Why are highly educated and trained professionals refusing to vaccinate?

[probinson]

Whatever you need to tell yourself to make yourself feel better about yourself!

Nah, you're confusing me with the maskers. They don't really care if wearing a mask actually helps anyone. It's a particularly beneficial talisman in that it satisfies the psychological need for control by "doing something" AND it's highly visible so they can show others just how much they care. WIN WIN!

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Interesting.

In 2008, the ACLU wrote a pandemic preparedness plan. It said this;

American history contains vivid reminders that grafting the values of law enforcement and national security onto public health is both ineffective and dangerous. Too often, fears aroused by disease and epidemics have justified abuses of state power. Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_report.pdf

If you would like to continue to discuss, please first acknowledge that I am anti-vaccine mandate, not ant-vaccine.

The difference between the two is only semantic.

It's like saying "I'm not in favor of drunk driving, I'm just against laws that restrict drunk driving"

The end result is the same...your personal view of whether or not drunk driving is harmful is irrelevant to the person who wants to drive drunk unless codified by law.

 

[probinson]

They didn't know that at the time they were issued. When a vaccine is new, you don't know if you're getting sterilizing immunity or protective effects against the most severe outcomes.

In either case, vaccination is still a win-win.

If the worst case scenario is "I'll get a mild case instead of a severe life-threatening case", that's still a net positive in a big way.

Sure. And that's why I'm not anti-vaccine.

But what justification is there for a MANDATE if the vaccine does not stop transmission? If the only one you're potentially harming is yourself by not getting vaccinated, what's the urgency?

As an example, an immunocompromised person is no safer with a vaccinated person than with an unvaccinated person, because that vaccinated person could be infected with the virus and transmit the disease to them. So what benefit does a vaccine mandate for all produce?

The mumps vaccine and meningococcal vaccine are in the same boat...I'm not aware of anyone saying "it's a waste of time to take them" simply because they they only "partially protect" for 30% of people.

I'm not aware of anyone trying to mandate these vaccines for every living, breathing human being on the planet.

 

[pacomascarot]

They don't really care if wearing a mask actually helps anyone.

You are wrong.

It's a particularly beneficial talisman in that it satisfies the psychological need for control by "doing something"

Is there anything you are right about?

AND it's highly visible so they can show others just how much they care. WIN WIN!

You seem to do fine showing off ignorance.

 

[probinson]

The difference between the two is only semantic.

There is a world of difference between being anti-vaccine and being anti-vaccine mandate.

I would agree that vaccines produce individual protection. Studies have shown that if you contract COVID, your chances are far better if you've been vaccinated to have a milder case. So educating people on that topic should be the focus.

However, studies have also shown that the vaccines do nothing to reduce the spread of the disease. In fact, the study I linked above shows that there may well be a correlation between high vaccination rates and increased spread of the disease.

Therefore, the benefit of the vaccine is in individuals.

You really want to increase vaccine uptake? Here's how you'd do it;

• Pass legislation that holds vaccine manufactures liable for vaccine injuries from the COVID vaccines.
• Acknowledge and accept natural immunity.
• Focus vaccination efforts where they would be most beneficial. There are still millions of those 65+ that are at elevated risk from COVID. These vaccine mandates will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to increase vaccine uptake in that most vulnerable age group, because the vast majority of them are retired.
• Stop boosters as the WHO recommended earlier this year. Instead, work on vaccine equity across the globe, especially to poorer countries where vaccination rates lag FAR behind developed nations.

If this all sounds "anti-vaccine" to you, then you have been listening to the propaganda for far too long.

 

[probinson]

You are wrong.

Sure.

That's why there are articles like these;

RIP cloth masks? Why airlines and governments are banning them

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/10/why-americans-wear-cloth-masks/620296/

Yet the vast majority of people are still wearing cloth face coverings. Why haven't they followed "THE SCIENCE™" and upgraded their masks?

Because. They. Don't. Care.

They put a mask on of any type and quality, and they feel like they've done something, and society has told them they "care" if they cut up their Guns 'N Roses t-shirts and put them over their nose and mouth. Bonus, everyone gets to see what a swell person they are. Pure virtue signaling.

Is there anything you are right about?

You seem to do fine showing off ignorance.

Ad hominem comments are remarkably convincing.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

But what justification is there for a MANDATE if the vaccine does not stop transmission? If the only one you're potentially harming is yourself by not getting vaccinated, what's the urgency?

If it stops the most severe outcomes, then it reduces strain on the hospital systems, which does impact other people. If you break your arm and need to go to the ER to get treated, do you want the beds filled with covid patients and them telling you that you need to find another hospital? Or do you want the covid infected at home drinking gatorade and eating chicken noodle soup?

The reason why we don't have the same measures for the flu and the common cold, is because when most people catch those things, they can be treated at home with OTC meds and getting some rest.

If the vaccines can accomplish "making covid no worse than the flu", then it'll have served its originally stated purpose.

