Why are highly educated and trained professionals refusing to vaccinate?

[KCfromNC]

Citation needed.

Well, there's this - CDC: COVID Outbreaks Far Higher at Schools Without Mask Mandates.

The study found schools that required all students and staff on campus to wear face masks—regardless of whether or not they were vaccinated—were 3.5 times less likely to have a coronavirus outbreak by mid-September than schools that didn’t implement masking, after controlling for other factors in the schools.​

 

[KCfromNC]

Make sure you wear a ball cap the next time you wear a motorcycle. At least you have something on your head, and that's better than nothing.

I hope everyone else noticed this attempt to change the subject when it was pointed out the references didn't say what the post including them claimed they did.

 

[probinson]

...that is helpful to others.

Nope.

 

[probinson]

Well, there's this - CDC: COVID Outbreaks Far Higher at Schools Without Mask Mandates.

Emphasis added;

The findings in this report are subject to at least four limitations. First, this was an ecologic study, and causation cannot be inferred. Second, pediatric COVID-19 case counts and rates included all cases in children and adolescents aged <18 years; later analyses will focus on cases in school-age children and adolescents. Third, county-level teacher vaccination rate and school testing data were not controlled for in the analyses; later analyses will control for these covariates. Finally, because of the small sample size of counties selected for the analysis, the findings might not be generalizable.

Pediatric COVID-19 Cases in Counties...
​

So causation cannot be inferred, they included ALL children in their case counts, even those not in school in their assessment that masks reduced case counts in schools, they didn't account for vaccination rates, and the sample size is probably too small... BUT MASKS!

This is a joke. It's no wonder trust in the CDC has declined so much.

 

[probinson]

Also not true - Here’s how the most- and least-vaccinated states fared against the Delta variant

Fared. This makes it sound as if the delta variant is over. It's not. And the states that were doing well just a few weeks ago are experiencing larger outbreaks now.

And then there's this;

At the country-level, there appears to be no discernable relationship between percentage of population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases in the last 7 days (Fig. 1). In fact, the trend line suggests a marginally positive association such that countries with higher percentage of population fully vaccinated have higher COVID-19 cases per 1 million people.

Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States - European Journal of Epidemiology​

 

[probinson]

Emphasis added;

So, now that COVID-19 certainly appears to be waning fast in Japan, the question is: What did we do to accomplish this?

Well, we don’t know…

The truth of the matter is that from the beginning of this slide in cases until now, there hadn’t been any major change in behavior or policy in the country.​

COVID-19 cases plummeting in Japan; doctors puzzled why - Japan Today​

One of the great lies we've been sold by THE SCIENCE™ throughout this pandemic is that its outcome depends on us "doing the right thing". Lockdowns, masks, social distancing (which used to mean staying home when you're sick but then was hijacked to mean standing either 6ft or 1m away from someone depending on where you lived), vaccine passports... these things are the only thing that can save us, we're told.

But now we see Japan with a precipitous decline in COVID cases, and an admission that there was no change in behavior or policy. And no one can explain why.

Humans like to be "in control". That's one of the reason talismanic masking became so endemic. It gives you the illusion of "control", of "doing something". It's the same reason people bought toilet paper en masse at the beginning of the pandemic. Sure it was irrational, but at least you were "doing something". Bonus that it was highly visible, so you could not only virtue signal that you'd "done the right thing", but now you could also compare yourself to others, making you feel good about yourself that you cared enough to "do something" while others didn't. I suspect many of these people have a stockpile of toilet paper that may well last them the rest of their lives in their basements as well.

But as we begin to look back over the last 18 months, you see nary a correlation between lockdowns, masks, and now even vaccination rates and case counts. The closest thing we have to consistency is seasonality, which almost no one wants to discuss despite it being the best predictor of when the virus will peak next.

Hopefully some day we'll return to normal, where people realize that it's impossible to control viral spread by behavior and policy. Yes, you can take measures to protect yourself and others as we've always done with diseases, but ultimately, the virus is going to virus, no matter what we do.

 

[pacomascarot]

Nope.

What if you're wrong?

I'm asking seriously. Given that neither of us is a medical professional...what if you're wrong?

