Why are Christians against Israel?

expos4ever

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I think there is a "not seeing the forest for the trees" dynamic at play. Each "side" slides all too easily in trading potshots over individual proof-texts. For example, those who believe Israel still has special status points to the "forever-ness" of the promises about land. And those of us on the other side respond by pointing out that the original Hebrew is best translated "age-lasting", not "forever".

But we forget the big picture - the character, shape, and trajectory of the broader Biblical narrative. I have become convinced that the story of Israel and the story of Jesus are intimately connected and form a single narrative. While I don`t have the space to make the relevant arguments, I believe the evidence is overwhelming to the effect that Jesus takes on the covenant obligation that Israel failed to fulfill and fulfills it Himself instead. In short, Jesus - as the truly faithful Israelite - completes the Israel project.

And this means, of course, that Israel retains no special status as of the Cross.
 
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expos4ever

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Within the body of Christ there is no Jew or Gentile.
Agree, and this is precisely why it does not make Biblical sense to accord any special status to the nation of Israel post the cross. If God still treats Israel as "special", this certainly undermines the central Pauline theme that Jesus has brought about the full unification of all people in Christ.

It certainly appears to me that you, and others, want to have it both ways. Naturally enough, you have to agree with Paul's "in Christ there is neither Jew not Gentile" but then you also want to vest the Jewish nation with special status. It is hard for me to understand how you don't see a problem with all this.
 
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SolomonVII

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I'm not so sure that ISIS has been blasted to oblivion. Let's hope that you are correct.
For sure, the Islamist form of Islam is still very powerful in the world of Islam in general.
But the Islamic state with real territory and a caliph is gone.


Again, I agree. However, it is not just the Palestinians that suffer. It is the people of Israel, and, arguably, the whole middle east and possibly the world that suffers from this constant unrest, violence and threat of war.
The point I really want to drive home is that Palestinians do suffer, like an alcoholic or a drug addicts really does suffer. It is like that Simpson's episode where Homer had his arm stuck in the pop machine that he was trying to pilfer a coke from. They were about to amputate his arm when they realized that the reason he was still jammed in so tight was that he was still holding onto the Coke. It is time for the Palestinians to let go of that coke bottle, and for the West to stop enabling their addiction that alone is keeping them from enjoying a normal life.



I agree. The leaders, for some reason, desire to hold these people to a life of archaic values and stifle all growth. It is like a land time forgot.
I think that most all educated people of the Middle East do have a modern understanding of the world. But even in the western universities that many have attended, they have learned to hate the modern world, even as they resent not having access to its benefits.


Agreed. And, Israel should not feel any responsibility to do so. Neither should the US or the UN for that matter.
Islamism and terrorism are cancerous growths that would starve off their own accord, if the US and the UN, and perhaps maybe even Israel cut off their funding of this cancer.
Every dollar of international aid that goes to Palestinian upkeep feeds the sickness. This conflict would had ended ages ago if not for international aid keeping the terrorists afloat.

If the people of that land want to fight for lives that are free of war and violence, contain the implementation of modern technology and follow a more civilized way of life where growth, jobs, infrastructure, business, agriculture, education and general livelihood prosper... they are going to have to turn from their support of those that oppress them from within.
Exactly.

They need to stop complaining about their situation being the fault of some other country, government or power.
As long as people see others as being responsible for their own lives, they take no responsibility for themselves.

This has been going on since the beginning of time. Wars are fought. Land changes hands. New boundaries are formed.... You pick up and move forward.

You don't sulk for generations and blame everyone else for your problems.

Even with the native people of North America. They were not the first to be here. They were violently and selfishly obliterated and it was shameful what was done.

However, this has been a pattern of the world we live in. Do they think that if Spain, England and France had turned around and went home, that they would still be here today? Seriously?

Some other government of superior technology would have came in and overtook this vast land anyway.

That is how this world works. Just because we have people who despise violence and want everyone to get along and be happy.... does not stop the powers that be from their machine of greed and destruction.

That will only happen when we live under the government, rule and kingship of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
In democracies, we are responsible for our governments and we all strive for our countries to be exemplary.
Israel too.
But to single out Israel as some sort of pariah state for acting within the bounds of normal behavior for any country is anti-Semitism pure and simple. It may be racially motivated anti-Semitism. It may be anti-Semitism rooted in post-modernist Marxist Identity politics. Either way, it is anti-Semitism, and needs to be called out as such.
 
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JacksBratt

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I see no evidence of miracles in that conflict.
You really should watch a video production called:
"In Search of a Miracle, Against All Odds"
It was created and produced by Bill M,Kay,
and American Trademark Pictures.

