind of eternal life, albeit one in bliss and the other in misery?)
 
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SonOfZion

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Matthew 25:46 (NIV2011)
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


When you kill a fish and eat it, will you consider the fish in eternal punishment?


What about when a fish eats a man, is he in hell/sheol Forever, like Jonah said that he was.

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto YHWH, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and Thou heardest my voice. Jonah 2:2


I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast Thou brought up my life from corruption, O YHWH my Elohim. Jonah 2:6

The only thing that comes to mind, as your question needs to be re-phrased, because I have no idea of what you are trying to say. OY VEY
 
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Rubiks

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That's just how you choose to interpret those words. In doing so you ignore all of the other words that say punishment is eternal.

Hell/Annihilation is eternal, with no hope for another resurrection.
 
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Rubiks

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Matthew 25:46 (NIV2011)
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


When you kill a fish and eat it, will you consider the fish in eternal punishment?

Eternal punishment can simply mean "final". (with no hope for a future resurrection) Hebrews 5:9 mentions "eternal salvation." Are we continuously being saved for all eternity?
 
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Hawkins

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What about when a fish eats a man, is he in hell/sheol Forever, like Jonah said that he was.

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto YHWH, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and Thou heardest my voice. Jonah 2:2


I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast Thou brought up my life from corruption, O YHWH my Elohim. Jonah 2:6

The only thing that comes to mind, as your question needs to be re-phrased, because I have no idea of what you are trying to say. OY VEY

The point is, annihilation violates even the basic concept of eternal punishment. In human conceptions, we don't call something annihilated in eternal punishment.
 
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Hawkins

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Eternal punishment can simply mean "final". Hebrews 5:9 mentions "eternal salvation." Are we continuously being saved for all eternity?

You mean to say the the term eternal isn't eternal. Or how possible that it's an explain away instead?

To me it's just another "the Bible is wrong but you are right" argument.
 
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Rubiks

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The point is, annihilation violates even the basic concept of eternal punishment. In human conceptions, we don't call something annihilated in eternal punishment.

Intertestamental literature would disagree.
 
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Hawkins

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Intertestamental literature would disagree.
Intertestamental literature would disagree.

No. You have to make use of an unfamiliar term only shows your lack of an valid argument.

Put very plainly aiōnios is an adjective meaning “eternal, perpetual.” Among classical writers this especially refers to “endless time,” a period of time lasting “for an age” (Liddell-Scott). Together with aiōn (163) the term acquired philosophical overtones, especially beginning in the writings of Plato who developed the term along lines of “super-time, an idea of time in itself” (Guhrt, “Time,” Colin Brown, 3:827). Later, individuals and groups adopted this concept; this opened the door for even further speculations about time (ibid.). (See article on aiōn.)

Despite the rather singular meaning of aiōnios in both Biblical and nonbiblical sources, a fundamental difference exists between the classical/philosophical Greek concept of “eternity” and the Hebraic/Biblical attitude. Whereas the Biblical concept of eternity is an eternity filled with time, “endless time,” the philosophical, Greek notion knows only a “timeless eternity.” In eternity there is no such thing as time— no such thing as past, present, or future, only an eternal now. According to such thinkers as Plato everything in the created order belonged to the realm of time, while eternity was the exclusive territory of deity.


Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Alpha-Gamma.


Greek Strong's Number: 166

Greek Word: αἰώνιος

Transliteration: aiōnios

Phonetic Pronunciation: ahee-o'-nee-os

Root: from <G165>

Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:208,31

Part of Speech: adj

Vine's Words: Eternal, Everlasting


Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
 
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SonOfZion

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The point is, annihilation violates even the basic concept of eternal punishment. In human conceptions, we don't call something annihilated in eternal punishment.

So that's what this means?

"When you kill a fish and eat it, will you consider the fish in eternal punishment?"

So, let me try to get this analogy straight.

I kill a fish, slit its gills while it is alive, and the blood pours out, and it dies, that's the best way, taste better too.

Smoke the halibut on the grill and eat it, Halibut fresh, Yum

Now will I consider the fish?

How is the fish in eternal punishment?

