Why are Christians against Israel?

SolomonVII

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Your post seems to forget the continuing occupation of Palestine, destruction of Palestinian homes and the killing of its people, it's attacks on the United States both directly (U.S.S Liberty) and also through espionage (Jonathan Pollard, who Israel continuously asks clemency for). Also, various assassination attempts on world leaders and international provocation isn't a great thing either. All of this justified using Holy Scriptures by Israeli political and religious leaders, which completely blasphemes God.
The USS Liberty?
Really?

There is nothing in your post to take seriously.

You wasted my time drawing my attention to it.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Who are these Nobel Prize Winners and what are their climate science qualifications? And please don't ask me to look it up in the article. Since you, as a responsible poster, have read the article, you can tell us. The burden of proof is on you (as the person who made the specific claim about these Nobel prize winners)
Here is one...

 
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expos4ever

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About Daniel 7. Here is a snippet of Mark 14 as Jesus faces off with Caiaphus:

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

Why is Caiaphus so upset? It is, in large measure because Jesus is quoting this from Daniel 7:

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed

Caiaphus understands that Jesus is claiming to be this son of man figure who shares God's glory! No wonder he was livid and accused Jesus of blasphemy.

My only point here is this "coming on the clouds" is:

1. An upward motion into heaven, not a descent (e.g. to return);
2. It has already happened - Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see this happen! Unless Caiaphus is still alive, this ascent has already happened.

Jesus is, of course, not talking about a return to rapture the church - He is instead predicting His own resurrection from the dead and His victorious ascent into heaven.

And witness this, Caiaphus certainly does - Jesus is raised and then ascends to the Father some 40 days later.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Please explain yourself a little more. Are you saying that the climate science experts have a financial motive to lie to us? What is that motive and why does it not distort their other findings?


Completely and obviously irrelevant. So Al Gore is a hypocrite - how does this evidence that the scientists are wrong?
How many of these scientists make their living from promoting this climate theory. If they denied it, would they receive further funding? It's the same trap that evolution scientists find themselves in... they must continue the lie or have no reason for their work.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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In my opinion, the west should keep out of it. They have done nothing due to the simple fact that they, the west, have ulterior selfish motivations.

The reason that I believe that this state of Israel IS the chosen state, is due to the simple fact of the miraculous obstacles and events that have occurred in order to get them to where they are.

Israel did not always look like a state that was following God.. nothing is new. However, no matter how ragtag and bumbling this state seems to be to our human wisdom.... God's plan will come to fruition.
The whole reason for Israel existing in the first place was for British/American interests in the region.
 
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expos4ever

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Here is one...
I see no evidence of qualifications as an expert in climate science. From wikipedia:

Ivar Giaever (Norwegian: Giæver, IPA: [ˈiːvɑr ˈjeːvər]; born April 5, 1929) is a Norwegian-American physicist who shared the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1973 with Leo Esaki and Brian Josephson "for their discoveries regarding tunnelling phenomena in solids".[1] Giaever's share of the prize was specifically for his "experimental discoveries regarding tunnelling phenomena in superconductors".[2] Giaever is an institute professor emeritus at the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, a professor-at-large at the University of Oslo, and the president of Applied Biophysics

Deniers do this all the time - cite people with admittedly glowing credentials.

Problem is - these are the wrong credentials.
 
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expos4ever

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How many of these scientists make their living from promoting this climate theory. If they denied it, would they receive further funding? It's the same trap that evolution scientists find themselves in... they must continue the lie or have no reason for their work.
I suspect I know how this will go. You will point out that the climate change issue actually creates an industry of its own.

Probably true. Just as discovery that smoking causes cancer created jobs and funding for people to explore this problem further.

Do you distrust the findings of the scientists about smoking causing cancer? I will be interested to read your reply.
 
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expos4ever

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It is the height of rudeness to continue to carry on a conversation about global warming here.
People have no respect.
Ok fair enough, I forgot my promise to drop this. I will post nothing further about global warming in this thread.
 
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Creech

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Occupation of Palestine? Can you show me any historical map where this place exists?

Killing of it's people? Can you document any attack on Arabs that was not in direct defense of Israel or destruction of weapons that would be used against Israel?

If you trace the DNA of most Levantine people, including Palestinians, the DNA goes back to show they are related to the most ancient of settlers in the region. Do you deny that Palestine had a historic population that included Muslims and Christians, who are BOTH being ethnically cleansed?