This feature-length version of Against All Odds: Israel Survives captures all the powerful drama and uplifting spirit of the stirring 13-part cable network series. Israel's rebirth and survival in the 20th century has been called a miracle. Those who were there cite their own experiences as proof... Remarkable stories come to life in gripping dramatizations, eyewitness accounts, and interviews with historians and religious leaders. Approx. 95 minutes.

Reviews:


1/ I gave the book only four stars because that have been hundreds and hundreds of miracles performed on the behalf of the Israel soldiers and some should have been included in this book.

2/ This shows how the God of the universe has had His hand on Israel, during all the things that have happened with these people throughout its history. It is definitely a miracle. We can watch as He continues to work with this nation.

3/ This video was very informative for those interested in learning about Israel's history in the last 100 years.
 
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dreadnought

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In light of President Trump determining that Jerusalem is Israel's capital and designating to have our embassy moved there, I thought most Christians would be happy and excited for the news. Maybe a lot of us are, as we wholly believe that Israel belongs to the Jewish people and has always belonged to them.

But I see a lot of Catholics, especially bishops and even the pope, who appears to be against the move and seem to care more for the Palestinian people.

As far as I know, there has never been a recognized country known as Palestine. The Jews have always said they want to live peacefully with the Muslims and they can share the land, but the Muslims appear to be the violent ones and want the Jews gone. When Israel defends itself against groups like Hamas, the world gets angry at Israel.

I don't understand why this is. Why is Israel always the bad guy? And why does the pope and Catholic contingent seem to support the Palestinians over the Jews?
Satan rules this world, as Jesus taught us, and a lot of Christians allow Satan to hoodwink them about this issue and that issue. I think Israel is one of those issues.

The Christians own a lot of territory in the world. So do the Muslims. The Israelis have this tiny area called Palestine, which the Lord gave them as an everlasting inheritance, and the world tries to take it away from them.
 
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Vicomte13

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And this means, of course, that Israel retains no special status as of the Cross.

Especially given that Jesus pronounced Israel's and the Temple's doom during his last week in Jerusalem, saying it would all be torn down, and given the parable of the evil tenants and the vineyard.
 
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Vicomte13

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The point I really want to drive home is that Palestinians do suffer, like an alcoholic or a drug addicts really does suffer. It is like that Simpson's episode where Homer had his arm stuck in the pop machine that he was trying to pilfer a coke from. They were about to amputate his arm when they realized that the reason he was still jammed in so tight was that he was still holding onto the Coke. It is time for the Palestinians to let go of that coke bottle, and for the West to stop enabling their addiction that alone is keeping them from enjoying a normal life.

Perhaps. One could have just as easily said that to the Irish circa 1799, or 1699, or 1599, or 1299: Look, you're beaten. Your land has been invaded, and your native leaders have lost all of the battles. The English have, in fact, conquered your land. You are a conquered people. Submit forever, give up your language and your culture. If you are good, you will be allowed a place on the bottom run of the society, as service people, etc., but your new overlords obviously have God on their side: they always win whenever you rise up and fight them. You are weak and they are strong. You are poor and they are rich. They have a world empire - you are little more than dirty barbarians clinging to superstition. Away with this Irish nonsense! Cast aside your dirty, defeated, ignorant, drunken and failed culture and submit to your betters, your conquerors, accept their leadership, and start over in their country, which this island has become. If God didn't want it this way, would he have let you be defeated?

The same thing could be said to the American Indians - and has been said! Look, you lost. It's not your land anymore. The whites who took what used to be your land are superior in every way: stronger, smarter, better organized. And God is on their side, obviously: abandon your failed gods, submit, and come into their society at the bottom rung, maybe you can work your way up, if you are submissive and peaceful.

The Russians essentially proposed the same terms to the Finns and the Poles.

Now, the Indians have never been successful at rising up, and probably are truly lost. But the Irish never forgot they were Irish, and they did eventually exhaust the English and throw them out. When Russia had dire internal problems, the Finns and Poles saw their weakness and drove them out and regained their independence.

The Palestinians are currently beaten people. To them, Israel is a colonial master that arrived asserting a land claim as old as legend and violently displaced them in the here and now (and recent past). They believe God is with them, and that their Israeli conquerers are evil. They are no more likely to submit than the Irish were, or the Poles. And eventually, remember, the Irish and the Poles, the Finns and the Dutch (ruled by the Spanish for centuries) - even the Americans and Latin Americans - threw off their masters. The slaves, of America and of Egypt, were eventually freed.

From their perspective, the Palestinians are the slaves, and Israel is Pharaoh. We all know how that turned out in the end. The Palestinians believe that their God will rescue them from the oppression they experience.