Mark 7:19 (are you constipated or what?) ... Purging all meat 1 Corinthians 6:13

Broma translated meats https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1033&t=KJV

Here the word “meats” is translated for the Greek word “broma” (Strong’s #1033). Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon gives the definition of broma as, “That which is eaten, food, meat.” So we see that broma in Mark 7v19 does not explicitly mean meat in a carnivorous sense, as in the muscular tissues of animals. The first definition of meat Webster’s Dictionary.

Definition of meat

1a : food; especially : solid food as distinguished from drink.
b : the edible part of something as distinguished from its covering (such as a husk or shell)


1 Peter 1:16, Leviticus 11:44 What is Food and what is not food, what is sanctified by the Word of Elohim, and what is not. 1 Timothy 4:5
 
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Der Alte

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Since you don't do links, and I don't answer diatribes that are unable to concisely make a point.
That throw as much as possible against a wall, (of text) hoping that something sticks
You evidently do not know the meaning of diatribe.

Diatribe-"a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something."
So please inform me whom, or what have I attacked forcefully and bitterly? Since you cannot do that you owe me an apology.
One should not accuse others of doing which they themselves have been and are doing.
Pick your favorite verse that provers that the lost tortured for all eternity for sins committed in
One should not demand of others that which they cannot or will not do themselves.
Less than 50% JewishNotGreek.com
What a modern Jew believes is irrelevant. I quoted from three unimpeachable historical Jewish sources; The Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. You ignored them and blew them off as a tirade.
Again I ask you to read through all of the articles here to see how unbiblical the concept of the immortality of the unsaved soul is. Immortality is reserved only for those who put their faith in Jesus (Yeshua). All the rest are destroyed (not preserved), (Matthew 10:28) after a period of time. They will suffer no more and no less than their sins deserve-then will be destroyed forever just as the Messiah foretold. And before you may falsely conclude that those who hold to Conditional Immortality believe the lost do not suffer at all for their sins, it is very obvious that they do.
  • "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." (Luke 12: 47-48)
    The future they face on judgment day is 1) suffering in proportion for their sins “then 2) destruction. Yet all the lost will not receive same amount of suffering for their sins before they are destroyed. God will see that they receive the exact amount of "stripes" they deserve. Some (like Hitler) will receive very many "stripes." Others will receive "few" as Yeshua (Jesus) says. After they have received their appropriate "stripes," then they will "perish" as John 3:16 states. ("perish" or "apollumi" in Greek: be destroyed). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23, Revelation 2:11), not eternal existence in torment. Ezekiel states clearly that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position.
    Also, in regards to suffering, scripture seems to indicate that what the lost have suffered here on earth, for their sins, may actually count as partial payment then (Isaiah 40:2). Additionally, when we look at what Messiah Jesus did for us, in suffering for us, His suffering took place in this world, so it is clear that His suffering in this world will count as credit for believers in the next world. Because we believe that Jesus suffered and died for us here (and that is the gospel), therefore, it is a safe assumption to believe that unbelievers who suffer terribly in this life will have that suffering count towards the payment for their sins. This alone helps explain why some (not all) sinners suffer in this world. Better to pay for it here than there. However, do not believe for a moment that those who hold to Conditional Immortality believe there is no payment for those who have done evil in this life. There will be! Justice, in its proper amount, will be served. No more, no less, for God is Just.
    Getting back to the concept of immortality. If you read John's gospel and think of the concept of immortality whenever you hear Jesus (Yeshua) speak of offering "life," it will make complete sense. I challenge you to read John's gospel and mentally insert the concept of "immortality" whenever you read of Jesus (Yeshua) offering "life." It makes complete sense.
    Interestingly enough, it was the serpent who was first to suggest that sinners would not die, "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4). Sadly, this is the same lie being told today, that everyone lives forever. Therefore, apart from the gospel, there is no immortality. Please read next chapter: Are all souls born immortal?
    www.zianet.com
    Respected Messianic Rabbi, Loren Jacobs also correctly states:
    The human soul is not immortal. The Torah teaches us that in the beginning man was banished from the Garden of Eden and forbidden to eat from the Tree of Life, so that he would not live forever, so that he would not be immortal. Mankind is headed toward death-the first death, followed by the Second Death. He is not, by nature, immortal. In 1 Timothy 6:15 16, Paul says that God alone possesses immortality-not us. In 1 Corinthians 15:53 the great Rabbi teaches that the redeemed will not become immortal until the time of their resurrection. "For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality." In other words, immortality is a gift of God which He gives in His grace to the redeemed at the time of their resurrection. In 2 Timothy 1:10, Paul states that because of the appearing of our Savior, Messiah Yeshua, He has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel. It is Yeshua who brings immortality to those who receive the Message of Salvation that He alone offers. There is no need to believe that most human beings will suffer eternally in hell if the human soul is not intrinsically immortal-and it isn't.
    Source: What I Believe, What I Reject, Rabbi Loren
    Another important point. In John 3:16, the word "perish" in the Greek is "apollumi." It is correctly translated many other times as "destroy" throughout the New Testament. Therefore, let's correctly understand John 3:16 as follows:
    "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish (Gk: apollumi; be destroyed), but have everlasting life (i.e. immortality-knowing God).
    Therefore, the proper biblical question is not, "Where will you be in eternity?" but "Will you have an eternity?"
    Sadly, most of humanity will be destroyed on Judgment Day. They will not gain immortality. They will not gain life. Jesus states this plainly, "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." John 12:25. It is life itself that we can "keep" or "lose." As a matter of fact God's choice to us is always "life" or "death" never "life in bliss" or "life in eternal torment." He always urges us to "choose life."
    Scripturally, the choice is between destruction (not preservation in torment) and life!
    (see Matthew 7:13-14, Romans 8:13, Galatians 6:8)
    This is why Jesus (Yeshua) and the apostles and the Psalmist can all state:
    James 4:12-"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy..."
    Matthew 7:13-14-"Broad the road that leads to destruction..."
    2 Thessalonians 1:9-"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction"
    Philippians 3:19-"Whose end is destruction"
    Galatians 6:8-"...from that nature will reap destruction..."
    Psalm 92:7-"...it is that they (i.e. all evil doers) shall be destroyed forever"
  • You quoted at least 21 verses in this post. You blew off all the scripture I quoted and called my post a tirade and a wall of text. Then you demanded that I quote only one verse. Based on your action this post should be called a tirade and a wall of text.
    Everything in my post which was not a quote from scripture or a cited source was my own words. OTOH this post is virtually nothing but copy/paste from the gurus you follow.
 