The aggressive forces in the Gaza Strip hide their caches of weapons in churches, schools, and hospital buildings. Israel gave warnings, in advance, that they knew that these weapons were there, that they were going to destroy them and that all civilians and military should leave the area so that they will not be harmed.

The Arabs then placed woman and children in these exact areas and blame Israel for killing them.

Yes there is proof immoral tactics are used by resistance fighters, but it doesn't excuse the actions of Israel. Your post remains irrelevant to the abuse and ethnic cleansing committed by Israel.



If the Arabs stopped firing rockets at Israel and bombing places where civilians meet... In fact, if the Arabs put as much effort into agriculture, education, infrastructure and technology that would benefit it's people, as they do in trying to destroy and wipe Israel from the map.... they could have a life that their families could prosper with.....like the rest of this world.

Yet, they seem to be stuck in the times of the bible... in times of archaic methods... doing nothing to improve their lives, improve their economy, improve their cities and roads... they are stuck in ancient times while the world around them tries to apease their selfish, ridiculous, narcissistic demands.

That is a very poor point, as Israel do not just defensively strike against Palestinians, but they continue an illegal occupation of their land, and their building of settlements, destruction of Palestinian homes, and the ethnic cleansing of both Christian and Muslims alike make them a very immoral force.


The USS Liberty?
Really?

There is nothing in your post to take seriously.

You wasted my time drawing my attention to it.

The deaths of innocent lives are always serious.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Most Christians aren't "against Israel", no more than we are "against Canada" or "against America" or "against" any other modern nation state. What is the case is that most Christians don't believe that the modern state of Israel is special. Modern Israel is not ancient Israel. It is not God's nation, it is just another modern secular nation state that exists in the world; as such when it behaves unjustly Christians oppose that injustice. The occupation of the Palestinian territories is unjust, the forceful removing of Arab people from their homes and historic lands so that Israelis can "settle" them is inhumane, evil, and unjust. It is about recognizing that Palestinians (both Christians and Muslims) have just as much right to exist as Israelis, and are deserving of basic human dignity and freedom.

Israeli aggression against Palestinians often in the name of being against terror, frequently results in the death of innocents. Not just Muslim militants, but civilians--men, women, and children; including our fellow Christians.

Palestinian is not just another word for "Muslim". Palestinians are a people, many of whom are Christian and represent the historic Christian presence in the Holy Land which has existed there since the time of the Holy Apostles. And further, violence against someone based on their religious identity is just as evil.

What many Christians are against is the Dispensationalist narrative which says modern Israel is God's special chosen nation and the result of fulfilled prophecy because they read the Bible wrongly where God promises to restore Israel--which occurred thousands of years ago when the Jews returned from the Babylonian Captivity. Because they mistakenly believe that blind support of national Israel is an inherent Christian virtue when at no point are Christ's people called to blind support any nation or government; our allegiance is to Christ, and we are called and commanded to love our fellow man and serve others--especially the least of these. The Church does not bow before any national government, it knows only Christ our King, and while the Church dwells as an alien in a foreign territory she is called to peaceful and civil living here on earth--which is why we pay our taxes and obey civil laws (Romans 13:5-7) as faithful servants called to peacefulness, as the Apostle says, "Insofar as it is up to you, live in peace with everyone" (Romans 12:18).

Israel is not special, no more than any other nation of the earth. As Christians we are called to be peacemakers on the earth, and to love our neighbor; and so the Christian must not embrace evil regardless of its form; we must condemn terrorist activity regardless of the perpetrator. Whether they be Israeli or Palestinian, Jew, Muslim, or even our fellow Christian. And to encourage peace, peacefulness, justice, and mercy as servants of Christ, children of God, and lovers of our fellow man.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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About Daniel 7. Here is a snippet of Mark 14 as Jesus faces off with Caiaphus:

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

Why is Caiaphus so upset? It is, in large measure because Jesus is quoting this from Daniel 7:

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed

Caiaphus understands that Jesus is claiming to be this son of man figure who shares God's glory! No wonder he was livid and accused Jesus of blasphemy.

My only point here is this "coming on the clouds" is:

1. An upward motion into heaven, not a descent (e.g. to return);
2. It has already happened - Jesus tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will see this happen! Unless Caiaphus is still alive, this ascent has already happened.

