Why are highly educated and trained professionals refusing to vaccinate?

rambot · Oct 13, 2021

probinson said:
But the ThatRobGuy suggested that COVID cases are so overwhelming to hospitals that if you break your arm and have to go to the ER, you'll have to go somewhere else because COVID patients are taking up all the beds. Are you suggesting that is not the case?

In my province now they ARE delaying a lot of surgeries. I know 2 (TWO) people who were supposed to have organ transplants and one whose gallstone surgery was delayed until it was a medical emergency (potentially fatal that didn't have to be anywhere near that).

In areas with dense outbreaks, yes, some hospitals are getting borderline overrun. There was even a PSA a couple weeks ago, suggesting limiting your driving and any high risk activities because any severe outcome would likely not be able to be dealt with in the ICU (though if you could avoid the ICU you'd probably be okay).

probinson · Oct 13, 2021

rambot said:
But the fact that we DO care and the fact that the strongest research supports the use of masks,

Citation needed.

rambot said:
and that antimaskers politicized the wearing of masks

Maskers also politicized the wearing of masks. Still do!

rambot said:
It was the mask averse crowd saying " ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ someone's gramma's gotta die.

And it was the maskers that were all like, "We've got to protect grandma!" all the while people's grandmas were literally dying from isolation measures instituted by those who "cared";

The hidden Covid-19 health crisis: Elderly people are dying from isolation

ThatRobGuy · Oct 13, 2021

probinson said:
That would be true only if the vaccine reduced the spread of the disease. It does not.

I don't know why you're pretending that everyone who gets sick with COVID ends up tying up hospital resources. They don't. The vast majority of them are treated at home with OTC medications.

In my area, hospitals were never "overwhelmed". I had to take my son to the ER because he fell off his bike and they had to put a splint on his arm. This was in the midst of a "spike" of COVID cases in our area. We waited in the ER for 10 minutes.

And what of the unintended consequences of vaccine mandates for healthcare workers. Here you are worried about hospital resources while hospitals are firing medical staff because they oppose the mandate.

What is the goal? To say we have 100% vaccination or to reduce severe outcomes? Giving booster shots to 18-year olds who have an infinitesimal risk from the virus in the first place does NOTHING to reduce severe outcomes. But it sure looks good on the shiny PowerBI dashboards!

Linking it to the "spread" is irrelevant.

Nobody is concerned about the "spread" of the common cold, because when the common cold spreads, it doesn't strain medical institutions.

If everyone had the protective effects of the covid vaccine in their corner, I wouldn't care if the covid infection rate was 100%.

If you read some of my other posts, I wasn't entirely in favor of firing everyone who didn't have the vaccine. With testing and professional grade PPR, I'd feel more comfortable around an unvaccinated nurse than I would an unvaccinated Target employee.

Now, I'll 100% agree that prior infection should be factored in (even though that puts me at odds with many on my side of this debate).

I'm one of the diligent ones who gets my titers checked pretty routinely. I've had covid and I've had the vaccine. My nucleocapsid protein antibody score was better than my spike protein antibody score despite having the vaccine months after the infection (which would indicate that natural infection confers longer lasting immunity than vaccination).

But that's not the case for many folks...many are refusing to get the vaccine for political reasons, and don't have any form of protection (evidenced by the hospitalization numbers).

I've said in multiple threads that I'd be cool with a mandate that required either vaccination, or a positive antibody test.

rambot · Oct 13, 2021

probinson said:
THE SCIENCE™!

Question; can you point me to an RCT that's been done on the efficacy of masks to slow the spread of COVID?

What? In the article you JUST posted it had data reflecting that.

May I ask why you keep writing the "trademark" stamp after science?

probinson · Oct 13, 2021

rambot said:
In your articles in indicates that cloth masks ARE effective just not as effective as surgical masks. I prefer cloth masks because I'm not keen to contribute to the landfills by using exclusively surgical masks.

It's better than nothing.

Make sure you wear a ball cap the next time you wear a motorcycle. At least you have something on your head, and that's better than nothing.

Belk · Oct 13, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
If ICU beds and hospital resources were not a finite resource, I'd agree with you.

At that point, it'd be none of my business.

However, they're not a infinite resource. If hospitals are filled up with covid patients, and someone shoots me, and I need to go to the hospital for treatment, and can't get good care, or can't even get a bed, because their slammed with people who "didn't think it was real" or "didn't think it was all that serious", then that does have externalities.

