Why are highly educated and trained professionals refusing to vaccinate?

[renniks]

It happens when one least imagines it would. You're going along being a good American and then accidentally you do something that benefits someone else without benefitting you more. That's something we try to avoid here.

Why not just say what you mean and mean what you say?

 

[renniks]

Given the national emergency (and I think COVID-19 is still validly classed as an emergency), I think emergency measures are justified that curtail our usual rights we enjoy in non-emergency situations. That said, obviously there are still limits.

And what would those limits be?

 

[Bobber]

Well the Covid vaccine is not a traditional FDA approved and tested vaccine that is the big objection I know of from a minister who is also a male nurse. The notion that there could be some kind genetic problem or other kind of unforeseen problem like cancer years or decades later from taking this brand new vaccine is the issue, because that sort of problem has happened with a few earlier vaccines.

I don't mean to bring in a silly television show from the 60's but sometimes I think of the old original Star Trek episodes like "Miri Miri" or the "Deadly Years" They need a vaccine for something and they need it NOW and the vaccine is untested? Doesn't matter! Kirk need to get up on that bridge and save the universe no time to be concerned about what about side effects. Trusting Doc Bones that he got it right must be a given! Maybe that's why so many trust vaccines today without them tested? They were raised on Star Trek?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Medical Professionals - Medical Doctors - now Pilots.

It's not uneducated people not willing to vaccinate.

Why are highly educated, very well paid professionals refusing?

Thoughts?

Well, you're lumping a few things together there that shouldn't be.

As I've elaborated on this before. "Medical Professionals" is a broad term that encompasses a wide range of experience and levels of expertise.

These articles elaborate more on the subject.
Covid-19 Vaccination Rates Are Poor Among Healthcare Workers - How Can We Do Better?

Study Finds 96% of Physicians Are Vaccinated for COVID-19

Among practicing Physicians, the vaccination rate is 96%. (and that 4% that's refusing includes quacks like Chiropractors - who there are a ton of all over the midwest - and are notoriously anti-vaccine, since they're technically recognized as "practicing")
Among NPs and RNs, it's >75% (and that was in March, certainly the number has increased in the last 6 months)
The rate drops off significantly when you get to LPNs and CNAs.

You can become an LPN in under a year, and a CNA within 6-8 weeks. "Highly educated" shouldn't be used for a credential certificate that says "Class of August"

A CNA and the Chief of Cardiology are both "Medical Professionals", but they're not the same thing.

Pilots may be "highly educated", but not in immunology and pathology.


That be like someone saying about me "He's highly educated in Computer Science with 15 years of experience, why does he not know about the proper way to repair a car transmission???"

 

[essentialsaltes]

And what would those limits be?

It's hard to cover all the bases for school, work, etc. but...

Given the current severity of the emergency.

It would be an infringement of liberty to vaccinate people without consent (even if they do not qualify for any particular legal exemptions).

 

[mala]

AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19
Apparently 96% of American doctors think it is wise to get vaccinated.

do you think the people who posted before you actually give a fish about real numbers or reality in general. they are either operatives, deluded or deranged. it's not worth trying to reason with such things.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Maybe that's why so many trust vaccines today...? They were raised on Star Trek?

...and were therefore inspired to get degrees in science and can appreciate both
-rational skepticism of asserted claims
-expert evaluations of relevant evidence

(speaking for myself, anyway)
LLAP

 

[ThatRobGuy]

IMHO,They are beginning to think for themselves.
1. The "vaccine" does not prevent one from catching covid.
2. The "vaccine" does not prevent one from passing the virus to others.
"3. Treatments for the virus are available.

1. It does, just not with a perfect efficacy rating. Much like there are people who were wearing their seatbelt who get hit head-on and still die. That wouldn't make "seatbelts prevent injury and death" a false statement. They do, they just can't prevent all of it.

2. Again, it's not 100% prevention, but there is a level of preventative effect

3. Treatments for catching a woodchip in the eye using the table saw are also available, that doesn't negate the fact that it's still better to be wearing safety goggles in the workshop.