If you recall, in the initial public discourse about the vaccine, the experts were saying they would be happy with a vaccine that could drastically reduce hospitalization and death, and if they could get a prevention transmission reduction on-par with the flu shot (40-50%) they'd be happy.

Well, we have that.

Granted, it was poor public messaging combined with the fact the vaccine vastly outperformed the original expectations against the wild type that 'spoiled' people so to speak. The expectation was never that the vaccine would prevent > 90% of transmission like it did originally, that was just an added bonus. And when it fell below that, people went into 'panic mode' about it.

I've had both the virus and the vaccine...there's a good chance that most people will get the virus at some point. It's advantageous to society as a whole that if/when people get it, it's something that can be addressed at home with some tylenol and bed rest rather than having to use up an ICU bed at a hospital.

 

[rjs330]

They didn't know that at the time they were issued. When a vaccine is new, you don't know if you're getting sterilizing immunity or protective effects against the most severe outcomes.

In either case, vaccination is still a win-win.

If the worst case scenario is "I'll get a mild case instead of a severe life-threatening case", that's still a net positive in a big way.

The mumps vaccine and meningococcal vaccine are in the same boat...I'm not aware of anyone saying "it's a waste of time to take them" simply because they they only "partially protect" for 30% of people.

But then again, refusing either of those vaccines wasn't some sort of "badge of political honor" like Covid vaccine refusal is.

You KEEP missing the point. I'm not really sure why.

Yes vaccines are beneficial to individuals who get the vaccine. It may either prevent them from getting COVID Or it may lessen the symptoms and prevent severity. That certainly is a GOOD reason in my opinion to get vaccinated. But it SHOULD be someone's choice. Not mandated by government. Because not everyone gets really I'll, ends up in ICU or dies from it.

I may hold the opinion that it is beat for the individual to get vaccinated. But that's MY opinion and I hear decision.

However, mandating a vaccine that doesn't actually prevent the spread doesn't make any sense. That's why we have a mimosa vaccine etc. It actually stopped the spread. In THIS case the vaccine is not the same type. So the argument that you are doing it or forcing it on people to prevent them from spreading it is fallicious.

Only TAKING the vaccine helps. So if I am vaccinated I should not worry about whether you are or not. If I force you to take it, then I am in totalitarian territory.

I got my my booster yesterday. I am not concerned if you got a shot or not.

 

[probinson]

If it stops the most severe outcomes, then it reduces strain on the hospital systems, which does impact other people. If you break your arm and need to go to the ER to get treated, do you want the beds filled with covid patients and them telling you that you need to find another hospital?

You're going to have to show me this strain on hospital systems with some data to support your assertion. If you read the articles during peaks in the pandemic, hospitals are always "on the verge" of being overwhelmed, but never actually overwhelmed. And yes, there are isolated instances of this overwhelming occurring. But they are usually quite short-lived.

Or do you want the covid infected at home drinking gatorade and eating chicken noodle soup?

That was me three weeks ago when I had COVID.

The reason why we don't have the same measures for the flu and the common cold, is because when most people catch those things, they can be treated at home with OTC meds and getting some rest.

That's exactly how I was treated. It's exactly how MOST people with COVID are treated. Do you know what percentage of people infected with COVID require hospitalization?

Is the entirety of your argument in favor of vaccine mandates that it will reduce strain on hospitals?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

There is a world of difference between being anti-vaccine and being anti-vaccine mandate.

I would agree that vaccines produce individual protection. Studies have shown that if you contract COVID, your chances are far better if you've been vaccinated to have a milder case. So educating people on that topic should be the focus.

However, studies have also shown that the vaccines do nothing to reduce the spread of the disease. In fact, the study I linked above shows that there may well be a correlation between high vaccination rates and increased spread of the disease.

Again, we don't live in a bubble.

In terms of impact on society as a whole, there's not a huge difference.

Whether or not you're anti-vaccine applies to 1 person, vaccine mandate involves 330 million people.

If you're against a mandate that drastically reduces the number of people from driving drunk, and a drunk driver kills one of my family members, the fact that you personally oppose drunk driving is of little solace.

 

[pacomascarot]

Sure.

That's why there are articles like these;

RIP cloth masks? Why airlines and governments are banning them

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/10/why-americans-wear-cloth-masks/620296/

Why don't you rely on professional sources?

Because. They. Don't. Care.

Like a dog to it's vomit you return to your folly.

Ad hominem comments are remarkably convincing.

Just an observation. You are attacking what I stand for non-stop and implying I'm simply virtue signaling rather than caring about others.

Of course YOUR insults are OK but you can't take it when someone questions YOU?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Yes vaccines are beneficial to individuals who get the vaccine. It may either prevent them from getting COVID Or it may lessen the symptoms and prevent severity. That certainly is a GOOD reason in my opinion to get vaccinated. But it SHOULD be someone's choice. Not mandated by government. Because not everyone gets really I'll, ends up in ICU or dies from it.