Whether it's true or not, that's what they believe. They're not going to give up Islam, and they're not going to give up their claim to the land. Like the Irish, they will abide in protest, and their conqueror will have to be forever vigilant and forever strong. For if they swoon for a moment, because of inner politics or external affairs, the Palestinians will seek to drive them into the sea, like the Irish eventually did to the English, and like the Algerians did to the French.

People don't give up and submit to their conqueror. It would be great for conquerors if they did, but they don't. Rome eventually fell and was torn into pieces, as old peoples found their feet again while new people hewed down the Roman armies.

In other words, live by the sword, die by the sword.
 
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JacksBratt

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The Palestinians are currently beaten people. To them, Israel is a colonial master that arrived asserting a land claim as old as legend and violently displaced them in the here and now (and recent past). They believe God is with them, and that their Israeli conquerers are evil. They are no more likely to submit than the Irish were, or the Poles. And eventually, remember, the Irish and the Poles, the Finns and the Dutch (ruled by the Spanish for centuries) - even the Americans and Latin Americans - threw off their masters. The slaves, of America and of Egypt, were eventually freed.

I hear what you are saying. However, the Arabs have vast amounts of lands and many countries.
The Jews did not "violently" take the land. It was given to them, any Arab was allowed to stay. Problem was.... soon as they were given the land, a multitude of Arabs believed that they were going to be treated as the Arabs would treat others... so, they fled......... with no need.
Secondly, as soon as Israel was formed, they had to defend their new land from 5 other countries, who disagreed with their right to this land....

I'm not sure where you stand on this issue. But, the Arabs are, by no means, slaves...The Jews would gladly help and teach them how to create life in the desert... agriculture and other methods of moving from the archaic life that they live now... toward a new and modern life similar to the rest of the world.

Not to mention that any Arab family that stayed in Israel or lives there can vote, work, hold office, get educated, own a home and be treated like any other citizen of Israel in all aspects of the life that this country offers.

As for the Arab counties which border Israel.. it seems to me that they are so fixated on the fact that Israel is there that they have lost focus on the fact that they, themselves, have vast expanses of undeveloped land.
If they were to put 1/2 of their time and money into developing these lands... they would enjoy all the peace and gratification that comes with progressive goals of non aggressive peoples.

This is not their mindset. They are poisoned, by their leaders, and are focused on one thing and one thing only.... wipe out Israel.



People don't give up and submit to their conqueror. It would be great for conquerors if they did, but they don't. Rome eventually fell and was torn into pieces, as old peoples found their feet again while new people hewed down the Roman armies.

I hear you... Problem is, Israel is not their "conqueror". Israel is far from it..

Tell me....

What would happen if all the Arab people stopped their aggression toward Israel and started putting the millions, if not billions of dollars toward farming, factories, schools, infrastructure and businesses?

Do you, somehow, think that there would still be unrest?

In other words, live by the sword, die by the sword.


Exactly.... why don't the Arabs put away their swords?
 
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Erik Nelson

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Isn't the heart of the issue that the 3rd Temple would replace the Dome of the Rock atop the so-called Temple Mount ?

Once the "ice is broken" and sacrifices resume, won't other "pre-Christian" temples seek to open for business as well?

Such that the 3rd Temple will be the first, but by no means the last, "pre-Christian" temple site to resume operation?
 
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Vicomte13

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Isn't the heart of the issue that the 3rd Temple would replace the Dome of the Rock atop the so-called Temple Mount ?

Once the "ice is broken" and sacrifices resume, won't other "pre-Christian" temples seek to open for business as well?

Such that the 3rd Temple will be the first, but by no means the last, "pre-Christian" temple site to resume operation?

How can sacrifices ever resume? The Aaronic priesthood is dead.
 
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JacksBratt

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Isn't the heart of the issue that the 3rd Temple would replace the Dome of the Rock atop the so-called Temple Mount ?

Once the "ice is broken" and sacrifices resume, won't other "pre-Christian" temples seek to open for business as well?

Such that the 3rd Temple will be the first, but by no means the last, "pre-Christian" temple site to resume operation?
Actually, the site of Solomon's Temple was, and still is, regarded as the spot where the Dome of the Rock sits today.

However, upon further research, the site is actually in an area called "Zion" or "the City of David" which is immediately south of the Dome.

The "wailing" wall is not a remainder of Solomon's Temple. The Romans made sure that it was totally destroyed and Jesus' prophesy of no stone being left on top of the other was fulfilled.

There are more and more documentaries on this subject, posted on YouTube.
 
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JacksBratt

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So do the Celts. That didn't make the Irish willing to give up their homeland.
Exactly...

However, who did the Irish get the land from. Who had it before them?