Jesus is, of course, not talking about a return to rapture the church - He is instead predicting His own resurrection from the dead and His victorious ascent into heaven.

And witness this, Caiaphus certainly does - Jesus is raised and then ascends to the Father some 40 days later.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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if you write down all the prophetic statements in the Bible about the kingdom and put them on a table like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle you can see which statements intersect with each other. Daniel 2 in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar describes the kingdom coming as a stone descending from heaven striking the image of the dream so that it was ground to powder and no trace was left and the stone cut without hands became a great mountain that covers the entire earth and this is the kingdom that will not end.

John wrote Revelation after Jesus had ascended and he writes of things still to come and the kingdom being transferred is recorded as a yet future event. Rev 11
5 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[fn] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[fn]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

you have quoted Daniel 7 lets look at it and see if Dan 2 Rev 11 and a few others might make some sense together.
“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court[fn] was seated,
And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

In Rev 11 we see the angels yet future proclaim the transfer of the kingdom. Dan here is a parallel account of chapter 2 In verse 11 he is referring to the beast, anti christ and the false prophet who are given to the burning flame. But the rest of the beast have now lost their dominion permanently but their live are prolonged for a season and a time. What does this refer too?

Rev 20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[fn] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[fn] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever

If you compare Daniel 7 to this chapter 20 of Rev you see the beast and false prophet are cast into the fire for 1000 years. It is here the beasts lose their dominion and are thrown into the fire in Dan 7. it is clear that Satan being bound is literal and the timing is clear as it mentions those being beheaded at the time of the mark of the beast would live and reign with Jesus 1000 years. Satan is then released to deceive the nations one more time. Notice Dan 7 said the beast lost their authority but their lives were prolonged for a season and time. That is 1000 years as a season and a time to deceive the nations once more. The culmination is fire comes down from heaven and Satan in thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet already are.


There is a kingdom of Jesus coming to this earth and if you care to read Zechariah 14 it shows the day all of this happens and the LORD is king over all the earth. This will tie it all together.
 
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Vicomte13

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We could just revolt and dismantle the systems, and start over .
That’s a bloody prospect, and it failed catastrophically the last time it was tried here. I think we just have to live with it.
 
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SolomonVII

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......

The deaths of innocent lives are always serious.

Some of us used to take it seriously when the latest Palestinian hero blew himself up in a busload of Jewish kids.

No there is a wall. That evil is being contained for the time being at least.

The deaths of Jews matter to some of us Christians too, as do things like freedom and civil rights and establishing a civil society in the midst of the ruined values of the crumbled empire that used to be there.

I am satisfied that Jews are putting their children's interest over the pretense of humanity that so many Christians, including the current pope, are displaying for the Jews here.
It is fitting that Iran was the latest venue for the Holocaust denial crowd. The crocodile tears of false compassion fall freely from those who deny the last holocaust while all along plotting the next.
There is no left and right when it comes to anti-Semitism. Fascist and Socialists join hands in their fight against their common enemy, the Jew.
 
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Creech

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Some of us used to take it seriously when the latest Palestinian hero blew himself up in a busload of Jewish kids.

No there is a wall. That evil is being contained for the time being at least.

The deaths of Jews matter to some of us Christians too, as do things like freedom and civil rights and establishing a civil society in the midst of the ruined values of the crumbled empire that used to be there.

Why does it have to be an either or situation? Why can't all inhumane, terroristic, and cruel acts be condemned? If this was a thread discussing Palestinian terrorism, I think most people wouldn't hold back in condemning it. But this thread is about Israel, which as a state is actively engaging in ethnic cleansing.

I am satisfied that Jews are putting their children's interest over the pretense of humanity that so many Christians, including the current pope, are displaying for the Jews here.
It is fitting that Iran was the latest venue for the Holocaust denial crowd. The crocodile tears of false compassion fall freely from those who deny the last holocaust while all along plotting the next.
There is no left and right when it comes to anti-Semitism. Fascist and Socialists join hands in their fight against their common enemy, the Jew.

I think it is important to differentiate between simply referring to Jews vs. Israeli Jews, and even then there is much diversity of opinion and thought. Is the Israeli state putting their childrens' interests first when they destroy and ethnically cleanse Palestinian homes to make way for their settlements? That seems to be putting their children in a far more harmful situation.

And what does Iran have to do with this current thread discussion? Nothing at all. This is absolutely nothing to do with antisemitism and has everything to do with continued national repression against an entire idea, many of them being our Christian brothers and sisters.
 