What do you think of the argument that others not being vaccinated increases the risk of a vaccine resistant mutation?

Belk · Oct 13, 2021

probinson said:
Make sure you wear a ball cap the next time you wear a motorcycle. At least you have something on your head, and that's better than nothing.

You mean like the literal reason people are advised against wearing shorts on a motorcycle?

ThatRobGuy · Oct 13, 2021

rambot said:
Definitely we don't care; really hit the nail on the head there.

But the fact that we DO care and the fact that the strongest research supports the use of masks, and that antimaskers politicized the wearing of masks because it's just sooooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaard and then glommed on hard to poor research, sorta suggests that youre wrong.

It's strange.
It was the mask wearers I heard saying "I don't want old people to die".
It was the mask averse crowd saying " ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ someone's gramma's gotta die. This is America, I'm not wearing no mask".

And yet somehow....mask wearers don't want to help others. Yes. A clear understanding of the mask debate in America.

The anti-authoritarian aspect of the anti-mask argument can't be ignored.

As much as they like to bash Fauci for changing his recommendations on masks, their response to his recommendations was equally disparate/180'ish.

When news first came in early 2020 that covid was here, and Fauci was saying "there's no need to wear a a mask", people like my uncle stockpiled 3M n-95 respirator masks from Home Depot and started wearing them to protect against "The Chinese Virus". The moment Fauci became "at odds" with Trump, and started telling people to wear masks, my uncle's mask stockpile started collecting dust in his garage and all of the sudden "wearing a mask" = "conceding to the globalists who are trying to take our freedom"

rambot · Oct 13, 2021

probinson said:
Citation needed.

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
Now yes, I know, I would never ever EVER expect you to sully your algorithms by looking at the CDC website. So instead, I'll posted the citations and if I can, the chart with the results.

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Johansson MA, Quandelacy TM, Kada S, et al. SARS-CoV-2 Transmission From People Without COVID-19 Symptoms. JAMA Netw Open. Jan 4 2021;4(1):e2035057. doi:10.1001/jamanetworkopen.2020.35057

Lindsley WG, Blachere FM, Law BF, Beezhold DH, Noti JD. Efficacy of face masks, neck gaiters and face shields for reducing the expulsion of simulated cough-generated aerosols. Aerosol Sci Technol. 2020; in press

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Bhattacharjee S, Bahl P, Chughtai AA, MacIntyre CR. Last-resort strategies during mask shortages: optimal design features of cloth masks and decontamination of disposable masks during the COVID-19 pandemic. BMJ Open Respir Res. Sep 2020;7(1)doi:10.1136/bmjresp-2020-000698

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Chu DK, Akl EA, Duda S, et al. Physical distancing, face masks, and eye protection to prevent person-to-person transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis. Lancet. Jun 27 2020;395(10242):1973-1987. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(20)31142-9

Clase CM, Fu EL, Ashur A, et al. Forgotten Technology in the COVID-19 Pandemic: Filtration Properties of Cloth and Cloth Masks-A Narrative Review. Mayo Clin Proc. Oct 2020;95(10):2204-2224. doi:10.1016/j.mayocp.2020.07.020

Parlin AF, Stratton SM, Culley TM, Guerra PA. A laboratory-based study examining the properties of silk fabric to evaluate its potential as a protective barrier for personal protective equipment and as a functional material for face coverings during the COVID-19 pandemic. PLoS One. 2020;15(9):e0239531. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0239531

Rothamer DA, Sanders S, Reindl D, Bertram TH. Strategies to minimize SARS-CoV-2 transmission in classroom settings: Combined impacts of ventilation and mask effective filtration efficiency. medRxiv. 2021;

Mueller AV, Eden MJ, Oakes JM, Bellini C, Fernandez LA. Quantitative Method for Comparative Assessment of Particle Removal Efficiency of Fabric Masks as Alternatives to Standard Surgical Masks for PPE. Matter. Sep 2 2020;3(3):950-962. doi:10.1016/j.matt.2020.07.006

Clapp PW, Sickbert-Bennett EE, Samet JM, et al. Evaluation of Cloth Masks and Modified Procedure Masks as Personal Protective Equipment for the Public During the COVID-19 Pandemic. JAMA Intern Med. Dec 10 2020;doi:10.1001/jamainternmed.2020.8168