And I do question the statement "they're beginning to think for themselves"...in fact I just don't question it, I'll say with a high degree of confidence that the statement is false in the majority of cases.

I find it ironic that "beginning to think for themselves" always seems to coincide with when they were beginning to watch someone else's YouTube videos. It's like people who fancy themselves nutrition and physiology experts who "did the research" after watching the "Game Changers" movie on Netflix.

These aren't conclusions they came up with on their own in the majority of cases. These were opinions they were basically force-fed in either conspiracy or alternative medicine echo chambers.

Which means they're still letting someone heavily influence their position on it, they've just chosen a different source of influence.

My signature pretty much sums it up.
"I did(1) my own(2) research(3)"

1 - watched
2 - someone else's
3 - inaccurate YouTube video

 

[probinson]

I wish you lived in the US and you'd understand that there already are vax mandates all over the place and have been for a huge amount of time.

I do live in the US. When people talk about vaccination mandates being "nothing new" they are lying. They reason, "Because schools and the military have had vaccine mandates, this is nothing new". But never before have you had to show proof of vaccination to go out to eat. So while the concept of requiring vaccination status has been utilized in limited instances, the scope of these new vaccine mandates is unprecedented.

You do realize that if one contracts it while vaccinated it greatly improves survivability and severity of the diseases.

Yes. That's why I said it.

Yes, one can still spread it, which means one still needs to accidentally CARE ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE. But that shouldn't be too hard.

What does that mean? If you don't know you're infected, no matter how hard you "care" about other people or don your talismanic cloth face covering, you're still unwittingly and haphazardly spreading your viral load everywhere you go. It's a plausible explanation as to why we actually see INCREASED spread of the disease in higher vaccinated areas.

We investigate the relationship between the percentage of population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases across 68 countries and across 2947 counties in the US.

...

At the country-level, there appears to be no discernible relationship between percentage of population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases in the last 7 days (Fig. 1). In fact, the trend line suggests a marginally positive association such that countries with higher percentage of population fully vaccinated have higher COVID-19 cases per 1 million people.

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7.pdf​

You are wrong.

Compelling argument.

The above study is not an argument against vaccines, because vaccines do provide protection to the individual. But it is an argument against vaccine mandates, as it illustrates that the vaccine is quite leaky in allowing spread of the virus to continue.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I do live in the US. When people talk about vaccination mandates being "nothing new" they are lying. They reason, "Because schools and the military have had vaccine mandates, this is nothing new". But never before have you had to show proof of vaccination to go out to eat. So while the concept of requiring vaccination status has been utilized in limited instances, the scope of these new vaccine mandates is unprecedented.

I would urge you to read up on some smallpox history
The U.S. Has Had 'Vaccine Passports' Before—And They Worked

The Vaccine Passport Debate Actually Began In 1897 Over A Plague Vaccine

And with Polio, the proof of vaccination cards even looked rather similar to the ones we get now.


But, I would ask a further tongue-in-cheek line of questioning. With regards to going out to eat, why would a group of people who apparently have such rigid standards about what they'd want to put in their body want to do such a thing?

Seems to me like anti-vaccine logic could be just as easily applied to eating out somewhere where you're not in 100% control of the ingredients or the process right?

1) Who knows what they're putting in that burger?
2) Have their been any long term studies on people eating at that new restaurant?
3) "I know of a person whose cousin's kid developed autism 2 weeks after eating there"
4) There's this stuff called "Fancy Feast" you can buy at the pet store that has many of the same nutrients. If people accuse you of "eating cat food", just confidently remind them that "it's fine, humans eat fish too, so this fancy feast shouldn't be called "cat food", that's just the biased liberal media trying to encourage you to eat at the new seafood restaurant instead of using this tried & true form of aquatic-based protein"

 

[pacomascarot]

They reason, "Because schools and the military have had vaccine mandates, this is nothing new". But never before have you had to show proof of vaccination to go out to eat.