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JacksBratt

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I challenge you to provide Biblical arguments for this idea that the temple will be rebuilt. For my part, I will point out that Jesus repeatedly, if perhaps sometimes subtly, argues that He is the new temple! This is Christian Theology 101 - as the new place where people go for forgiveness, the Temple is rendered entirely obsolete. If one is to argue that God wants the Temple rebuilt, that creates a powerful contradiction in the overall narrative.

Maybe the Temple will be rebuilt, but, Biblically, this does not make sense.

Actually, the scriptures, OT and NT are not lacking in arguments for the fact that the temple will be rebuilt and the traditional offerings will resume.

Christ may be the new temple, in some allegorical way, but the Jewish people will build a new physical one.

There are already scholars and archeologists that are researching this. They have found that the location of the Dome on the rock may not be where the temple was or, as scripture says... be rebuilt in the near future.

How can the things described below happen if there is not a temple?


Matthew 24:15King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Or this:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-17 ESV / 39 helpful votes
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? ...



Or this:


Revelation 11:1-2 ESV / 28 helpful votes
Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

Or... this:

Daniel 11:31King James Version (KJV)
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.


 
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JacksBratt

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I think invoking "God's Will" is extremely treacherous territory. As Jesus said, 'offences must come, but woe to the perpetrators of those offences".
Assuming that God endorses, sanctions, or blesses something on the basis that it has happened is just a very wild and Unsubstantiated way to okay something.

All through the OT God told the Israelite people to go and take land that they did not occupy. In fact, they had to spend 40 years in a desert because they disobeyed Him on this very topic.

The genocide that God commanded was to purge the land of the blood line of the Nephilim. The remnants of the Genesis 6 event.

The kindest thing to tell any Jew is that Jesus Christ is Lord and King, that he reigns in heaven, and that all Jews are invited to the marriage feast.

Absolutely. Spread the gospel... for sure.

If we attempt to create a new gospel based around our private interpretations of prophesy, we are heading for catstrophe.

Again, absolutely. We should stick to the scriptures.

My own understanding of prophesy is that the Temple will be rebuilt, the Levitical order reestablished, none of which will be Spirit-filled, and then Jesus will return and destroy the Temple. Whether I am right or wrong is irrelevant though to the simplicity of the Gospel which must be told to all mankind, Jew, Arab, and every other tribe and type.

Well, that's as good of an explanation of the scriptures as I could give. My view may have some differences but nothing that others may agree or disagree about.
 
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JacksBratt

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If you trace the DNA of most Levantine people, including Palestinians, the DNA goes back to show they are related to the most ancient of settlers in the region. Do you deny that Palestine had a historic population that included Muslims and Christians, who are BOTH being ethnically cleansed?

All of these people are descendants of Abraham. The line of Jewish people came from Issac, who was renamed "Israel". Ishmael was the forefather of all Arabs.

Palestine was a place. It was not a people. The term "Palestinian" was a condescending name, give to the Jews, by the Romans.... The PLO adopted it to insult and shame the Jews...



Yes there is proof immoral tactics are used by resistance fighters, but it doesn't excuse the actions of Israel. Your post remains irrelevant to the abuse and ethnic cleansing committed by Israel.

Excuse me?

If Mexico, or Canada, started randomly firing rockets into the states, I'm certain we would see a different type of response than Israel has done in the Middle east.

The US would have promptly taken the Gaza strip back and shot or imprisoned the enemy forces... End of the problem.

In the meantime, if the Arabs did not show aggression toward Israel, there would be no aggression anywhere.


That is a very poor point, as Israel do not just defensively strike against Palestinians, but they continue an illegal occupation of their land, and their building of settlements, destruction of Palestinian homes, and the ethnic cleansing of both Christian and Muslims alike make them a very immoral force.

So, you think Israel should just pack up and leave? Or go back to the 1969 borders?

Seriously?

Look what happened to Ariel Sharon, in 2005 when he gave up the Gaza strip..... He was struck down in no uncertain way by God Himself.

The deaths of innocent lives are always serious.

I agree. So...... the Arabs should stop blowing themselves up in crowds of innocent people.

They should stop using their people as human shields.

Finally, they should stop fighting the Jews and learn from them.. They should start up factories, agriculture, build roads and buildings. It's 2018 and they live like its 1018
 
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