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Hendrix MJ, Walde C, Findley K, Trotman R. Absence of Apparent Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from Two Stylists After Exposure at a Hair Salon with a Universal Face Covering Policy – Springfield, Missouri, May 2020. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. Jul 17 2020;69(28):930-932. doi:10.15585/mmwr.mm6928e2

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Doung-Ngern P, Suphanchaimat R, Panjangampatthana A, et al. Case-Control Study of Use of Personal Protective Measures and Risk for Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 Infection, Thailand. Emerg Infect Dis. Sep 15 2020;26(11)doi:10.3201/eid2611.203003

Payne DC, Smith-Jeffcoat SE, Nowak G, et al. SARS-CoV-2 Infections and Serologic Responses from a Sample of U.S. Navy Service Members – USS Theodore Roosevelt, April 2020. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. Jun 12 2020;69(23):714-721. doi:10.15585/mmwr.mm6923e4

Schwartz KL, Murti M, Finkelstein M, et al. Lack of COVID-19 transmission on an international flight. Cmaj. Apr 14 2020;192(15):E410. doi:10.1503/cmaj.75015

Freedman DO, Wilder-Smith A. In-flight Transmission of SARS-CoV-2: a review of the attack rates and available data on the efficacy of face masks. J Travel Med. Sep 25 2020;doi:10.1093/jtm/taaa178

Wang X, Ferro EG, Zhou G, Hashimoto D, Bhatt DL. Association Between Universal Masking in a Health Care System and SARS-CoV-2 Positivity Among Health Care Workers. JAMA. Jul 14 2020;doi:10.1001/jama.2020.12897

Mitze T., Kosfeld R., Rode J., Wälde K. Face Masks Considerably Reduce COVID-19 Cases in Germany: A Synthetic Control Method Approach. 2020. ISSN: 2365-9793, DP No. 13319. http://ftp.iza.org/dp13319.pdf

Gallaway MS, Rigler J, Robinson S, et al. Trends in COVID-19 Incidence After Implementation of Mitigation Measures – Arizona, January 22-August 7, 2020. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. Oct 9 2020;69(40):1460-1463. doi:10.15585/mmwr.mm6940e3

Van Dyke ME, Rogers TM, Pevzner E, et al. Trends in County-Level COVID-19 Incidence in Counties With and Without a Mask Mandate – Kansas, June 1-August 23, 2020. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. Nov 27 2020;69(47):1777-1781. doi:10.15585/mmwr.mm6947e2

Lyu W, Wehby GL. Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US. Health Aff (Millwood). Aug 2020;39(8):1419-1425. doi:10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818

Hatzius J, Struyven D, Rosenberg I. Face Masks and GDP. Updated June 29, 2020. Accessed July 8, 2020. Goldman Sachs | Insights - Face Masks and GDP

Karaivanov A., Lu S.E., Shigeoka H., Chen C., Pamplona S. Face Masks, Public Policies And Slowing The Spread Of Covid-19: Evidence from Canada. 2020. Working Paper 27891. http://www.nber.org/papers/w27891

Joo H, Miller GF, Sunshine G, et al. Decline in COVID-19 Hospitalization Growth Rates Associated with Statewide Mask Mandates — 10 States, March–October 2020. MMWR. February 12, 2021 / 70(6);212–216

Chernozhukov V, Kasahara H, Schrimpf P. Causal Impact of Masks, Policies, Behavior on Early Covid-19 Pandemic in the U.S. medRxiv. 2020;doi:10.1101/2020.05.27.20115139

Guy GP, Jr., Lee FC, Sunshine G, et al. Association of State-Issued Mask Mandates and Allowing On-Premises Restaurant Dining with County-Level COVID-19 Case and Death Growth Rates – United States, March 1-December 31, 2020. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. Mar 12 2021;70(10):350-354. doi:10.15585/mmwr.mm7010e3

Leffler CT, Ing E, Lykins JD, Hogan MC, McKeown CA, Grzybowski A. Association of Country-wide Coronavirus Mortality with Demographics, Testing, Lockdowns, and Public Wearing of Masks. Am J Trop Med Hyg. Dec 2020;103(6):2400-2411. doi:10.4269/ajtmh.20-1015

Rader B, White LF, Burns MR, et al. Mask-wearing and control of SARS-CoV-2 transmission in the USA: a cross-sectional study. The Lancet Digital Health. 2021/01/19/ 2021;doi:Redirecting

Bundgaard H, Bundgaard JS, Raaschou-Pedersen DET, et al. Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers : A Randomized Controlled Trial. Ann Intern Med. Nov 18 2020;doi:10.7326/M20-6817