What a silly point! What's the difference between proving vaccination to go to school and proving vaccination to go to a restaurant?

So while the concept of requiring vaccination status has been utilized in limited instances, the scope of these new vaccine mandates is unprecedented.

You are wrong.

What does that mean? If you don't know you're infected, no matter how hard you "care" about other people or don your talismanic cloth face covering,

Is wearing a mask really hard for you? Do you dislike the feeling or does it pain you to possibly help another person?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I fully recognize the differences of opinions.

So then why did you create a whole thread asking everyone about the differences of opinions? I think you recognize it but don't understand it, much less "fully".

 

[RDKirk]

Has there ever been one that has been this contested, though?

Yes. Swine flu, if you're talking about contested by the medical community.

If you're talking about contested by soldiers...well I guess those in uniform will know what to do the next time they're ordered to deploy. Just kvetch hard enough, and Republicans will back them up.

 

[probinson]

I would urge you to read up on some smallpox history
The U.S. Has Had 'Vaccine Passports' Before—And They Worked

The Vaccine Passport Debate Actually Began In 1897 Over A Plague Vaccine

Interesting.

In 2008, the ACLU wrote a pandemic preparedness plan. It said this;

American history contains vivid reminders that grafting the values of law enforcement and national security onto public health is both ineffective and dangerous. Too often, fears aroused by disease and epidemics have justified abuses of state power. Highly discriminatory and forcible vaccination and quarantine measures adopted in response to outbreaks of the plague and smallpox over the past century have consistently accelerated rather than slowed the spread of disease, while fomenting public distrust and, in some cases, riots.

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/privacy/pemic_report.pdf​

Seems to me like anti-vaccine logic ...

If you would like to continue to discuss, please first acknowledge that I am anti-vaccine mandate, not ant-vaccine.

 

[probinson]

What a silly point! What's the difference between proving vaccination to go to school and proving vaccination to go to a restaurant?

You really don't know the difference?

Is wearing a mask really hard for you? Do you dislike the feeling or does it pain you to possibly help another person?

No, I just prefer not to virtue signal, pretending like I'm helping another person. I like to ensure that what I'm doing to help another person is ACTUALLY helping another person.

Also, I noticed that you completely disregarded the data I provided that showed there is no correlation between vaccination rates and disease spread.

 

[probinson]

And with Polio, the proof of vaccination cards even looked rather similar to the ones we get now.

Polio vaccines prevent the spread of the disease. COVID vaccines do not. Similarities in vaccination card aesthetics notwithstanding.

 

[Brihaha]

do you think the people who posted before you actually give a fish about real numbers or reality in general. they are either operatives, deluded or deranged. it's not worth trying to reason with such things.

I am teaching myself to detach from those who seem allergic to reality. I leave a token reply now and again but I don't stick around to argue with em anymore. My three teenagers weren't as stubborn as adults who refuse to educate themselves today.

 

[Brihaha]

Why not just say what you mean and mean what you say?

That is the best post of yours I've ever seen!

 

[pacomascarot]

No, I just prefer not to virtue signal, pretending like I'm helping another person.

Whatever you need to tell yourself to make yourself feel better about yourself! Are you a trained medical professional/researcher? I bet you aren't.

I like to ensure that what I'm doing to help another person is ACTUALLY helping another person.

I bet.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Polio vaccines produce sterilizing immunity. COVID vaccines do not. Similarities in vaccination card aesthetics notwithstanding.

They didn't know that at the time they were issued. When a vaccine is new, you don't know if you're getting sterilizing immunity or protective effects against the most severe outcomes.

In either case, vaccination is still a win-win.

If the worst case scenario is "I'll get a mild case instead of a severe life-threatening case", that's still a net positive in a big way.

The mumps vaccine and meningococcal vaccine are in the same boat...I'm not aware of anyone saying "it's a waste of time to take them" simply because they they only "partially protect" for 30% of people.

But then again, refusing either of those vaccines wasn't some sort of "badge of political honor" like Covid vaccine refusal is.