I may hold the opinion that it is beat for the individual to get vaccinated. But that's MY opinion and I hear decision.

However, mandating a vaccine that doesn't actually prevent the spread doesn't make any sense. That's why we have a mimosa vaccine etc. It actually stopped the spread. In THIS case the vaccine is not the same type. So the argument that you are doing it or forcing it on people to prevent them from spreading it is fallicious.

If ICU beds and hospital resources were not a finite resource, I'd agree with you.

At that point, it'd be none of my business.

However, they're not a infinite resource. If hospitals are filled up with covid patients, and someone shoots me, and I need to go to the hospital for treatment, and can't get good care, or can't even get a bed, because their slammed with people who "didn't think it was real" or "didn't think it was all that serious", then that does have externalities.

 

[probinson]

Again, we don't live in a bubble.

In terms of impact on society as a whole, there's not a huge difference.

That would be true only if the vaccine reduced the spread of the disease. It does not.

I don't know why you're pretending that everyone who gets sick with COVID ends up tying up hospital resources. They don't. The vast majority of them are treated at home with OTC medications.

In my area, hospitals were never "overwhelmed". I had to take my son to the ER because he fell off his bike and they had to put a splint on his arm. This was in the midst of a "spike" of COVID cases in our area. We waited in the ER for 10 minutes.

And what of the unintended consequences of vaccine mandates for healthcare workers. Here you are worried about hospital resources while hospitals are firing medical staff because they oppose the mandate.

What is the goal? To say we have 100% vaccination or to reduce severe outcomes? Giving booster shots to 18-year olds who have an infinitesimal risk from the virus in the first place does NOTHING to reduce severe outcomes. But it sure looks good on the shiny PowerBI dashboards!

 

[rambot]

Nah, you're confusing me with the maskers. They don't really care if wearing a mask actually helps anyone.

Definitely we don't care; really hit the nail on the head there.

But the fact that we DO care and the fact that the strongest research supports the use of masks, and that antimaskers politicized the wearing of masks because it's just sooooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaard and then glommed on hard to poor research, sorta suggests that youre wrong.

It's strange.
It was the mask wearers I heard saying "I don't want old people to die".
It was the mask averse crowd saying " ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ someone's gramma's gotta die. This is America, I'm not wearing no mask".

And yet somehow....mask wearers don't want to help others. Yes. A clear understanding of the mask debate in America.

 

[rambot]

That would be true only if the vaccine reduced the spread of the disease. It does not.

I don't know why you're pretending that everyone who gets sick with COVID ends up tying up hospital resources. They don't. The vast majority of them are treated at home with OTC medications.

In my area, hospitals were never "overwhelmed". I had to take my son to the ER because he fell off his bike and they had to put a splint on his arm. This was in the midst of a "spike" of COVID cases in our area. We waited in the ER for 10 minutes.

In our local hospitals 0 COVID cases went through the emergency room.

I had orthopedic surgery in April of this last year. Had to stay overnight in the orthopedic unit. There were no COVID cases there either.
On the orthopedic unit.

 

[probinson]

Why don't you rely on professional sources?

Are you suggesting that the articles I posted are incorrect? What specifically in the articles do you object to?

 

[pacomascarot]

Are you suggesting that the articles I posted are incorrect? What specifically in the articles do you object to?

I'm making no judgement on the articles you posted. I just prefer to get my science from actual science sources. I understand that if you aren't trained in the sciences you probably prefer it to be pre-digested for you and summarized by someone else.

 

[probinson]

In our local hospitals 0 COVID cases went through the emergency room.

I had orthopedic surgery in April of this last year. Had to stay overnight in the orthopedic unit. There were no COVID cases there either.
On the orthopedic unit.

But the ThatRobGuy suggested that COVID cases are so overwhelming to hospitals that if you break your arm and have to go to the ER, you'll have to go somewhere else because COVID patients are taking up all the beds. Are you suggesting that is not the case?

 

[probinson]

I just prefer to get my science from actual science sources.

THE SCIENCE™!

Question; can you point me to an RCT that's been done on the efficacy of masks to slow the spread of COVID?

 

[rambot]

Sure.

That's why there are articles like these;

RIP cloth masks? Why airlines and governments are banning them

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/10/why-americans-wear-cloth-masks/620296/

Yet the vast majority of people are still wearing cloth face coverings. Why haven't they followed "THE SCIENCE™" and upgraded their masks?

Because. They. Don't. Care.

They put a mask on of any type and quality, and they feel like they've done something, and society has told them they "care" if they cut up their Guns 'N Roses t-shirts and put them over their nose and mouth. Bonus, everyone gets to see what a swell person they are. Pure virtue signaling.



Ad hominem comments are remarkably convincing.

In your articles in indicates that cloth masks ARE effective just not as effective as surgical masks. I prefer cloth masks because I'm not keen to contribute to the landfills by using exclusively surgical masks.

It's better than nothing.