MacIntyre CR, Seale H, Dung TC, et al. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers. BMJ Open. Apr 22 2015;5(4):e006577. doi:10.1136/bmjopen-2014-006577

MacIntyre CR, Dung TC, Chughtai AA, Seale H, Rahman B. Contamination and washing of cloth masks and risk of infection among hospital health workers in Vietnam: a post hoc analysis of a randomised controlled trial. BMJ Open. Sep 28 2020;10(9):e042045. doi:10.1136/bmjopen-2020-042045

Shein SL, Whitticar S, Mascho KK, Pace E, Speicher R, Deakins K. The effects of wearing facemasks on oxygenation and ventilation at rest and during physical activity. PLoS One. 2021;16(2):e0247414. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0247414

Chan NC, Li K, Hirsh J. Peripheral Oxygen Saturation in Older Persons Wearing Nonmedical Face Masks in Community Settings. JAMA. Dec 8 2020;324(22):2323-2324. doi:10.1001/jama.2020.21905

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Mapelli M, Salvioni E, De Martino F, et al. “You can leave your mask on”: effects on cardiopulmonary parameters of different airway protection masks at rest and during maximal exercise. Eur Respir J. Mar 7 2021;doi:10.1183/13993003.04473-2020

Roberge RJ, Kim JH, Benson SM. Absence of consequential changes in physiological, thermal and subjective responses from wearing a surgical mask. Respir Physiol Neurobiol. Apr 15 2012;181(1):29-35. doi:10.1016/j.resp.2012.01.010

Epstein D, Korytny A, Isenberg Y, et al. Return to training in the COVID-19 era: The physiological effects of face masks during exercise. Scand J Med Sci Sports. Jan 2021;31(1):70-75. doi:10.1111/sms.13832

Hopkins SR, Dominelli PB, Davis CK, et al. Face Masks and the Cardiorespiratory Response to Physical Activity in Health and Disease. Ann Am Thorac Soc. Mar 2021;18(3):399-407. doi:10.1513/AnnalsATS.202008-990CME

Lubrano R, Bloise S, Testa A, et al. Assessment of Respiratory Function in Infants and Young Children Wearing Face Masks During the COVID-19 Pandemic. JAMA Netw Open. Mar 1 2021;4(3):e210414. doi:10.1001/jamanetworkopen.2021.0414

Person E, Lemercier C, Royer A, Reychler G. [Effect of a surgical mask on six minute walking distance]. Rev Mal Respir. Mar 2018;35(3):264-268. Effet du port d’un masque de soins lors d’un test de marche de six minutes chez des sujets sains. doi:10.1016/j.rmr.2017.01.010

To be fair this is only 65 studies and not 66.
There is a FANTASTIC chart that summarizes the results of all the data but again, you'd need to click on a [gasp] cdc page.

Maskers also politicized the wearing of masks. Still do!

Nonsense. Look at cultures where mask wearing is ubiquitous and nonpoliticized....Asian countries. Wearing a mask is a public hygiene step that can be taken. To refuse to wear that mask IS the politicization of the issue because you refuse to do so, not because of a health based reason but because of a political one.

If there was a movement across America for people to refuse to wash their hands after taking a dump, the ONLY arguments that they will be able to come up with are political ones.

And it was the maskers that were all like, "We've got to protect grandma!" all the while people's grandmas were literally dying from isolation measures instituted by those who "cared";

The hidden Covid-19 health crisis: Elderly people are dying from isolation

ROFL! And I laugh because you seem to think this statistic is SOMEHOW comparable to the number of elderly deaths from COVID[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

pacomascarot · Oct 13, 2021

probinson said:
THE SCIENCE™!

Question; can you point me to an RCT that's been done on the efficacy of masks to slow the spread of COVID?

Mask use during COVID-19: A risk adjusted strategy - ScienceDirect

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

Face Mask Use in the Community for Reducing the Spread of COVID-19: A Systematic Review

ThatRobGuy · Oct 13, 2021

Belk said:
What do you think of the argument that others not being vaccinated increases the risk of a vaccine resistant mutation?

Thus far, I've seen little evidence of vaccine resistance mutations. So far, our vaccines have held up pretty well against any and all variants.

If there were clear evidence that a variant emerged that completely bypassed the protective aspect of the vaccines, then I'd revise my position on that.

rambot · Oct 13, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
The anti-authoritarian aspect of the anti-mask argument can't be ignored.