I've probably got a TON more scientific education than you can even imagine but I'm not trained in this field so I take the conservative approach. If I'm wrong I simply inconvenienced myself. What will happen if you're wrong?

 

[probinson]

What if you're wrong?

I'm asking seriously. Given that neither of us is a medical professional...what if you're wrong?

I've probably got a TON more scientific education than you can even imagine but I'm not trained in this field so I take the conservative approach. If I'm wrong I simply inconvenienced myself. What will happen if you're wrong?

Nothing different.

If you wear a mask, you could infect someone. Or not.

If I don't, I could infect someone. Or not.

This has been ongoing since late 2019. It's not like there isn't a ton of data to examine. And the "studies" published by the CDC are laughable on the topic.

As just one example, this study from the CDC claims that there was a decline in hospitalization growth rates associated with statewide mask mandates. They studied the period from March-October 2020. Here's what that looks like with case counts;

That's remarkable. The study says that hospitalization rates declined because of masks, and then STOPS evaluating data right at the time hospitalization rates skyrocketed in those same areas. And this with no change in policy on masking.

Yet I'm supposed to just to defer to the "experts" and ignore this. Nothing to see here!

If masks were the cause of the low hospitalization rates in the study time period, then why are they also not implicated in the time period excluded from the study?

Don't you want to know if what you're doing is actually beneficial? I do. I like to know that what I'm doing is actually helping people.

And oh by the way, "helping people" entails quite a bit more than wearing a mask while you get your groceries.

 

[pacomascarot]

As just one example, this study from the CDC claims that there was a decline in hospitalization growth rates associated with statewide mask mandates. They studied the period from March-October 2020. Here's what that looks like with case counts;

I am UTTERLY fascinated by you. You are spending SO MUCH TIME trying to research something well out of your skill set and finding those things which confirm your bias and assuming (unlike the actual researchers) that you cannot be wrong in your actions.

Utterly fascinating.

I worry about our country precisely because of people like you. People with limited to no experience in a field assuming that you can take the "easier route" because you accidentally stumbled on something that fits your bias while others say the opposite.

And all over wearing a simple piece of cloth on your face.

If you are wrong people get sick. If I am wrong I'm simply inconvenienced.

That....sounds...really messed up on your end of things.

And oh by the way, "helping people" entails quite a bit more than wearing a mask while you get your groceries.

How would YOU know what it means to "help people"? Seems to me your primary obsession is making things easier on yourself.

Good luck with that.

 

[probinson]

I am UTTERLY fascinated by you. You are spending SO MUCH TIME trying to research something well out of your skill set and finding those things which confirm your bias and assuming (unlike the actual researchers) that you cannot be wrong in your actions.

Utterly fascinating.

I worry about our country precisely because of people like you. People with limited to no experience in a field assuming that you can take the "easier route" because you accidentally stumbled on something that fits your bias while others say the opposite.

And all over wearing a simple piece of cloth on your face.

If you are wrong people get sick. If I am wrong I'm simply inconvenienced.

That....sounds...really messed up on your end of things.

How would YOU know what it means to "help people"? Seems to me your primary obsession is making things easier on yourself.

Good luck with that.

So... no actual comment on why the study excluded a time period that demonstrably disproved the study's conclusion? Just one gigantic ad hominem about how unqualified I am and only care about myself?

Utterly fascinating indeed.

 

[probinson]

How would YOU know what it means to "help people"?

Well, I know that it's not wearing a talismanic face covering so I can signal to other what a keen guy I am without actually helping anyone. That's kind of like people who re-post things on social media and convince themselves they've "taken a stand".

Helping people means you actually help them. A concept that seems lost on you.

 

[rjs330]

Yes, restaurant worker washing their hands after using the restroom is benefical to the individuals who wash their hands. It may either prevent them from getting or spreading disease. Or it may lessen the symptoms and prevent severity. That certainly is a GOOD reason in my opinion to wash their hands after using the restroom before returning to the kitchen. But it SHOULD be someone's choice. Not mandated by government. Because not everyone gets really ill, ends up in ICU or dies from it.