All governments of all countries and states, place their office on land that was, previously, someone else's land.

The way I see it... the Jews are like the Irish, in this story....They should not and will not give up their land.
Before 1947.. nobody wanted it.

Let's face it.... it's not about the Land.... it's about the fact that Israel is there and the Jews are living and breathing....

History tells us that the Jews took it before due to 100% of the fact that God wanted them there.
Today, it is no different. They will occupy this land for the rest of this age.
 
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SolomonVII

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From their perspective, the Palestinians are the slaves, and Israel is Pharaoh. We all know how that turned out in the end. ...
Not being a post-modernist, I recognize that as a lot of bunk that has nothing to do with the truth.
Palestinians are living that lie, and post-modernist hatred against Israel is what is enabling that lie to continue to destroy their lives.
The cogent point is that the post-modernist hatred of Israel is destroying THEIR lives. Israelis themselves had learned to adapt.
When Palestinians decide to recognize that Israel is a reality, like First Nations recognize the reality of Canada, and understand that there is a good life to be had in living within that reality rather than trying to destroy it, then they will rise very fast indeed.
 
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Vicomte13

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However, who did the Irish get the land from. Who had it before them?

The Firbolgs and the Tuatha da Danaan.

The Jews ceased to be the majority in Palestine from the 400s onward.
Christians predominated for the next 600 years, and then were conquered by Muslims, who became the majority in the 1200s, after the failure of the Crusades to defeat the Muslim invaders. From that time until 1800, another 600 years, there were three to five times as many Christians in Palestine as Jews, and 95% of the population was Muslim.

In the 1600s, there were only about 2000 Jews in Palestine, versus 11,000 Christians and 219,000 Muslims. Certainly one cannot credibly claim that this was a "Jewish land", any more than one could claim that New England, which still has a few thousand Mohegan Indians, is still Indian Territory.

The formal political Zionist movement began in 1897, with a book by an Austrian Jew. At that point, we should be clear, Jews had not been the majority of the population of Palestine for 1500 years, and Christians had outnumbered the Jews in Palestine throughout that entire time. Muslims had outnumbered both Christians and Jews for 1300 years.

In 1890, the Ottoman records show 43,000 Jews in Palestine, 57,000 Christians, and 432,000 Muslims.

Jews flowed into Ottoman Palestine starting in the late 1890s, and outnumbered Christians by a few thousand by the time the territory passed under British control at the end of World War I. But the Muslims outnumbered the Jews and Christians together by a factor of four-to-one.

Muslims outnumbered Jews until after the 1948 declaration of the State of Israel.

The Jews were given a country because of the suffering of World War II. There was no particular reason to give them Israel, other than the fact that THAT was the specific land they wanted, because of a claim based on an old book that the Western powers exalted.

Logically, the Jews should have had a chunk of Germany carved off and depopulated of Germans, and given to them, as the due to the victims and perpetrators of the crimes against them. Bavaria, for example, where the Nazis were strongest and where Hitler had his powerbase. It would have been reasonable to declare Bavaria the new Jewish homeland, as a spoil of war, and command the defeated Germans to evacuate Bavaria, without compensation, as the reparation for war and genocide.

As a matter of justice it did not make sense for the protectors of Middle Eastern lands to declare that a protectorate filled with Muslim people and culture, in lands that had been Muslim already for twice as long as Europeans had settled America, would now be a Jewish state. Of course the Muslims (and the Arab Christians) reacted very badly. Of course it's not a reconcilable issue. Of course the Muslims, the Arabs (including Arab Christians) are not going to give up.

What we've done is decide, for reasons germane to our own politics (to wit: many Americans favor Judaism because of the Bible, Western Europeans didn't care for Jews and welcomed the opportunity to get them out of Europe, and Arab Muslims were as good as Apache to the deciders), that Israel will be made a Jewish state. So it exists.

But it exists by force, as an imported colony of Eastern and Western European Jews who dispossessed the native Muslim population that was there, and that had been there as the majority for 750 years.

Israel exists because Europe and America armed and financially supported a Jewish military expedition to carve a country out of a Muslim land. It can last as long as the Americans and Europeans provide arms and financial support. The Muslims will never give up, because they feel strongly, morally and spiritually, that they have been wronged. And objectively speaking, they have been.

Now, the hope of the West is that the Israeli conquest will have been so strong and so enduring that it cannot be reversed. The Anglo-Saxons dispossessed the Celts of England, and the white Europeans dispossessed the Amerindians, and these faits accomplis do not seem likely to be reversed, although America may end up Spanish-speaking Latino, and England may end up Hindi or Urdu speaking, again thanks to unwanted immigration.
 
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