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Der Alte

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No. You have to make use of an unfamiliar term only shows your lack of an valid argument.
Put very plainly aiōnios is an adjective meaning “eternal, perpetual.” Among classical writers this especially refers to “endless time,” a period of time lasting “for an age” (Liddell-Scott). Together with aiōn (163) the term acquired philosophical overtones, especially beginning in the writings of Plato who developed the term along lines of “super-time, an idea of time in itself” (Guhrt, “Time,” Colin Brown, 3:827). Later, individuals and groups adopted this concept; this opened the door for even further speculations about time (ibid.). (See article on aiōn.)
Despite the rather singular meaning of aiōnios in both Biblical and nonbiblical sources, a fundamental difference exists between the classical/philosophical Greek concept of “eternity” and the Hebraic/Biblical attitude. Whereas the Biblical concept of eternity is an eternity filled with time, “endless time,” the philosophical, Greek notion knows only a “timeless eternity.” In eternity there is no such thing as time— no such thing as past, present, or future, only an eternal now. According to such thinkers as Plato everything in the created order belonged to the realm of time, while eternity was the exclusive territory of deity.
Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Alpha-Gamma.
Greek Strong's Number: 166
Greek Word: αἰώνιος
Transliteration: aiōnios
Phonetic Pronunciation: ahee-o'-nee-os
Root: from <G165>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:208,31
Part of Speech: adj
Vine's Words: Eternal, Everlasting
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
We could believe this article and the sources it quotes and go on our merry way or we could consult other sources or even do a study of our own as I have done.
In the following twenty three verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described, by association with other words and phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26.

…..In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described, by other words and phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul evidently considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.
[Continued next post]
 
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