Not remotely the same thing. Nice try though.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

Nothing different.

If you wear a mask, you could infect someone. Or not.

If I don't, I could infect someone. Or not.

This has been ongoing since late 2019. It's not like there isn't a ton of data to examine. And the "studies" published by the CDC are laughable on the topic.

As just one example, this study from the CDC claims that there was a decline in hospitalization growth rates associated with statewide mask mandates. They studied the period from March-October 2020. Here's what that looks like with case counts;

View attachment 307164

That's remarkable. The study says that hospitalization rates declined because of masks, and then STOPS evaluating data right at the time hospitalization rates skyrocketed in those same areas. And this with no change in policy on masking.

Yet I'm supposed to just to defer to the "experts" and ignore this. Nothing to see here!

If masks were the cause of the low hospitalization rates in the study time period, then why are they also not implicated in the time period excluded from the study?

Don't you want to know if what you're doing is actually beneficial? I do. I like to know that what I'm doing is actually helping people.

And oh by the way, "helping people" entails quite a bit more than wearing a mask while you get your groceries.

"Studies" are endlessly contradictory. When this began, I searched for mask studies since I worked in a high heat, outdoor environment. It didn’t take long to find "proof" that masks, in such environments, "degrade performance" and "elevate the risk of hyperthermia".

It all proved moot because I was able to wear the mask down around my chin most of the time. Only when the Dog and Pony routine was required (outside higher ups visiting) did a boss occasionally motion for me to pull the mask up.

Especially in the environment I worked in, masking was a hygienic joke. There was no way to maintain "purity" with the constant touching of the mask compelled by the work.

There is enough ambiguity around everything human to allow both sides of an issue to play with the "truth".

 

[probinson]

Let's look at double masking.

Back in late January, Dr. Fauci said that double masking "just makes common sense". No one bothered to ask him why if it just made common sense we hadn't been doing it all along, but I digress.

Right on cue, the CDC did a "study" that "confirmed" what Dr. Fauci had said. It was a total joke;

The findings in this report are subject to at least four limitations. First, these experiments were conducted with one type of medical procedure mask and one type of cloth mask among the many choices that are commercially available and were intended to provide data about their relative performance in a controlled setting. The findings of these simulations should neither be generalized to the effectiveness of all medical procedure masks or cloths masks nor interpreted as being representative of the effectiveness of these masks when worn in real-world settings. Second, these experiments did not include any other combinations of masks, such as cloth over cloth, medical procedure mask over medical procedure mask, or medical procedure mask over cloth. Third, these findings might not be generalizable to children because of their smaller size or to men with beards and other facial hair, which interfere with fit. Finally, although use of double masking or knotting and tucking are two of many options that can optimize fit and enhance mask performance for source control and for wearer protection, double masking might impede breathing or obstruct peripheral vision for some wearers, and knotting and tucking can change the shape of the mask such that it no longer covers fully both the nose and the mouth of persons with larger faces.​

So the CDC slapped two masks on a mannequin head in a controlled environment, sprayed some aerosols at it and voila! Fauci was right!

Dr. Michael Osterholm disagreed and said that double masking might actually LOWER your protection against COVID;

"If you put more of it on, all it does is it impedes the air coming through and it makes it blow in and out along the sides. The fit becomes even less effective," Osterholm said. "Double masking could be a detriment to your protection."

Osterholm: Double masking could lower your protection against COVID-19​

Oh, who to believe? Mannequin heads with masks strapped so tightly to their "face" that they might not even be able to breathe if they were living, breathing human beings were better off, so of course the media news cycles breathlessly declared CDC Says Double-Masking Offers More Protection Against The Coronavirus. Except the CDC had said no such thing. The limitations listed in their "study" essentially rendered the results completely useless. It will work... maybe, but only if you don't have any facial hair, or you use these 2 specific (never named) types of masks, and you might not be able to breathe. But DOUBLE MASKS FTW! That's all most people read.

This is a perfect illustration of how THE SCIENCE™ has operated throughout the pandemic;

• Health "expert" makes some claim.
• CDC conducts hastily thrown together "study" to "prove" said claim
• The masses rejoice at how "science" evolves.