As much as they like to bash Fauci for changing his recommendations on masks, their response to his recommendations was equally disparate/180'ish.

When news first came in early 2020 that covid was here, and Fauci was saying "there's no need to wear a a mask", people like my uncle stockpiled 3M n-95 respirator masks from Home Depot and started wearing them to protect against "The Chinese Virus". The moment Fauci became "at odds" with Trump, and started telling people to wear masks, my uncle's mask stockpile started collecting dust in his garage and all of the sudden "wearing a mask" = "conceding to the globalists who are trying to take our freedom"

ug.

I respect the story but in terms of "ignoring" it, I may differ there. Political decisions are not smart ways to make health related decisions.

rambot · Oct 13, 2021

probinson said:
Make sure you wear a ball cap the next time you wear a motorcycle. At least you have something on your head, and that's better than nothing.

I imagine this was an apt analogy in your head but I would disagree

probinson · Oct 13, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
Linking it to the "spread" is irrelevant.

Agree to disagree.

ThatRobGuy said:
Nobody is concerned about the "spread" of the common cold, because when the common cold spreads, it doesn't strain medical institutions.

But the flu does. It wasn't that long ago (2018) that hospitals had to set up tent cities in their parking lots to triage patients during a particularly bad flu season. Yet no one was asking for people to wear masks (probably because they knew it wouldn't help), or mandate their vaccination status everywhere they went to reduce the strain on hospitals.

Hospitals Overwhelmed by Flu Patients Are Treating Them in Tents

ThatRobGuy said:
Now, I'll 100% agree that prior infection should be factored in (even though that puts me at odds with many on my side of this debate).

On this, we agree.

ThatRobGuy said:
(which would indicate that natural infection confers longer lasting immunity than vaccination).

Careful! A statement like that might get you classified as an anti-vaxxer, or it might even result in a "misleading" footnote on social media.

probinson · Oct 13, 2021

rambot said:
May I ask why you keep writing the "trademark" stamp after science?

Because THE SCIENCE™ has become antithetical to science.

ThatRobGuy · Oct 13, 2021

rambot said:
ug.

I respect the story but in terms of "ignoring" it, I may differ there. Political decisions are not smart ways to make health related decisions.

Obviously not...but I was just pointing out how much of a driver 'political persuasion" is for some folks.

If Fauci came out tomorrow and said "eating cat poop is bad", there would be people who would would do it, and link articles on social media from some alternative practitioner touting "the anti-inflammatory benefits of cat feces".

"Rectal vitamin D absorption" became a "thing" on social media...so I have no doubts that people would do something absolutely ridiculous simply because "the authority figure they've been politically conditioned to dislike" said it was a bad idea.

probinson · Oct 13, 2021

pacomascarot said:
Mask use during COVID-19: A risk adjusted strategy - ScienceDirect

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

Face Mask Use in the Community for Reducing the Spread of COVID-19: A Systematic Review

Use of surgical face masks to reduce the incidence of the common cold among health care workers in Japan: a randomized controlled trial - PubMed

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/face-masks-to-prevent-transmission-of-influenza-virus-a-systematic- review/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05

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Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks in protecting health care workers from acute respiratory infection: a systematic review and meta-analysis

Effectiveness of Masks and Respirators Against Respiratory Infections in Healthcare Workers: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis

N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Laboratory-Confirmed Influenza in Health Care Personnel

renniks · Oct 13, 2021

mala said:
do you think the people who posted before you actually give a fish about real numbers or reality in general. they are either operatives, deluded or deranged. it's not worth trying to reason with such things.

Pretty sure this is called " flaming" and it's illegal here

probinson · Oct 13, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
If Fauci came out tomorrow and said "eating cat poop is bad", there would be people who would would do it, and link articles on social media from some alternative practitioner touting "the anti-inflammatory benefits of cat feces".

"Rectal vitamin D absorption" became a "thing" on social media...so I have no doubts that people would do something absolutely ridiculous simply because "the authority figure they've been politically conditioned to dislike" said it was a bad idea.

Likewise, if Fauci came out tomorrow and said, "New evidence shows that the only way to protect yourself from COVID is by eating cat poop", there would be people who would do it.

renniks · Oct 13, 2021

Brihaha said:
That is the best post of yours I've ever seen!

People will never take you seriously if all you do is mock, you know. After a bit they'll just ignore you.

Why are highly educated and trained professionals refusing to vaccinate?

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