And then to top it all off, you're told, "You're unqualified to judge this!" when you question the gaslighting that is being passed off as science. No further expiation is given. Just, shut up and listen to the "experts" (which is somewhat problematic when the experts don't agree as shown above).

And no one will address this stuff. They'll just lob ad hominems and character attacks in your direction for daring to question THE SCIENCE™!

 

[pacomascarot]

So... no actual comment on why the study excluded a time period that demonstrably disproved the study's conclusion? Just one gigantic ad hominem about how unqualified I am and only care about myself?

Utterly fascinating indeed.

You don't seem to be reading what I write (and you don't really understand what argumentum ad hominem actually means).

I'm saying you and I are not doctors nor are we highly trained communicable respiratory disease experts. You have found some articles that support YOUR position and I've found articles which supports MY position.

Given that neither of us can make meaningful comments on the relative value of either position (and I've probably got so much more scientific training than you do and I'm not even trying to pick the winner here) it comes down to which is the most RATIONAL approach for us to take.

You say that masks are unnecessary. If you are wrong then people have died. I say masks are necessary and if I'm wrong I'm merely inconvenienced.

I hope for your sake you are right. Because if you are wrong that's going to be very, very hard to deal with. Trust me, I know guilt. I wish you the best.

 

[pacomascarot]

Well, I know that it's not wearing a talismanic face covering

Correction: NO YOU DO NOT.

You have some evidence from some studies that indicate one thing. NO SCIENTIFIC STUDY PROVES BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. NONE OF THEM.

I have data showing that masks DO work.

so I can signal to other what a keen guy I am without actually helping anyone.

Just stop this. I don't wear a mask for that reason. I wear a mask:

1. Because some (MANY) health experts say it is effective.
2. There are people out there I don't want to hurt and if there is a CHANCE that this is effective I will wear the masks. It is only a mild inconvenience.

Helping people means you actually help them. A concept that seems lost on you.

You clearly don't even know the FIRST THING about it.

A simple sacrifice like this is beyond you. Yet you claim to worship a diety who came to earth and gave the ULTIMATE sacrifice.

And you can't even wear a simple mask. Wow.

 

[RDKirk]

When news first came in early 2020 that covid was here, and Fauci was saying "there's no need to wear a a mask", people like my uncle stockpiled 3M n-95 respirator masks from Home Depot and started wearing them to protect against "The Chinese Virus".

I started stockpiling mask-making materials while Fauci was saying, "there's no need to wear a a mask" because I knew he was lying about that.

I understood why he was lying about that that, but understanding the reason didn't mean I was going to go along with it.

 

[probinson]

You say that masks are unnecessary. If you are wrong then people have died. I say masks are necessary and if I'm wrong I'm merely inconvenienced.

So, how many people have you killed with respiratory viruses over the years? Now that you know and understand your social responsibility to keep your respiratory viruses to yourself, will you ever remove your mask?

 

[RDKirk]

As the above study shows, evidence does not currently support the use of Ivermectin as a treatment for COVID-19, but it's incredibly misleading to call it "horse medication".

People are taking Ivermectin in actual "horse medication" rather than Ivermectin formulated for human purity and dosage.

 

[probinson]

Correction: NO YOU DO NOT.

You have some evidence from some studies that indicate one thing. NO SCIENTIFIC STUDY PROVES BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. NONE OF THEM.

I have data showing that masks DO work.

Red font. Bold letters. Must be serious.

Just stop this. I don't wear a mask for that reason. I wear a mask:

1. Because some (MANY) health experts say it is effective.
2. There are people out there I don't want to hurt and if there is a CHANCE that this is effective I will wear the masks. It is only a mild inconvenience.

Fair enough. Just don't mandate that everyone does it.

You clearly don't even know the FIRST THING about it.

With respect, you have no idea what I do to help people.

A simple sacrifice like this is beyond you. Yet you claim to worship a diety who came to earth and gave the ULTIMATE sacrifice.

This is literally the worst argument you make. You slap a talismanic mask on your face and convince yourself that you've made a "sacrifice".

I make my sacrifices in private, to actually help people.